Talk:Larry (cat)

External link added/removed

Was the Larry link unsuitable? Seemed quite useful for cat fans like me, but sorry if it wasn't the right sort of material --FelisTeeCee (talk) 08:12, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Felis - My understanding is that as it's a personal website it therefore shouldn't be used, as per point 11 of external links normally to be avoided. Arthur Holland (talk) 10:14, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Too 'tongue-in-cheek'?

I appreciate the humour, but the article is written as a sort of protracted joke. I also appreciate that there is a limit to how serious an article about a rat-chasing cat can be made, but is there any way this could be made less sarcastic? TomB123 (talk) 09:09, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

The article merely reflects newspaper comments. So long as it has proper citations and remains fairly short, I don't think there is a problem. I don't expect it will reach good article status but it may be read by those who wouldn't read political articles. JRPG (talk) 09:09, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

Must admit when I was reading it I was a little put off by the tone, but when to official No 10 website lists him "inspecting security defences and testing antique furniture" there's not much you can do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.41.67.251 (talk) 18:30, 26 June 2012 (UTC)

Great tongue in cheek article. We need some humour in our difficult times. Thank you for brightening my day. Complainers who cannot get irony, please move off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.65.17.104 (talk) 14:15, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Re Tone banner. I've removed it because the article does reflect the jocular style of reliable sources and hence is in accordance with WP:Guide_to_writing_better_articles#Information_style_and_tone. I note this article under the BBC politics section which I hope someone will add. Remove the source humour and the purpose of the article disappears.JRPG (talk) 08:42, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

"On March 6,2012 Larry made his own live TV cameo appearance during the BBC's flagship Ten O'Clock News program, when he strolled nonchalantly up to the doorstep of Number Ten Downing Street just as BBC Political Correspondent James Lansdale was delivering a piece to camera. Lansdale appeared to be unaware the cat was stealing the scene from him as he ploughed on with his report. Larry meanwhile - with all the PR skill of a practised politician - posed on the doorstep until a Number Ten factotum opened the door to admit him. Larry, a master of timing, characteristically pauses for effect in order to give his entrance the maximum impact before sweeping majestically through the hallowed portal into the hall. His impromptu appearance was so popular BBC viewers demanded it be repeated on the BBC News Channel's "Newswatch" program. This is available on BBC iPlayer on http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01d0tpl/Newswatch_09_03_2012/ (from 10:20). On April 24, 2012 Larry returned to the news for his antics while waiting to be admitted to 10 Downing Street,[22] and on May 24,2012 Larry was caught partaking in the recent craze of chillaxing in the 27 °C heat." How is that appropriate tone for an encyclopaedia?--EchetusXe 08:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it should be removed, but not [just] because of tone, but because it's not notable/encyclopedic/verifiable in secondary sources. --Dweller (talk) 09:46, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for a rapid and clear response. The TV cameo appearance is editorialising, lacks notability and should be removed. The IPlayer link has long since been overwritten. Chillaxing needs to be in quotes assuming it is in the source. JRPG (talk) 09:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Also twitter is not a reliable source for more recent posts. JRPG (talk) 09:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Seems like we're agreed. I'll edit it now. --Dweller (talk) 10:11, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

So taking the the following part for example:

"On 14 November 2011, Larry's position came under pressure, as it emerged that he was spending more time sleeping, and spending time in the company of a female cat, Maisie,[14] than actually hunting for mice. The cat's position was said to be "unassailable", even though it emerged that the Prime Minister had resorted to throwing a piece of cutlery at a mouse during a Cabinet dinner, in an ineffectual attempt to kill it.[14] The Prime Minister's spokesman rejected calls for Larry's resignation, stating that "Larry brings a lot of pleasure to a lot of people".[15]"

The bbc article [14] doesn't say anything about Larry's position coming under pressure or that his position was said to be "unassailable". I think there is a problem with the tone here. Fine to say that the media reported him as spending more time sleeping than hunting for mice but writing that his position came under pressure, when it's not written in the source, is a bit much...Polyamorph (talk) 21:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

I read the article for the very first time today. I actually enjoyed some aspects of the jocular style, however, I was extremely disappointed and quite angry to see some very sloppy editing in the article. The example which stands out to me is the statement - "However, Larry's spokeswoman insisted that the two tabbies were able to "co-exist". The source makes it very clear that the spokeswoman was the PM's, not Larry's! This really is unforgivably inaccurate editing and we must all try harder. (Joke!) DrChrissy ^(talk) 23:00, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

I have risked stroking Larry's fur the wrong way and made the correction. Philip Cross (talk) 07:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Purrrrrrr Thanks. DrChrissy ^(talk) 17:08, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Removal from David Cameron article.

In accordance with the general spirit of this article, could I suggest that the template for the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom includes both the monarch and the cat to whom the PM owes allegiance? JRPG (talk) 22:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Seriously? I love this article, but I can't think of a reason why that would be a good idea. --Dweller (talk) 22:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

uhm ..oh dear ..not too seriously, and apologies for any time wasted -it has been removed from the Cameron article though. Though I follow all the rules , this is is the only light hearted article I indulge in and perhaps cat:humour is in order.

En passant, congrats to Dingowasher for all his efforts to get this to B-Class. JRPG (talk) 23:42, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

100,000 cats employed by the British Gov't?

Could a better source be provided for the extraordinary claim, "He is one of 100,000 cats employed by the Government to keep down mice?[1] Is this figure for all time, or annually? Is there a line item in a budget somewhere? Abductive (reasoning) 05:38, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Apologies for not having a better source, particularly for a most valued member of the political community :) but I came upon the Daily Mail item by chance -and could hardly believe what I read. I completely assume that the 100k figure is the current feline payroll. JRPG (talk) 21:58, 24 March 2013 (UTC)

I can't believe this is true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.252.235.244 (talk) 16:08, 14 April 2013 (UTC)

I'm equally astonished but ... It appears in a suggested source and they, not us are supposed to check their facts! No humans are likely to suffer as a result of an error and it is important to explain that the cat is there for a very specific purpose. I'll reinsert but assign responsibility for any error to the Telegraph which will improve the article. JRPG (talk) 16:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I should have added that there is further advice on policy at Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth JRPG (talk) 17:35, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Looks like someone made a FOI request about this last year, but the answer they got was just "I am writing to advise you that this information is not held by the Cabinet Office." --McGeddon (talk) 14:46, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Interesting and thanks for sharing! I added the original snippet + reference. However as Sir Humphrey Appleby would have said, that doesn't mean the information isn't held elsewhere! Editors on this page, whilst maintaining accuracy, try to reflect the fairly light hearted tone of the reporting newspapers. If you can find a reference number for the FOI response data, please add it. personally, I'd have no problem with a scanned copy -minus the recipient's personal details. Very brief mouse casualties would be of interest. Regards JRPG (talk) 20:53, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Google Street View link

I can't see Larry in the link purporting to show him on Google Street View, and I notice that 10 Downing Street appears to have been blurred in its entirety. Did Larry get an injunction? 91.85.35.46 (talk) 14:21, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Good catch. We shouldn't be using Street View itself as a source anyway, so I've replaced it with a 2012 news story and put a year on it. --McGeddon (talk) 14:27, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

I would expect all potential terrorist targets to be blurred. JRPG (talk) 21:00, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

seriously?

There is a serious article on the CAT at Downing Street? And Wikipedia still thinks it is a serious source of information? Ok... 66.67.32.161 (talk) 03:17, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely 66.67.32.161! This is one of almost 5 million Wikipedia articles and I believe it accurately reflect what newspapers have said about the mouser. For parents with younger children, it is also an excellent introduction to politics and government, reflecting the encyclopaedia's important role in education. Regards JRPG (talk) 11:23, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

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Downing Street jokes vs Twitter jokes

The new paragraph from User:Dingowasher about how "following David Cameron's resignation, Larry was reported to be putting together a bid to be the next leader of the Conservative Party" is sourced to an article about how Twitter users were making jokes about this, rather than (as is the case for the bulk of the article) a tongue-in-cheek Downing Street press release. This sentence becomes quite dull if accurately reframed as "Twitter users joked".

For basic Wikipedia quote-attribution and the sake of a good joke article (Downing Street putting out a serious statement about a cat is funny, a few Twitter users saying "Larry for PM lol" is not), should we stick to actual quotes from the government? --McGeddon (talk) 08:41, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Removal of monarch/PM from infobox

I feel that the monarch and PM shouldn't be removed from the infobox, this may be an article about a cat but it's still an official government position, as confirmed by the 10 Downing Street website. Younotmenotyou (talk) 10:26, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

References

It's a cat. It doesn't have a monarch, religion, honorific, or any of the other cruft that keeps getting added. (The 10 Downing Street website probably also has more leeway to publish whimsy on its website than an encyclopedia does.) Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 10:58, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Recentism, "murder" and trivial additions

Hi McGeddon. I don't think anyone coming to this page expects a serious political or feline article. They are however expecting something that accurately reflects the sources and their language. Re recentism, some earlier links appear to have been removed but I don't as yet know why. The Telegraph article I added today explicitly refers to 'murdering mice' and the addition of a warning bell is much more significant than it might appear -it's now clear that the cat is not there to catch mice! FWIW, I believe both the newspaper reporters and this article are providing a useful service to younger readers who may develop an interest in politics through reading about Larry. Regards JRPG (talk) 19:02, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

The recentism tag doesn't mean that the article has to be more serious, just that it shouldn't document each and every breaking news story in sequence. The current article reads more like a day-by-day diary ("September 2016, got a new collar") which is going to be a slog of a read in WP:10YEARS' time. The Wikipedia biography of Humphrey is broken up into sections, and taking the same approach for Larry ("Relationship with Cameron", "Rivalry with Palmerston", and only writing as much detail as is necessary in each section) would make the article much more accessible to any reader.

Wikipedia can use jokily written articles as sources, but should do so in a formal tone. If a newspaper describes the murder of a mouse or a scorcher of a summer, we should put that in scare quotes or rephrase it. --McGeddon (talk) 09:32, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

I really like this article. It is fun to edit (a rare thing on Wikipedia these days) because it stretches the mind in how to phrase information in a way which is both accurate and informational, but also tongue in cheek. I think it has the correct balance at the moment. Regarding recentism, there are many articles considerably more guilty of this - try watching an article on Celebrity Big Brother when the series is showing on television. DrChrissy ^(talk) 16:49, 15 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I imagine it's hard to avoid recentism on an article about a weekly TV show. Do you think "first year, second year, third year" listing all news stories until the cat is retired is preferable to how the Humphrey (cat) article is structured? --McGeddon (talk) 09:56, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Actually, Celebrity Big Brother is a daily programme and edits to WP were being made seconds after transmission. In answer to your question, I prefer the format of the Humphrey article and I can understand your dislike of the yearly format in this one. DrChrissy ^(talk) 19:54, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

I think that there are some good points here about the structure of the article. I actually introduced the year-by-year format, when five years ago the article was just one long section that read like an unstoppable stream of consciousness. However, as McGeddon points out this has encouraged day-by-day reporting that has become a repetitive read. Looking through the article there are themes that last a year or so, and then fade away. e.g. years 1/2: moving in and first kill, years 3/4: rivalry with Freya, year 4: entertaining guests, year 5: Larry's interactions with other people, year 6: fights with Palmerston. These themes could form the basis of a future structure of the article. Perhaps to move towards this we should select a theme from the early years where the sources are stable, and work through the couple of associated paragraphs and rewrite them to simply to prevent each sentence start with "On 7th June...", but retain the main text of each sentence. Then we will be well-positioned to split that text off into a new section, and remove the year-by-year formatting for a cuple of years. Once one section is done it will serve as a template of how to deal with the other sections?77LmTA6knQ6 (talk) 22:37, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I've taken a stab at splitting this into sections according to subject ("Arrival at Downing Street" / "Work as Chief Mouser" / "Relationships with politicians" / "Relationships with other animals" / "Territory" / "Other work"). I've taken out about 25k of day-by-day "and then he caught another mouse and then he met another school visit and then he sat on a car" details and lost some of the jokey segues which made imaginary narrative connections between consecutive events, but hopefully the basic facts are all still there. --McGeddon (talk) 14:08, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

After two years, I still miss the year-by-year account of Larry's tenure which was removed.--WBcoleman (talk) 23:36, 21 October 2018 (UTC)

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Retirement?

Hi all, as Larry is now in his 60s, in human years (see here, remembering that he was a 'stray' for the first few years), is there anything about him possibly retiring soon (maybe UK wikieditors can inquire if downing st staff have any plans)? Coolabahapple (talk) 06:06, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Distinct lack of humour

I would like to highlight the distinct lack of humour from those 'correcting' the edits on this page. Come on team, this is a fun page you need to lighten up. That is all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.225.73.15 (talk) 13:12, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Career needs expansion

Reading the article makes me think that this is probably a good for nothing cat, with a few mousings here and there when the place is infested with mouse. The article lacks detailed statistics such as number of mouses caught in a year etc. I am not sure if this info is available, but if it is there out, then must be added. --DBigXrayᗙ 12:09, 11 December 2019 (UTC)

That information would be available in the ledger in which Larry records his daily mouses catch. However, nobody seems to know the whereabouts of such a document.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:10, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Larry the cat as PM

I know this might not get far but considering that Boris Johnson has resigned, can we have Larry the cat put down as Acting Prime Minister? McLarenSenna418 (talk) 19:14, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Seconded. 2603:7000:6340:38F:C077:F851:FE83:6ECE (talk) 22:49, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Larry for PM Darrenlsh2005 (talk) 11:23, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

On real note, news lately that Larry is campaigning late with huge billboards, many news sites have reported yesterday Satv9 (talk) 18:50, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

source? This sounds quite interesting!  Xan ✨ talk 07:40, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

@XanSurnamehere - Here's one. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 08:03, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Infobox

@Neveselbert (mobile) I disagree with your infobox style being used. For now, please do not revert it again. Discuss it here. 2A00:23C7:DA0B:3901:689F:EE0C:2552:6D4F (talk) 01:10, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I have just created an account. @Neveselbert (mobile) Again, I disagree with your infobox being used and instructed you to discuss it here and cease reverting it, which you ignored. Please do not make me take further action. 2A00:23C7:DA0B:3901:689F:EE0C:2552:6D4F (talk) 01:45, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Asperthrow (talk) 01:48, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

You were removing content without explanation, which I've since restored. {{Infobox officeholder}} is still a part of the infobox, it's just a child of {{Infobox animal}}. I've tried doing it the other way round but it wouldn't work. All notable animals should include {{Infobox animal}} if an infobox is desired, using only {{Infobox officeholder}} would not be appropriate for a non-human. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 01:51, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

It was not a content removal nor unexplained. My previous edit under the IP address provided explanation.

Please provide a link to this infobox requirement. Asperthrow (talk) 01:57, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

{{Infobox animal}} is the infobox used for specific animals with given names, including individual pets., as per the documentation. It was indeed a content removal because you removed the template without adequately explaining why. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 02:02, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Which is also not a binding Wikipedia policy.

I reverted your edit made on the 27th, which changed the long-kept officeholder infobox. The onus to argue why the animal infobox should be used, I would say, is on you. Asperthrow (talk) 02:08, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

It's the standard infobox used for animals. To portray Larry as just another officeholder is disingenuous because, obviously, he is not a person (see wikt:officeholder for the full definition). He is an animal, a cat; therefore, the most appropriate infobox to use is {{Infobox animal}}. That is not to say we can't use {{Infobox officeholder}} at all, we can, we just have to embed it as a module within {{Infobox animal}}, or vice versa if you would prefer we find a way of doing that. I'm calling a spade a spade, the onus is on you to argue otherwise. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 18:53, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

No. The infobox was perfectly fine in the time before your edit, that being well over two years.

No reader is going to conclude that this article is attempting to portray Larry as anything other than a cat who holds a government-granted title.

“The standard infobox used for animals” is not mandated by Wikipedia policy. Editor consensus is therefore the modus operandi and the consensus for two years up until your edit - and indeed thus far over a week after it - is that the officeholder infobox is completely appropriate and adequate.

You are welcome to seek a consensus on this from other editors. For now, do not revert it again. Asperthrow (talk) 20:12, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Why are you so opposed to including {{Infobox animal}}? See WP:CONTENTAGE, "that being well over two years." is not a valid argument. ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 20:57, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

I think it’s perfectly adequate as it is. It’s not an improvement to the article. Seek consensus from other editors if you care enough. Asperthrow (talk) 05:34, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not a reason. How is it not an improvement? ‑‑Neveselbert (talk · contribs · email) 22:48, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not a policy either.

It offers no improvement to the article. Larry is a civil servant with an official title. The officeholder infobox looks far better on the page. Larry is only known for being the chief mouser, meaning making his title smaller in the infobox is actually damaging to the article rather than helpful. Not to mention arbitrary.

I suspect you agree and are just now being pedantic; your only listed reason for changing it is that it is “the standard infobox used for animals”, which is not dictated by policy. You offer no insight into how it would improve the article. You are the one who came along and changed a long-standing part of the article. The onus is on you to explain why your significant change should be kept. Asperthrow (talk) 00:37, 5 November 2022 (UTC)

"Honorary Title?"

The succession box at the bottom of the article categorises his position as Chief Mouser as an honorary one. I know this article is very tongue-in-cheek, but I think it would be more appropriate not to describe it as such, given that the role has responsibilities (namely catching mice), and it is not just an honorary title given to the Prime Minister's cat. Saltywalrusprkl (talk) 12:00, 24 September 2023 (UTC)