Talk:Malgré-nous

Question

"The Malgré-nous engaged in repression against French citizens, and were involved in massacres such as the one that occurred at Oradour-sur-Glane." Is this saying these guys were responsible for the massacre at Oradour-sur-Glane? That's not what I heard! Xyl 54 11:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Not quite sure how you are coming to that conclusion. As I read that I see nothing which makes the claim that Malgré-nous were "responsible" for the action by 2 SS Div. elements at Oradour-sur-Glane. It simply states that they (Malgré-nous) were involved in that action, and that statement is not an opinion, but historical fact. Malgré-nous served in the 2 SS Div. 'Das Reich', and were involved in not only the reprisal action at Oradour-sur-Glane, but in other similar actions in the general area over the course of several days as they moved into place in response to the Normandy landings.--Feldgrau4445 (talk) 23:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Strange arguments

"After the war, they were often accused of being traitors or collaborationists, although they seldom had other options than to fight alongside the Germans." Rather strange arguments and not objective ones. Everyone always has two options: to submit to invaders and collaborate or to fight the invaders. Every Resistance fighter had to make this difficult choice then, and they made their choice. Apparently these Malgré-nous people preferred other option and supported and fought for the Nazi. Leonid Dzhepko --Л.П. Джепко (talk) 08:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

That's rather easy to say now that you are safe and in front of your computer screen. I would love to see people who make those kind of declarations in times of hardness. I bet you my right hand none of you lesson-givers would resist a systematic oppression like the Nazis'. Resistance came in all sort of ways, and not only in the fighting with a gun way. In Alsace, people did not have such a choice. Resistance leaders and fighters were usually not family men. Malgre-nous were. A whole region was threatened and placed under oppression. It's not a question of fighting and saying "to hell with it". It's a question of realities. Those who resisted during the first years were systematically destroyed to an extent unseen in the rest of France. Alsace was considered ethnically German and as such was occupied directly, not controlled from afar. And those who resisted and ended up leaving the German army, look what they got in exchange: the great Soviet Union imprisoned them for years in camps.

The problem with the kind of declaration you make is that it doesn't take into account the complexity of things. If, in France, some resistance fighters might have gotten away from the Gestapo thanks to single gestures from the French police, Alsatians could not.

If you imagine that because people were forced into the army they did not do anything to help others, you are terribly wrong. My grandfather spent the war in Creuse, in the middle of no where in "free France", and he used to tell me this story about how the ammunition and food lieutenant of the close SS regiment was Alsatian and would steal food for the local resistance. I have personally encountered Alsatians forced in the SS who hid Jewish kids when raiding villages from the other soldiers, and Alsatian families who stayed at home, risking their lives to send PoW through the Vosges into neutral Switzerland, which then kicked them out into the free zone.

It's easy to take a gun or a rifle when your whole family is not in danger from it. It is less easy if your kid brother, 11 years old, can be sent in concentration lager for what you did. Could you live with that? And submit to the greater force does not mean supporting the Nazis.

I would like to remind you of the countless people in Europe forced into the German army because they were considered ethnically Germans. Would you say in their faces they were Nazis?

Because if you did, I doubt you understand anything about the war.

Sincerely, Acey Sieffert —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.39.196.120 (talk) 13:44, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

major revision

I just revised the article and added some material from the German and French wikipedia. I will try and find some proper sources when I get back to my desk next week.

Regarding the question of repression, I only know of the Alsacians involved in Oradour. I am not aware of any other cases of malgré-nous involved in acts of repression against French citizens.

Anyway, I will give it some more attention soon.

--Dodo19 (talk) 06:13, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Although it was a different battalion than the one responsible for Oradour-sur-Glane, some some Alsatian malgré-nous also served in the 2 SS Div. unit which was responsible for the reprisal action at Tulle, FR. [1]. One can certainly argue that these were just an isolated group of actions specific only to the chaotic days after the Normandy landings, and that is probably a fair statement. I would have to do some further research to see if there are any addt'l allegations of 'reprisal' actions or incidents which 2 SS Div. was in France after the incidents from 10 - 15 June, 1944. I am specifically thinking of the retreat from Mortain, and the Falaise Pocket time period. --Feldgrau4445 (talk) 17:21, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

I have taken the word "forcibly" out of "forcibly conscripted" because conscription is, by definition, always forcibly. By all accounts, from 1942, they were drafted much like ordinary Germans, the vast majority without dissenting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.61.212.198 (talk) 15:54, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

If by "without much dissent" you mean 40,000 of them deserting before or after conscription, 20,000 Alsatians sent to "corrective" Nazi camps and the building of the only concentration camp of France especially to house the more reluctant elements of the population, then yes, they pretty much acted like little sheeples once they were forcibly annexed. I would suggest you read historians David Kaplan and David Bell on that subject before making blank statements like this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.185.6.130 (talk) 21:58, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

24.185.6.130 (talk) 22:01, 28 September 2015 (UTC)sorry: blanket statements. Not very Wikipedia fluent, I don't know how to go back to edit. 24.185.6.130 (talk) 22:01, 28 September 2015 (UTC) A. Menard

Malgre nous an french nationalism

The view that every one of the population, wich was predomiantly ethnic German (94 % in 1910) in the Alsace/ Lorrain region was pro french and anti German is quite wrong. The mayority of the population was forced to become french again in 1919. The french side was well knowing why they didnt wanted a plebiscite in that area after world war one. Between the wars there was a strong pro german political movement directed against the french occupation of the region. So a lot of people welcomed the german forces as liberators from french occupation in 1940. So not everyone was a malgre nous. I think the most people had non political motives, they tryed to avoid being drafted into the wehrmacht because they didnt want to be killed on the eastern front. And desertation from the wehrmacht in great numbers only happend on the end of the war. Everbody wanted to stay on the winner side and wanted to save thier lives. Thats a more realisty view. Malgre nous is more a myth of the french gouverment after 1945 which should help to integrate the newly annexed alsace/lorrain region and avoid any debatte of the loyalty/collaboration question.--93.229.83.234 (talk) 21:58, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Please Germans stop spreading bullshit.

From a Lorrainer. 91.168.147.106 (talk) 06:09, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Final Remarks are vague and unverified

No reference to what the term invalids mean and no citations to pretty important statistics. Luclag1 (talk) 23:42, 4 October 2022 (UTC)