Talk:List of traditional territories of the Indigenous peoples of North America

Some comments on the article

1. It's a little unclear what is meant by "traditional" here. I take it to mean "where they lived until driven away or destroyed as a result of European expansion". It would be helpful to clarify this point, however.
2. The information would be better conveyed in a table, since there are multiple "columns".
3. The repetitive use of "Country" on every line is unnecessary.

Another point for debate is the obvious one: does "country" refer exclusively to modern urbanised nation-states, or can it refer to these lands too?

I don't particularly see why not, but I think there are better words. I prefer "nation", as "nation" conveys the sense of social, linguistic, and political unity while not having as much confusing baggage as "country".

This could be a uniquely Canadian perspective, however, as we Canadians commonly use the word "nation" to describe aboriginal territories, e.g. First Nations and Six Nations. --Saforrest 17:31, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Re: Some comments on the article

Thanks for the feedback.

1. The word "traditional" is not necessary, and I've deleted it.
2. If there's a clearer format, I would like to see the material converted to that. I am not yet fluent with the editting tools.
3. The idea is that these are typical English equivalents to the Native names, included along with other names for the countries, such as the Hispanoform "Papagueria" along with the Angloform "Papago Country" (both are attested). Some of these the "such-and-such country" names are in common use, such as "Iroquois country", "Cherokee country", and "Sioux country", with and without a capitalized "country"; and sometimes the name is preceded by "the", such as "the Cherokee Country". Googling will reveal that this is the case. This kind of name ("such-and-such country") is Anglo-America's equivalent of Anglo-Africa's "such-and-such-land" (like Basustoland, Swaziland, and Zululand), Hispano-America's "such-and-such-eria" (Pimeria, Comancheria, Apacheria), and Franco-America's "such-and-such-ie" (Huronie). While I feel it is reasonable to include the attested American English synonyms, some of the names in the list are unconfirmed (such as Ashiwi Country instead of Zuni Country) or artificial (such as "Abenaki-Maliseet-Penobscot-Passamaquoddy-Mi'kmaq Country"). Though the "country" part of these unattested or artifical names could be deleted, it might obscure the fact that this Wikipedia page includes only entries for territories and lands, not for peoples and tribes.

In regard to "country" versus "nation" - though popular usage has confused the two words, it is important to distinguish them. "Nation" (Latin "a birthing") originally referred to a group of people, while "country" (Latin "land spread before one") referred to a land. For more, see the Wikipedia article on "Nation" where this distinction is explicitly laid out: [1]. 130.86.14.71 23:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article needs serious format and content work. T Rex | talk 22:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: Cleanup

What format and content changes do you suggest? The most recent edit deleted spaces between entries in an inconsistent way, leaving some of the entries bunched together, and others double spaced. 130.86.14.71 22:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I went through and tightened up the spacing between rows, and bold-faced all of the first names. Thanks for the inspiration! 130.86.14.120 21:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps a table or something, something that makes it less cluttered. T Rex | talk 15:38, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Sources, urls, references

The article is a bit of a mess. We don't use email as sources, we should not have any links in the article itself, they should be inline citations to reliable sources by Wikipedia standards. I suspect there is quite a bit of OR here. dougweller (talk) 16:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Move/rename

This is, first and foremost, a list and should be retitled as such, and "countries" is inappropriate in many cases e.g. Skwxwu7mesh-ulh refers to "things associated with the Skwxwu7mesh" which only incidentally refers to territory/landscape (it also refers to the sky and teh water and air around them, as well ass their clothes and marriage customs....). One of the reasons I placed the OR and POV templates is, inddeed, because of this page's title, which makes presumption about equating the English concept of "country" (especially capital-c Country) which cultures and concepts which don't adequately translate. Suggested new title List of names of territories of indigenous peoples of North America - and the "Countries of North America" cat should be removed, which I'll do just now, as its definitions have a strict meaning (and Greenland's not in North America no more than Cuba or Trinidad...technically neither is Haida Gwaii, in fact...).Skookum1 (talk) 17:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

And, likewise, Tovangar is best translated as "the world". How about "List of names given by indigenous peoples of North America to the regions where they live"?--Curtis Clark (talk) 18:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Something like that...."list of terms used by the indigenous poples of North America to refer to the regions they occupy"? Gotta be something easier than that....and if Greenland and the Queen Charlottes are included then Cuba, Hispanolia, Jamaica etc should also be....Skookum1 (talk) 18:30, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

In fact, Vancouver Island, Newfoundland and Long Island, NY are also not part of North America....and re the first instance "Nuu-chah-nulth" literally means "along the outside (of the mountains/island)" and is geographic term, though used to mean the people, and like Haida Gwaii it is of recent coinage. the use of "countries" implies these were homogenous states/communities, when the opposite was clearly the case, at least in the PacNW (Haida, Nuu-chah-nulth and the Kwakwaka'wakw all warred amongst themselves, e.g., rather nastily too....).Skookum1 (talk) 18:32, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

No, they are all considered geographically part of North America as they are on the continental plate. But I agree it is a list and the title should reflect that. dougweller (talk) 18:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

I was just being nit-picky/absurdist about the islands thing...but again if Greenland's on-board shouldnt' Cuba also be, since it's closer? Not on the same plate, I know, but....Skookum1 (talk) 19:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to weigh in here, Skookum1, but from my experience Cuba lies on the North American Plate. Newfoundland, Vancouver Island and Queen Charlotte Islands are also considered part of North America because they exist on the North American continental shelf. The underwater plateaus and shelves surrounding Newfoundland (e.g. Grand Banks) are also mostly submerged landmasses of North America. Black Tusk (talk) 20:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Original Research

Kindly note that all the statements in this article that are not backed by reliable, verifiable secondary sources will be removed in the coming few days. If you do have secondary English sources to back your inclusions, please use them.▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ _―Œ ^{♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣} 11:41, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion, for a while now, that this page should be retitled to something like List of names of traditional territories of the indigenous peoples of North America. Wordy though it is, it's way more accurate, especially concerning the use of "country" in English, which connotes statehood (statehood in the int'l sense, not the USian one). A number of entries - many of them - I'm bothered by seeing things like "Tongva Country" when the name Tongavar simply means "the world" or "the earth" (with "Tongva" meaning "people of the world/earth"), and in the case of items like "Squamish Country" that appellation in English also and primarily refers simply to the environs and adjoining valleys of Squamish, British Columbia but not all of Skwxwu7mesh territory (which includes North and West Vancouver, the city of Vancouver and some of the Sunshine Coast, none of which are in the area meant by the English usage "Squamish Country"; FWIR the proper term is Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw although Uxwuimix doesn't mean "country", more like "nation" (as in people/government, not so much territory, which is included in the suffix -ullh, "things attached to/belong to", "ours"; it has a cognate in St'at'imcets (aka Ucwalmicwts) - Ucwalmicw - which has a similar meaning. Then there's Solh Temexw, which is the Sto:lo name for their traditional territory (but not for a "country"), but the word temexw is used in other Halkomelem-speaking areas, simlarly to refer to "land" (i.e. the terrain/place); in the Shuswap language there is temicw or temecw, which has a similar meaning. All of these refer to territories, NOT to "countries". As long as capital-C country stands in the list (and it is a list) the usage/context of the entire list is original research; asserting something like pre-existing countries rather than contexts which, overall, generally mean either "the world" or "the place where we live".....Skookum1 (talk) 19:38, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

A very good idea if we can agree on a name. Do we need 'of names'? Dougweller (talk) 20:48, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I guess not, but I'd included it as very few of these are English names, or even appear much in English (haudenosaunee being one of the few); we could do the change without the "names of" and see how it pans out - List of traditional territories of the indigenous peoples of North America may have to do; but NB sometimes as with Haida Gwaii (which as of impending legislation will become official, as is already Nisga'a Lisims for Nass territories in the Nass Valley and environs, and is also a term for their government, but Haida Gwaii does not take in all Haida territories. Also in many cases the asserted territories either overlap with or include territories of other people(s); and in other cases the idea of "nation" is a post-contact overlay for an ethnolinguistic gropu which does not respond to political/cultural reality.....one other comment, taht the bulleted form of the list is really quite useless for the casual reader, partly because it's alphabetized using names in the other languages; a table-ized form will work a lot better....too much work for me, but just a thought....Skookum1 (talk) 15:50, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

As you've no doubt noted, I made the change to the second title, just because it's simpler, though "names of" still strikes me as an appropriate qualification, unless the even wordier List of indigenous names of the traditional territories of the Native peoples of North America is used; seems way too cumbersome. Some way of sorting these by people/nation rather than by the indigenous names is still necessary, so that alphabetization operates by the English names of the peoples, ratehr than by names nobody will know how to look up....Skookum1 (talk) 00:12, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

follow-up comments - maybe List of traditional names for territories of the indigenous peoples of North America, because "traditional territory" and current territory/ies are often not quite the same thing; also noting re Haida Gwaii that that's of modern coinage and refers only to the Queen Charlotte Islands. The traditional name was something like Xaadayal Gwaiiy (it's on the QCI intro lede, whatever it is....), though that also doesn't take in Kaigani Haida territory (those on Prince of Wales Island in Alaska - though they, originally, were also on the QCI). I'll add Solh Temexw and others I know are valid; see next about validity.Skookum1 (talk) 04:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

and re the Skwxwu7mesh entry, if you read the actual cite (which is from User:OldManRivers, a Skwxwu7mesh wikipedian who's currently "away" in real life, the term given does NOT mean "Squamish Country" but rahter "all things Skxwu7mesh". The term Skwxwu7mesh Uxuimixw on the other hand, refers to the collection of once-separate governances/communities into the modern-day post-Indian Adt Squamish Nation, but would from what I understand be best translated as menaing "We Squamish" or less grammatically "Us Squamish" (as in "Us Squamish feel that...", not meant to be pidgin here, more ordinary-person bad English ;-). In other words, translating either Skwxwu7mesh-ullh or Skwxwu7mesh Uxwuimixw as "Squamish Country" is "not what the cites say"; the impliaction being there IS no name for "Squamish Country' (a phrase which I've reomved as inappropriate to start with....Skookum1 (talk) 05:34, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

re the St'at'imc I'm not knowledgeable enough to know the distinction between Ucwalmicw/Uxwalmixw and the phrase Ci wa lh kalth ti tmicwa (the land is ours) (on statimc. net; by the look of the Nuxalk entry (the email ref I left, though it could be deleted per discussions about email refs somewhere here, but added a main one from www.nuxalknation.org), the tmicw part, meaning "land" is parallel to Temexw (Halkomelem and Temicw (Shuswap).....and similar to the Nuxalk variant also....but I don't know enough about St'at'imc grammar to simply use "tmicw"...I'll check into this further before adding that entry.....Skookum1 (talk) 05:26, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Moving away a little from your discussion, wanted to have an idea from you guys whether you'll have any issue with me removing non-English sources that cannot possibly be validated (and especially those that come from organisations that neither qualify as newspapers nor as reliable).▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ _―Œ ^{♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣} 04:05, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The language of a source is far less important than its reliability (although of course it can be difficult to assess reliability of sources in obscure languages). If a source is not reliable, remove the entry.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd hope that it's obvious that indigenous peoples' own home pages are valid sources; in the case of Solh Temexw there are lots of secondary sources, though most citing a publication of one of the two Sto:lo tribal councils or a parallel cultural agency of that people (which may span tribal councils in some cases). And in some cases different organizations within the same people/ethnic group may use different names, or different spellings, e.g. Ucwalmicw vs. Uxwalmixw in the case of the St'at'imc (who have three tribal councils, using two different spelling systems....). Newspapers, also, are not necessarily that reliable on indigenous information......Skookum1 (talk) 04:44, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I've begun removing all the usages of Capital-C "Country", which is a juxtaposition of an English meaning into languages/cultures which did not have that concept. Most of these names simply mean "the earth", or "the world"; more on all that later; but I've also removed JSTOR links as pay-for/gated and therefore not valid as Wiki refs. The construction of e.g. "country of the Ioway" is acceptable, but "Ioway Country" is NOT. In other cases, claiming that a phrase which means "land of the people" is cognate to "[People] Country" is plainly synthesis and a bit of make-believe....Skookum1 (talk) 15:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The real problem with the JSTOR links is that the reference should be to the article itself. It can have the JSTOR link as well, and JSTOR is not pay only as many libraries and of course educational institutions have free JSTOR access. What is needed is twofold, one to edit the ref so it is clear about author, title, journal, dates, etc, and the other to check to make sure the reference backs the claim. I can do the latter, I might do both. Dougweller (talk) 16:14, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

WP:V#Access to sources says "The principle of verifiability implies nothing about ease of access to sources: some online sources may require payment, while some print sources may be available only in university libraries. " Thus it is specifically against policy to remove sources merely because they are behind for-pay links. DES ^(talk) 01:29, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Move to Wikipedia list

If the entries within this article are notable, I suggest this page be moved to a Wikipedia list rather than being a separate article. The list need not have any references/secondary sources, but only the names of notable areas (provided the list does not have many "red" links). This'll ensure that non-notable areas are automatically not included in the list, and that notable areas get their separate article, with verifiable sources. Do note this is only a suggestion and not a move that I will undertake till discussions have reached a consensus. ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ _―Œ ^{♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣}

Could you give an example? The lists I'm familiar with are separate articles.--Curtis Clark (talk) 04:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

You have noted, I hope, that I've already retitled it as a list, which is what it already was, though not by its (former) title....Skookum1 (talk) 04:45, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Sure. Something like List_of_Albanian_actors or even List_of_actors; although I'm perfectly alright with the page remaining in its current structure, given Wikipedia:Lists. Thanks ▒ Wirεłεşş ▒ Fidεłitұ ▒ Ćłâşş ▒ Θnε ▒ _―Œ ^{♣Łεâvε Ξ мεşşâgε♣} 04:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

So it would seem we're already there?--Curtis Clark (talk) 05:04, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

title-wise, yes, we're already there - but I'm not happy with the unformatted list as it is; there's no bulleting on each entry, only blank-line separations; as above the ideal solution would be to table-ize it (see List of Indian Reserves in British Columbia for an example. And the ongoing use of capital-C "Country" is definitely original research, and reduplicates what's in each entry; all that should be in that secondary position, however it's formatted, is which people and language the term is from . "Squamish Country", "Okanagan Country", "Ahtna Country" have decidedly different most common usages in English.Skookum1 (talk) 05:21, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it's bad formatting, and I agree that a table better fits the data structure than an unordered list. What would you envision as table heads? "Traditional Territory", "Indigenous People", "Source", "Notes"?--Curtis Clark (talk) 15:55, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

I happened across this article moments after reading a new piece stating that "Wikipedia has too much of a white male perspective," and the very idea of discounting a source because it's in an aboriginal language plays shockingly to that criticism. If someone can write in Halq'emelem, it's a pretty safe bet they have excellent knowledge about Coast Salish peoples! "Traditional territory" is simply what the lands are called. They are very different from where the people may live today. I came here because I wanted to find out the location of the traditional territory of the Arowok. I think this is an excellent idea for an article and that it would benefit from some cross-referencing and a map. ~~I don't have a Wikipedia name or account, but I donate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.84.174.136 (talk) 17:44, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

"Traditional territory" is certainly the norm and most widely spread usage and really the only way to put it in ordinary English. And all of them are notable, whether in ethnology of linguistics or history, and it is not for non-natives to say these people are not notable. It's also part of their native polity and identity and territorial identity and, in Canada and other places where there are disputes of various kinds, also part of the playing field as far as treaties and redress go; none of that is un-notable. And yes, a map would greatly help; the bit about this being white male turf doesn't apply in this WikiProject; I'm not sure but I think I'm one of the only white guys in here, most members of this Wikiproject are native officially or at least in part, I think (??). I'm whiter than white myself.....other than some Spanish armada blood that may have washed up and married into my bloodlines in Ireland and Norway.....the history of the native peoples and their lands is as important as the history of the German migrations of that of the Dorians or Turks or Gaels. Skookum1 (talk) 18:14, 17 April 2013 (UTC)

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External links modified (January 2018)

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 11 external links on List of traditional territories of the indigenous peoples of North America. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150717010637/http://www.tn.gov/tsla/history/manuscripts/findingaids/1787.pdf to http://www.tn.gov/tsla/history/manuscripts/findingaids/1787.pdf
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131512421500/http://www.choctawnation.com/history/choctaw-nation-history/ to http://www.choctawnation.com/history/choctaw-nation-history/
• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20151208045256/http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NORCAL/1999-11/0941477605 to http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/NORCAL/1999-11/0941477605
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• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20150205020009/http://www.ndstudies.org/resources/IndianStudies/threeaffiliated/culture_sahnish5.html to http://www.ndstudies.org/resources/IndianStudies/threeaffiliated/culture_sahnish5.html
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Template Messages

This article provides insufficient context for those unfamiliar with the subject. (January 2021) This article possibly contains original research. (January 2021)

Hi, I've served as a primary volunteer editor for the page. Could whoever put the two tags on the page--or any other editor who is following this page--give some helpful suggestions for how to improve the page? And to thus conscientiously provide conditions for the removal of the tags? For example, exactly which of the entries have you identified as original research? As far as I know, all of the entries are referenced. As for insufficient context, I could see that more explanation could be a good thing. Yet the intro paragraphs do succinctly explain what the list is about. Could you say more about what you experience as insufficient? P.S. I don't know if the tagger is referring back to the 2009 talk thread about Original Research; yet that was a very different predecessor of this list. That early 2009-era list wasn't fully referenced, which understandably aroused concerns about where the entries came from. Yet this later incarnation of the page was completely redone in format after that, and all entries were given references to outside sources.

Traversetravis (talk) 03:27, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

• It's been several months since I asked for specifics from my fellow editors. No response yet. So I'm removing the Templates. Traversetravis (talk) 02:01, 8 April 2021 (UTC)

Housekeeping

Per MOS:RACECAPS his should be at List of traditional territories of the Indigenous peoples of North America. Will move if there are not objections. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:54, 26 February 2023 (UTC)