Talk:Koblenz Stadtmitte station

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:53, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

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Koblenz City Centre Station → Koblenz Stadtmitte station – This is an absoutely nonexistent name, as far as I can tell not used anywhere outside of Wikipedia, so the obvious solution is to revert to using the name which is on the station signs, i.e., the one people will recognise. If we're going to translate every bit of a station name that looks foreign we'd end up with a lot of terrible article titles like Berlin South Cross station or Hamburg Embankment Gate station and this not only goes against WP:OR but is also completely useless to most people who will actually visit these articles (and more pressingly the categories and lists they are in) and know the station names by nothing except what is written on their signs. Also, the word "station" should not be capitalised. - filelakeshoe 14:19, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Note this RM is reverting an undiscussed move In ictu oculi (talk) 02:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Survey

• Support SLawsonIII (talk) 16:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose. The proposed form is quite original, and gets no hits on GNews, GBooks, Highbeam, Deutsche Bahn, Deutsche Welle, or Berliner Morgenpost. The station opened last year, so I don't see how it can have a "traditional" name. "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader," per WP:UE. The German name is Haltepunkt Koblenz Stadtmitte. Why translate haltepunkt, but not stadtmitte? A title should be in the form that allows an English speaking reader understand it most easily. This proposal is all about scoring points for the local language. Wiki has numerous translated station names in forms like "Foo Central Station" or "Foo railway station". The logic for translating this name is the same. NCGN warns against following signage, since this is of course in the local language rather than in English. Kauffner (talk) 01:39, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

"This proposal is all about scoring points for the local language." - I won't be the only one entirely fed up of seeing what amount to WP:PA personal attacks from this User in his arguments for "English names". WP:AGF would be that Filelakeshoe's proposal is about what he says it is about, namely the fact that this undiscussed and redirect-edit-locked move is to "an absoutely nonexistent name" unquote. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Does everyone have one of these? Something that goes from forum to forum making accusations? This has been going on every day for months now. Kauffner (talk) 07:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Kauffner, I don't like the word "accusation". It sounds as though someone is making an wikt:accusation, and yet the only wikt:accusation here is the wikt:accusation you have made that Filelakeshoe's "proposal is all about scoring points for the local language.". That this is an undiscussed and edit-locked move is not an wikt:accusation, it as wikt:fact, that anyone can check by looking at the edit history. In ictu oculi (talk) 08:28, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Scoring points? Not here, no. Actually, when I go to Deutsche Bahn and switch to the English version of the site, and type in "Koblenz Stadtmitte", I get precisely this station, when I type in "Koblenz City Centre" I get precisely nothing. And, please, spare us the talk about any "precedent" of articles named "Foo Central Station", this precedent of moving every Hauptbahnhof under the sun to "Central Station" with that weird capitalisation was established by you, without any prior consensus for a site-wide change, and I notice you weren't successful in Zürich. The reason we don't translate every word that looks foreign on railway station signs is because the name of a railway station is a proper noun. The same reason we don't translate Nové Zámky to New Castles, Slovakia. And I would argue it is less helpful for anyone to use a translation of a railway station name, unless the station really is widely known by it, as anyone who has been to it or searched for it on bahn.de or whatever knows it only by the name on the signs, and will have to check against the German name anyway to see which station translation corresponds to. - filelakeshoe 08:57, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't get any GBook or Highbeam English-language results for "Koblenz Stadtmitte" either. Signs in Germany are in German, so English Wiki should use German too? Please reconsider this line of reasoning. It is dealt with in NCGN, which gives "München and Nürnberg" as an example. Kauffner (talk) 09:42, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but there are many other sources calling München and Nürnberg Munich and Nuremberg. There are no sources calling this station "Koblenz City Centre". - filelakeshoe 10:04, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

WP:UE recommends translation when there is no established English-language form. If you read my posts, I wouldn't have to write everything twice. Kauffner (talk) 14:10, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

I am reading your posts, I just disagree with your interpretation of UE to mean "anything that looks foreign is not allowed". Are you then recommending we should move Nové Zámky to New Castles (or maybe New Locks) and Hamburg Dammtor to Hamburg Embankment Gate? I also disagree that translating a name of a railway station helps anyone understand anything - WP:UE recommends translating if it can be done "without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding", using a name that doesn't exist instead of one that does doesn't help anyone. Also, this interpretation of WP:UE completely sends WP:NOR to hell. - filelakeshoe 14:58, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

NOR deals with "facts, allegations, and ideas," not phrasing. Or do you think descriptive titles violate NOR? Kauffner (talk) 15:09, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support per this precedent. Translating the name ourselves is tantamount to OR if reliable sources such as guidebooks do not. Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 16:43, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
  • That is not the view of WP:UE. Besides, the proposed form is equally original. Kauffner (talk) 02:49, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
    • You're right, WP:UE says exactly nothing on the issue of what to do in this situation. Well, nothing other than "If there are too few reliable English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians, Portuguese for Brazilian towns, and so on)...in deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." Seeing as how 1) those two sentences contradict each other, and 2) the second example all but explicitly states "do not translate place names", I think WP:UE pretty clearly supports the move. Sorry, but I think there's nothing else I can say but you're pretty blatantly misapplying that guideline here. Zaldax (talk) 00:53, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support per "German for German Railway Stations" (no, WP:AT and WP:EN don't actually say that, but common sense implies extension). In ictu oculi (talk) 02:32, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Support Names of geographic landmarks need no translation in the absence of an English WP:COMMONNAME. The above interpretation of WP:UE is simply wrong and lead to an WP:OR title. Agathoclea (talk) 07:20, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

• Support. WP:UE says "The choice between anglicized and local spellings should follow English-language usage" and "follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject (German for German politicians,". It does not say "invent new names if those foreign johnnies use funny foreign lingo, what what". Haltepunkt is simply a word for station or halt, it is not part of the name as such. The ludicrous Central station article clearly demonstrates what a farce inventing new names for every railway station in the non-English speaking world would be. We don't invent new names for things like the Reichstag, or airports, or stations in the English-speaking world which have names that are something other than the place name. Wheeltapper (talk) 19:36, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

• edited to exclude the hyphen, that was a mistake - filelakeshoe 14:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

• I supported, but I think it was originally designed to be parallel design to the page Koblenz Central Station. But yes, the traditional usages in English appear to be Koblenz Central Station and Koblenz Stadtmitte Station. Wikipedia titles should reflect that. SLawsonIII (talk) 16:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'm beginning to think that we may want to revisit those RMs, actually, especially given the more recent RM I cited above. Let's handle this one first, though, before deciding if we want to re-open those. Cheers, Zaldax (talk) 20:08, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Filelakeshoe, you seem to be familiar with the history here. I pick up on the moves mentioned. What other significant RMs belong in this history?

• 5 July 2011 Nürnberg Hauptbahnhof → Nuremberg Central Station – 5 July 2011 Anderson RM, 4 support 5 oppose, Vegaswikian closed with move
• 20 Dec 2011 Berlin Hauptbahnhof → Berlin Central Station Kauffner RM, 3 support, moved Vegaswikian
• 22 Dec 2011 Kauffner moved Koblenz Hauptbahnhof to Koblenz Central Station over redirect "Move to translated English name, per WP:UE, discussion at Talk:Berlin Central Station)"
• 17 Feb 2012 Zürich Hauptbahnhof → Zurich Central - 17 February 2012 User:Kauffner RM, result not moved
• 19 Feb 2012‎ Kauffner moved Koblenz-Stadtmitte station to Koblenz City Centre Station 23:34, (moved Talk:Koblenz-Stadtmitte station to Talk:Koblenz City Centre Station: Translated title to correspond with other German stations, esp. Koblenz Central Station (just confirmed by RM)) " undiscussed move and edit-lock

In ictu oculi (talk) 11:35, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Since Koblenz Central was itself an undiscussed move and Zürich RM had just failed what RM does "just confirmed by RM" refer to? In ictu oculi (talk) 11:40, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

It looks as if every remaining Hauptbahnhof was moved to "Central Station" on 22 Dec 11, after the Talk:Berlin Central Station RM. The article central station is a list of random trivia being used to push the questionable agenda that every main station in every city is called "Central Station" in English (see mine and Wheeltapper's comments on talk). - filelakeshoe 11:43, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

So there was was no "just confirmed by RM" on 19 Feb? I suppose other editors were busy getting ready for Christmas :). All these Category:Hauptbahnhof in Germany say "per WP:UE" (which of course doesn't support this) and "discussion at Talk:Berlin Central Station)" which doesn't discuss renaming the entire category. I haven't really paid much attention to these stations moves, although Prague Hlavni featured on the IP cluster's previous-RM concealing activity. It's pretty frail that "An attack at Berlin's main train station" is a source for Berlin Capital-C Central Capital-S station. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:17, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

So I went over everything and thought about all the arguments. It seems two things start the conversation first: 1. there is no clear English usage for this place and 2. to translate or not to translate, that is the question. Here's how I reaffirmed my Support for the change. 1. WP:NCGN tell us that when there is no clear English name, "the modern official name, in articles dealing with the present should be used". ok... 2. WP:UE tells us to use the national conventions AND to follow English language usage. OK. 3. English usage of German train stations usually translates them as (CITY NAME) (Specific Station or CENTER if it is the center station) (Station). Hence if there were a Bonderburg (invented name) station in Hamburg, the standard usage is Hamburg Bonderburg Station. I base this on Rail Europe and Lonely planet. Hence. 4. Koblenz Stadtmitte Station is the English norm for train stations in Germany when there isn't an established alternative English usage. This meets both Wikipedia naming conventions and common names. However, based on the same sources, it appears that Koblenz Central Station should stay as is, and not be translated. SLawsonIII (talk) 02:08, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

"Koblenz Central Station" is a translation. It is either a translation of "Koblenz Stadtmitte [station]", or a mistranslation of "Koblenz Hauptbahnhof" (which translates as "Koblenz Main Station" - Hbfs are not always central). Is there a source for using "CENTER if it is the center station"? Take Berlin, where Stadtmitte (Berlin U-Bahn) has not been renamed "Center (Berlin U-Bahn)" despite being in the centre. Heidelberg Altstadt station (translates as "old town") doesn't appear to have a Wikipedia article yet, but renaming it to "Heidelberg Center" would risk confusion with the distinctly un-central station which Wikipedia thinks is called Heidelberg Central and the rest of the world thinks is called Heidelberg Hauptbahnhof. Similar issues will arise in countless other places. We don't invent new names for airports, or talk about a Berlin street called "Under the lime trees". Wheeltapper (talk) 08:21, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Translation is recommended if there is no established English-language use, per WP:UE. Numerous sources translate "hauptbahnhof" as "central station", as you can see at Talk:Berlin_Central_Station#Usage_examples. Deutsche Bahn refers to "Cologne Central Station", "Munich Central Station", "Hamburg Central Station", and so forth.[1] "Central station" is railway-speak for a city's principle station. The description "central" never referred to the city center. It originally meant central compared to a city's other stations. Kauffner (talk) 10:47, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

That is simply not true.

• Have you tried actually reading the words in WP:UE? Simply claiming it says something will not make it true. Some of us have actually read it!
• "Deutsche Bahn refers to "Cologne Central Station"". Okay, this should be easy to verify. Show us a DB station name board, or ever a DB timetable or departure board which include those terms (that is an official source, not a passing reference like "Foostadt Hauptbahnhof, the central station in Foostadt" in a foreign newspaper. While there are indeed a few occurrences of "central" if one searches for them, DB usually uses the real name. Inventing new name doesn't really help anyone.
• DB has a page called Main stations in Germany ... Berlin Hauptbahnhof. Note this is not "central" stations in Germany! Where it does translate it uses Main, only rarely Central.
• Let's try the DB journey planner. If I try Berlin Central, it thinks I mean "Berlin, Central Hotel (Hotel)". If I try "Cologne Central", it thinks I mean "Köln, Euro Garden Hotel Cologne Zentral (Hotel)" - which is apparently an 8 min walk away from something called "Köln Hbf"! If I try "Koblenz City Centre Station", its best guess is somewhere in the Netherlands!
• ""Central station" is railway-speak for a city's principle station". This is simply false (ever been to Exeter, Prague or post-LGV Avignon?). The Central station article clearly shows how ludicrous such an assertion is. We may as well argue that "Heathrow is aviation speak for main airport", and thus insist on having articles about Paris Heathrow, Chicago Heathrow etc
• We need WP:RS, not WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT. Wheeltapper (talk) 13:11, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

filelakeshoe made the same points and I answered them just above. Since reading WP:UE seems to be quite a struggle, here it is again: "If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." I already linked to the Deutsche Bahn page I was referring to. I can't click it for you. Putting a title in English benefits those who speak English, but not German. The German name is given in both the opening and the box, for those interested. Kauffner (talk) 14:56, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Ignoring or denying is not answering. If you really are finding WP:UE a struggle, maybe you could get someone to help you to read it - in particular they could try to give a simple explanation of "follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject" and "translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy"? The fact that Wikipedia-only original research names have to be followed by the real-world ones so that readers know what the heck article is about rather undermines any claim that there is no loss of accuracy! Out of interest, do you think we should rename The Blitz and Luftwaffe so that people don't have to see German words, and should Exeter St Davids railway station be renamed Exeter Central station to "help" speakers of whichever form of English it is which supposedly uses "central" station for a principal station? Wheeltapper (talk) 15:36, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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