Talk:List of prime ministers of Turkey

Republic

republican people's party did not have the word "republican" in it before the republic!

It wasend even called peopelse party

Under the heading "Prime Ministers during the Turkish War of Independence (1920–1923", the origin should not be written Republican People's Party. At those times, there were no such party. It should be deleted or replaced with a better phrase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inspectortr (talk • contribs) 17:05, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Ahmet Fikri Tüzer

Well, actually we have one more Prime, who served for only one single day in 1942. See this: http://www.haberdefteri.com/haberbak.php?id=6884 (it is in Turkish) Shall we include him also in the list? Okan 22:33, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

It is better...

From the article:

It's better to note that Atatürk, Çakmak, Orbay and Okyar are the Speakers of the Grand National Assembly of Turkey, -not Prime Ministers - during the years of War of Independence.

Why??翔太 ^{「Shouta:talk」} 08:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Right, this does not belong in the article. Furthermore, it does not agree with the link provided. If something is incorrect here, it should be discussed. Karma Heretic (talk) 16:29, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

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The numbering

The current numbering makes little sense. It is the accepted practice to count consecutive terms as one, but non-consecutive terms separately. And rightly so, as it is misleading to say İnönü is only the first prime minister for his 1923-1924 term, whereas he also served as the 12th prime minister in 1961-1965, which is completely different, coming almost forty years after. See List of Presidents of the United States for example, where Grover Cleveland is both 22nd and 24th presidents. Or look at List of Prime Ministers of Greece for a country that has a similar history of prime minister coming and going, each being counted separately. Officially the prime ministers are not numbered in Turkey, but only the governments; so it is more reasonable to follow this typical practice. Currently, after the 2nd prime minister comes the (1)st prime minister, causing an awkward appearance. I am correcting the numbering scheme in line with the one typically used in the world.--Cfsenel (talk) 20:57, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

For some reason, the English wikipedia does not count a Prime Minister more than once even if he/she has held the office on multiple occasions. As far I'm aware, this issue has been discussed on the List of Prime Ministers of Italy page (and also the Silvio Berlusconi page) where I believe the consensus was to count each Prime Minister once. In my personal opinion I think that both systems of numbering make sense, but we need to comply with the numbering systems for the leaders of other countries on Wikipedia for consistency. Also, a few Turkish newspapers consider Davutoglu to be the 26th Prime Minister (see references). This might be something to bear in mind. I understand that it takes a lot of time and effort to change the numbering of 27 different pages, so I apologise for reverting those edits without consulting you beforehand. Also, thanks very much for appreciating the other edits I have made. I obviously value your own contributions equally and hope we can both develop the Turkish political pages of Wikipedia in the lead-up to the 2015 general election. T.C. Ataturkiye (talk) 22:54, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi. I was not aware of the Berlusconi discussion (actually, I still could not find it on Talk:Silvio Berlusconi/Archive 3, can you point me to it?). Wikipedia seems divided on the issue. I only checked a few countries that were of interest to me at the time (France, US, Greece), and mistakenly thought that the usage on those pages was the consensus. Here is the usage on some pages that I now cared to look:

Prime Ministers serving non-consecutive terms are counted more than once:

• List of Prime Ministers of France (e.g. Poincaré 76, 89, 95)
• List of Prime Ministers of Greece (e.g. Venizelos 93, 95, 102, 112, 121, 123, 125)
• List of Prime Ministers of Portugal (e.g. Bandeira 7, 9)
• List of Prime Ministers of Iran (e.g. Tonekaboni 3, 7, 9, 13)
• List of Prime Ministers of Serbia (e.g. Pašić 46, 62, 65, 68, 71)
• List of Presidents of the United States (e.g. Cleveland 22, 24)

Prime Ministers serving non-consecutive terms aren't counted more than once:

• List of Prime Ministers of Bulgaria
• List of Prime Ministers of Israel
• List of Chancellors of Austria
• List of Prime Ministers of Japan
• List of Prime Ministers of Canada
• List of Prime Ministers of Australia
• List of Prime Ministers of New Zealand
• List of Prime Ministers of India

Both counting schemes are used:

• List of Prime Ministers of South Korea

The lists for Italy, Spain, Netherlands, United Kingdom do not use numbers for the prime ministers. It seems that English speaking countries tend not to count non-consecutive terms more than once. Of course, if there was any accepted usage in the country, that would overrule the consensus on Wikipedia for other countries. However, officially the prime ministers are not counted in Turkey (the governments are, the 62nd of which is headed by Davutoğlu). Also in everyday life, the numbers for governments are rarely used. I am almost certain that anyone who referred to Davutoğlu as the 26th prime minister got that information from Wikipedia, as Turkish Wikipedia referred to him at the time (it now says 37th). For pre-wikipedia prime ministers, [1][2][3][4][5][6] do not return any meaningful results, nor does the other numbering scheme. I am also quite certain that a few sources will call the next prime minister 38th, not 27th, provided Turkish Wikipedia remains the way it is now. The point is that prime ministers are not normally numbered in Turkey, and when they are, there is no accepted way to do it. (Here is a website that surprisingly did not copy and paste from Wikipedia, and refers to Davutoğlu as 37th prime minister: [7])

I realize that a case can be made for both numbering schemes. I tend to think that the usage in France, Germany and Greece makes more sense. Before my reversion, Süleyman Demirel article said he "served as the 12th Prime Minister of Turkey five times between the years 1965 and 1993." Or consider the sentence "İnönü served as the 1st Prime Minister of Turkey three times, from 1923 to 1924, 1925 to 1937, and 1961 to 1965." It really does not make sense to me, as one can do something the first only once; one cannot serve as the first prime minister of Turkey more than once. It seems almost semantically wrong. But then again, maybe it does make sense to native English speakers, given that they usually use that numbering. I am sure one could present arguments for the other numbering method. Perhaps it is best not to use numbers, at least in the articles for each prime minister, which would also avoid original research (e.g. Nihat Erim probably never considered himself either 13th or 15th prime minister, no newspapers referred to him as such, but only as the head of 33rd and 34th governments, and there is no reputable contemporary source that numbers him 13th or 15th, it is us who do the counting, which could be claimed to be original research).--Cfsenel (talk) 16:28, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I did not realise that Wikipedia was divided on this issue and mistakenly assumed that the dispute in the case of Italy was the case for all countries. I think it's really about what numbering system is best for Turkey, which is unique since there have been Prime Ministers serving for up to five times non-consecutively. In the cases of Ecevit and Demirel for example, I would actually argue that neither numbering system is very beneficial. If we use the original numbering system, you correctly point out that the phrase '...served as the 16th Prime Minister of Turkey five times...' doesn't make much sense. On the other hand, assigning up to five different numbers in the infoboxes is also rather confusing. I would therefore propose not actually using any numbers on the infoboxes of the Prime Ministers' articles and only use numbers in the List of Prime Ministers of Turkey article. This is also because Atatürk, Çakmak, Orbay and Okyar are also listed as Prime Ministers but without numbers because they were heads of the Ankara Government. This may also be confusing since there is a break in the sequence for all prime ministers before İnönü. T.C. Ataturkiye (talk) 16:23, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

I agree with you, five numbers in the infoboxes can be confusing; and together with the fact that they are unofficial and uncertain, it is best to leave them out of the Prime Ministers' articles.--Cfsenel (talk) 23:11, 16 January 2015 (UTC)

In this case, I'll copy and paste this discussion into the talk section of the List of Prime Ministers of Turkey article so that we can refer to it in the edit summary while removing the numbers from the infoboxes. This will mean that people won't think that we are deleting information in an unexplained manner and also will allow editors who disagree to look over what we've said and contribute their own views if they aren't convinced. I would also quickly add in further support of not having numbers that in the UK's case, Prime Ministers aren't numbered because their jurisdiction has never been consistent. For example, Pitt the Younger was the Prime Minister of Great Britain, but the prime ministers that succeeded him were Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom. In Turkey we have a similar case - we have had Prime Ministers of the Turkish Republic and Prime Ministers of the Ankara government, so numbering is again an issue of perspective rather than a set fact.

So in summary, the reasons for removing the numbers from the Prime Ministers' articles are:

• It doesn't make sense that a Prime Minister is referred to as the 'Xth Prime Minister of Turkey' if they have served more than twice.
• Having too many (up to five) numbers within the infobox of the Prime Minister makes overcomplicates the information
• Prime Ministers have served as heads of different things, some for the Ankara government and some for the government of the Turkish Republic, making a numbering system confusing
• Prime Ministers are generally not referred to or thought of as the 'Xth Prime Minister' in Turkey

T.C. Ataturkiye (talk) 00:48, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

References

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