Talk:Kai Holst

Expansion of article

I will start translating the article from Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål version of Wikipedia. Ulflarsen (talk) 08:40, 30 March 2013 (UTC)

After finishing some other articles I have finally started with translating this article in total from the version on Wikipedia in Bokmål/Riksmål, references will also be added and translated. Ulflarsen (talk) 14:21, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I have tried as best as I can do translate the article about Holst, but I am afraid that there still is quite a bit of work there as I am not that good in English. So if anyone fluent in English have time to have a look at it that would be great. The words I have not found, or are not sure about I have placed the Norwegian original word after my attempt of translation.

I have kept very closely to the structure of the original Norwegian article. That is of course open for changes, but at the same time I have put in loads of references which I generally use a lot and I believe is especially important in such a case as this. Regarding the structure the first part of the article is basically presenting his life and then death as detailed as need be. Then in The Holst Case I have tried to place all that is related to the various questions that has been raised.

If there is need for more references just mark it in the text and I try my best to get it. I have also written most all of the original article in Norwegian Bokmål/Riksmål version of Wikipedia. I am not an historian, but I tried my best to read up on the case. I have also sent links of the article to several professionals that have been into the case, among them professor Tore Pryser who kindly gave me some feedback and pointed to some mistakes I had done. If possible I would hope this article could a good article. Best regards, Ulflarsen (talk) 06:59, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Unclear parts

I am trying to fix the outstanding issues with the article. Below are various sections marked and my comments to it:

"His wife Margrete was the niece of Rear Admiral and Norwegian Chief of Defence, Elias Corneliussen."

I am working with finding a reference for Holst's wife being niece of Elias Corneliussen.

"Holst was found by the portier's[clarification needed] wife"

In the book "Fra varm til kald krig" the text is as follows:

"Kai Holst ble om morgenen 27. juni 1945 funnet død av portnerkonen i en leiegård på Rindögatan i Stockholm,"

I translated portnerkonen with portier's wife, guess that is wrong.

"The same physician that in his autopsy report did not conclude as why Holst died, suicide or murder, did sign the police report, but according to Swedish handwriting experts the signature has been faked."

The similar sentence in Norwegian is as follows:

"Samme rettsmedisiner som i sin obduksjonsrapport ikke tok stilling til hvorfor Holst døde, mord eller selvmord, signerte altså politirapporten, men i følge svenske håndskrifteksperter er underskriften forfalsket."

The strange fact which is discussed in the movie Mysteriet Holst is that the pathologist that did the autopsy did not state why Holst died in his report, something that a Swedish pathologist that is interviewed in the movie finds very strange as it is part of their job. The same pathologist, that did not write anything about suicide in his own report, states on the front of the police report that it was suicide, but according to Swedish specialists on handwriting that signature is a fake.

"Holst's superior in Stockholm in 1945, Wladimir Mörch Hansson, had the opinion that Holst was threatened with death and he found lacking Swedish assistance in solving the case impossible to explain."

I have based this statement on the following reference, from the book Taushetens pris:

«Det er alldeles sikkert at Kai ble truet på livet like før krigen sluttet. Han sa det nokså direkte, men han visste ikke klart hvor det kom fra, og han var meget uredd av seg. Han var av den typen som gjorde alt for å komme til bunns i ting, han ville ikke gi seg for press. 'Jeg er ingen svekling,' sa han da - av type var han seig, sta, utholdende og fryktløs. Han gjorde en fenomenal innsats, både som motstandsmann og som etterretningsmann. Det var aldri noe galt i Kai Holst, jeg setter mye inn på å få det fram. Han var førsteklasses. Jeg har ingen dekning - men hvis jeg skulle bygge på den uforklarlige motviljen fra svensk hold mot å hjelpe oss... Men OBS! - jeg sier det ikke. Det tør jeg ikke si. Det kan jeg ikke si. Men at det var noe muffens ved omstendighetene omkring hans død, er det ingen som helst tvil om. Det har bare vist seg umulig å finne nøkkelen.», uttalelse av Wladimir Mørck Hansson, motstandsleder, fra Taushetens pris, side 54

And I tried to translate the statement in total:

"It is absolutely certain that Kai was threatened with death just before the war ended. He said so quite frankly, but he did not know clearly where it came from and he was very brave. He was the kind that did everything to get to the bottom of things, he would not give in for intimidation. 'I am not an weakling' he said then, as a person he was stubborn, enduring and without fear. He did a tremendous job, both as resistance fighter and as an intelligence man. There was never anything wrong in Kai Holst, I want to state that strongly. He was first rate. I have no firm ground - but if I should build on the inexplicable reluctance from the Swedes in helping us... But aware - I don't say it.[clarification needed] That I do not dare say. That I can not say. But that there were something strange with the circumstances surrounding his death, about that there is no doubt at all. It has only been impossible to find the key.", statement by Wladimir Mørck Hansson, resistance leader, from Taushetens pris, 54

The translation can surely be improved, but regarding the tag for clarification within the statement I find that strange as it is quite clearly word-by-word what Mr Hansson told the author Havaardshold and can be read by anyone in that book.

"It has been questioned if Kai Holst's death could be connected with his task at Lillehammer."

The statement is backed up by two references from two different books.

That was the main text, then outstanding issues with the references:

"Under Kaka's supervision it was established a couple of new liquidation teams with connected followers (skyggere), it was mostly females. The guys from Bittern trained the two teams, and it was the plan that they themselves should lead the first liquidations. A series of attempts were made to get rid of bathmaster Hagen, and if I do not remember wrong, Torgersen. All did however fail. The agent who tried to get Kaka was immediately taken in 1943 after one found his apartment in Løvenskioldsgt."[clarification needed], from Rapport om mitt arbeid under okkupasjonen, 173"

The same statement in Norwegian is as follows:

«Under Kakas ledelse ble det så satt opp et par nye eksekusjonslag med tilhørende skyggere; det var for det meste kvinner. Bittern-folkene trente opp de to aksjonslag; det var hensikten at de selv skulle lede de første aksjonene. Det ble gjort en serie forsøk på å skaffe av veie bademester Hagen og hvis jeg ikke tar feil, Torgersen. Alle forsøkene mislyktes imidlertid. Agenten som forsøkte å felle Kaka ble imidlertid ombrakt i 1943 etterat en hadde oppsporet hans bopel i Løvenskioldsgt.», fra Rapport om mitt arbeid under okkupasjonen, side 173

Again, my translation may be wrong, but the Norwegian text is a word-by-word copy of the text in the book, as anyone interested with access to them can control.

"By the end of 1942 and the beginning of 1943 large parts of the former central leader group (Sentralledelse) to Stockholm.[clarification needed] It was two members of the council (Topsy and Otto).[clarification needed] It was Petter and Aksel and Sørlie, in June came Bakke, in August and September came Kaka and Max.[clarification needed] This meant that Stockholm was considerably strengthened and certainly improved the possibility for active support from there."[clarification needed], from Rapport om mitt arbeid under okkupasjonen, 125

The same statement in Norwegian is as follows:

«I slutten av 1942 og begynnelsen av 1943 kom store deler av den tidligere Sentralledelse til Stockholm. Det var to medlemmer av Rådet (Topsy og Otto). Det var Petter og Aksel og Sørlie, i juni kom Bakke, i august og september kom Kaka og Max. Dette medførte en kraftig forsterkning av Stockholm og øket selvfølgelig muligheten for aktiv støtte derfra.», fra Rapport om mitt arbeid under okkupasjonen, side 125

"The family contacts Norwegian authorities to find an answer. 'When mother tried that, after a while then, so she got to know that this she could not do anything with and I don't know if she was threathened but she at least got to know that it could be dangerous for her.[clarification needed] So there is something lying there, that is very disturbing.', statement by Elsebeth Heyerdahl-Larsen, in the film Mysteriet Holst, from 15:59 in the film

The same statement in Norwegian is as follows:

«Familien går til norske myndigheter for å få svar. 'Da mor forsøkte det, etter en stund da, så fikk hun vite at dette kunne hun ikke gjøre noe med og jeg vet ikke om hun ble truet men at hun ihvertfall fikk vite at det kunne være farlig for henne. Så det er noe som ligger der, som er veldig ubehagelig.'», uttalelse av Elsebeth Heyerdahl-Larsen, i filmen Mysteriet Holst, fra 15:59 i filmen

"According to Paus the policeman he did not trust in connection with the investigation of the "Holst-cas", Olav Svendsen.[clarification needed] During the war Svendsen was leading the juridical office (Rettskontoret) in Stockholm and after the liberation he was vice police chief.", from Svik og gråsoner, 173

The same statement in Norwegian is as follows:

«Ifølge Paus var politimannen han ikke hadde tillit til i forbindelse med etterforskningen av Holst-saken, Olav Svendsen. Under krigen var han sjef for det norske Rettskontoret i Stockholm og etter frigjøringen visepolitisjef i Norge.», fra Svik og gråsoner, side 173

"Paus went to Norway and told the Chief of Defence about the man on the train station. He was then told that he could be risking his life if he made further inquiries and that he did best in letting the case rest. 'He was no easily frightened man, my father, but I think he understood that he was moving into an area that was very dangerous and he talked with the family as well that we should be cautions as it could strike them all, and then I frankly speaking think he meant liquedation.'[clarification needed], statement by Ole Paus, son of Major General Ole Otto Paus in the film Mysteriet Holst, from 55:13 in the film

The same statement in Norwegian is as follows:

Paus dro til Norge og fortalte forsvarssjefen om mannen på perrongen. Da fikk han beskjed om at det kunne være livsfarlig å foreta videre undersøkelse og at han gjorde best i å la saken hvile. «Han var ingen lettskremt mann far, men jeg tror han skjønte at han var inne i et område som var veldig farlig og han snakket jo med familien også om det at vi burde være forsiktig for det kunne ramme dem alle, og da tror jeg rett og slett han mente likvidering.», uttalelse av Ole Paus, sønn av generalmajor Ole Otto Paus i filmen Mysteriet Holst, fra 55:13 i filmen

"Borge was however also present on the press conference at Bristol in the autumn 1994 and was among the veterans which there clearly sounded that Holst had been liquidated."[clarification needed], Svik og gråsoner, 178

The same statement in Norwegian is as follows:

«Borge var for øvrig også tilstede på pressekonferansen på Bristol høsten 1994 og tilhørte veteranene som der ga klart uttrykk for at Holst var blitt likvidert.»Svik og gråsoner, side 178

"At Rindögatan 42 they had such an intercom so it rang and daddy was just convinced it was Kai who should arrive so he simply pushed the button.[clarification needed] He then opened the door so he could come in and then he saw the elevator just passing up. Then while he stand there so he hear, I don't know if it was people or voices up there, but he closed the door then.[clarification needed] I think that he got anxious, what is this? It was not Kai, he did not return. I don't know what he thought. And he heard a shot. Kai Holst was murdered in our staircase.", daughter of Svante Ahresons in the film Mysteriet Holst, from 59:20 in the film

The same statement in Norwegian is as follows:

«På Rindögatan 42 så hade de sån här porttelefon så det ringde och pappa var just övertygad om att det var Kai som skulle komma så han bara tryckte på knappen. Så öppnade han dörren så han skulle kunne komma in och sen såg han hissen bare gick vidare. Sen när han står så hör han då, jag vet inte om det var folk och röster där uppe, men han stängde ju dörren då. Jag tror därvid att han blev ängslig, vad är det för någonting? Det var inte Kai, han kom inte tillbaka. Jag vet inte vad han tänkte. Och han hörde ett skott. Kai Holst blev mördad i vår uppgång.», Svante Ahresons datter i filmen Mysteriet Holst, fra 59:20 i filmen

I guess most of the tags with clarification needed is due to my poor translation and I hope that it can be solved by others more fluent in English. I would of course do my best to try to solve any other outstanding issue with the article. Best regards, Ulflarsen (talk) 18:38, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

As for this: "It has been questioned if Kai Holst's death could be connected with his task at Lillehammer." I think using a passive voice may be a problem here; I would like to see in the text who exactly has questioned this (Pryser, many historians, the documentary film?). Also I wonder about this passage: "the forensic pathologist that did Holst's autopsy wrote the following: "Suicidum", which is latin for suicide.[77] The physician that in his autopsy report did not conclude as to why Holst died, suicide or murder, did sign the police report, but according to Swedish handwriting experts the signature has been forged." Is the physician that signed the autopsy the same as the pathologist that did the autopsy and concluded suicide - or were there two different autopsies? I would also like to see a better attribution and more specifics regarding the handwriting experts. Is it solely in the documentary film they are claiming that the signature is forged, or have they also done so in other and maybe more formal venues (been in contact with the authorities or similar)? Regards, Iselilja (talk) 12:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Tore Pryser is the main advocate of connecting Operation Claw with Kai Holst's death, added that to the article. The pathologist and physician is one and same - or intended to, as it is questioned if he actually did sign it. Any assistance in clarifying the language is much appreciated. :-) Regarding the forgery, the only source for it as far as I know is the movie Mysteriet Holst. Best regards, Ulflarsen (talk) 20:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

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