Talk:Joseph Brittan

DYK

Link to the DYK nomination. Schwede66 22:04, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Photo

Brother's house in Oxford Terrace

Alleged slander

Hello Syne41, welcome to Wikipedia. I see that you are a brand new editor. Your edit summaries are interesting: "Previous version amounts to slander. Amended to fit the facts" and "Nothing to indicate that it was scandle [sic] that made them follow his brother and her sisters." Before we get into a discussion on the finer details of this, can I please ask what sources you have for the changes that you have made to the article? Schwede66 07:53, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok, I've waited a few days for a response, and despite a note on your talk page, nothing has come back. I shall thus revert your edits to the fully sourced version as it was before. Happy to have a discussion at some point in the future if you wish. Schwede66 18:11, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

hello Schweede66. I'm very new at this and still not sure how to reply. Not sure if this will work. I'm a decendant and have some old family documents.Syne41 Syne41 (talk) 07:00, 5 February 2013 (UTC) hello Schweede66. I have been away for a couple of days and although we frequently look up info on wikipedia we had not thought of adding to it until my son saw this bit of family details. It is sad that the old agruements between my grandfather and his sister resurface. Rosamond wrote her book without reference to us and it has errors and assumptions, some of which are repeated in this reference ie 5 other children died in infancy, when in fact there were only 7 children all told. I would like to discuss things with you, it is just we get very cross when incorrect information is published. Dick Brittan Syne41 (talk) 20:40, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello Schwede and Syne41, and welcome to wikipedia, Syne. This article is now being tugged in two different directions, so we need to come up with some kind of acceptable solution. The article needs to be properly documented throughout, particularly now that the article has reached Good Article status. However, the article also needs to be factually correct. The problem is that in wikipedia we generally don't use primary source documents, because our job is not to interpret these documents, but rather to use secondary sources where the original source material has been interpreted and made intelligible for us. I'm very sympathetic to anyone who finds factual inaccuracies in an article about an ancestor, because that is exactly why I became a wikipedian, but I was fortunate in that all the "correct material" on my ancestor was published in journals that I could use. Since I'm not sure how to handle primary source documents, would it be possible to begin by just removing disputed material, rather than trying to significantly alter entire paragraphs? For instance, if we are talking about the number of children that died in infancy, would it be OK to omit mention of the number, or just be vague by using the word "several"? It would probably be good, Syne, if you articulated the errors you find on this talk page, along with what documents you have supporting these, and then we may be able to collaboratively come up with some kind of wording that is both correct and still sufficiently documented. I'm not sure how far we'll get, but I would like to see the article be factually correct, and this of course is of paramount importance to any descendants, close relatives, or friends. As an aside, I've removed the GA review from this talk page, because it can be accessed from the good article banner at the top of the page.Sarnold17 (talk) 21:30, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Hello again. I am no expert on our family history and it is rather flattering to find an entry on these pages. I would be happy to see any incorrect or doubtful references removed. I do have some family papers including children's births recorded by Joseph in the family bible. Also the Danish papers and the partnership agreement with Guise for the "Western Flying Post Sherborne and Yeovil Mercury." Most of the other papers are not relevant and reading them is not easy. I do not know his medical qualifications and would be interested. I note that the 1848 Kelly's Directory of Dorset lists him and Guise as the proprietors of "Sherborne & Yeovil Mercury" and he as agent to the Royal Exchange fire and life office.Syne41 (talk) 08:56, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

It's good to have some dialogue about this. I like Sarnold's suggestion of compiling a list here of those things that need updating. So let's compile this, and then we'll have a discussion how we go about that (e.g. an exact number of children who died in infancy vs. "several"). I'll start the list below (it's not complete; it's just a start to get the format rolling. Schwede66 17:55, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

Suggested corrections and amendments

Ok, Syne41 prefers to use email and is a bit daunted by WP. Fair enough. I have received the following from him, and have set up a table so that we can have a discussion here. Here we go:

Issue	Source	Discussion
The number of children who died as infants is wrong. The total was 7. Three died and the rest came to Christchurch. Children were born in 1836, 38,41, 43, 45, 47 and 49 when she died. The three that died were Emma, Adelaide and Mary (not to be confused with Elizabeth Mary).	Entry in family bible and other unpublished family papers.	I would be inclined to simply accept that and change the article accordingly. Schwede66 07:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Joseph Brittan had intended to move to New Zealand prior to his wife's death. His sister in law, Sophia had moved in to help with the family prior to the last birth as she normally did when her sisters had children, and stayed after Elizabeth died. Joseph and Sophia Chandler arranged to get married in Denmark as it was not legal in England to marry your deceased wife's sister. For some reason they changed the plan and married at Gretna Green in accordance with Scottish law and the Church of Scotland. Note that also on the William Hyde were other relations including Sophia' sister. I have not found any reliable record that this caused a scandal in either country.	Unpublished family papers.	This one is tricky. Can we scan the papers and publish them, so that it becomes a public document? Or what else should we do? Schwede66 07:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC) I have sorted the many of the danish papers and written a story to go with them, but am not ready to publish this. Syne41 (talk) 07:42, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
Joseph was born on 12 January 1805 in Bristol, the son of a brewer.	Baptismal certificate.	Good enough. I'll change the article accordingly. Schwede66 07:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
He was probably not a surgeon and also probably never a general practitioner. Kelly's 1848 Directory of Dorset has lists of Gentry and Traders. He is in the latter list as a co-proprietor of Sherborne & Yoevil Mercury and also as agent to Royal Exchange fire and life office, Long Street.	Kelly's 1848 Directory of Dorset.	We should add the information as per the reference. I'll go back to the reference that talks of him having been a surgeon. I would suggest that the article should discuss this discrepancy. Schwede66 07:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)
His eldest son Joseph was not "of a simple mind" and probably not a burden on the family as he had an income from his father's estate. He attended Christ's College in Lyttelton and for a short time in Christchurch, leaving when he was 16. The head master said he should return to England to continue his studies. His obituary in the Christ's College Register records that he came from "Sherborne School, Dorset, where he had made a reputation as an able scholar. He lived a very retired life."	Unpublished family papers.	Much less controversial than the marriage issue, but nonetheless, it would be nice to get a scan of those papers. Is that possible? Schwede66 07:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC) I can scan the obituary and send to Schwede. Syne41 (talk) 07:42, 17 February 2013 (UTC) Great - looking forward to it. Schwede66 21:33, 17 February 2013 (UTC) Now uploaded. Schwede66 17:34, 18 February 2013 (UTC)
With reference to Brittan Street, a subdivider normally names streets and the street name is shown on Deposit Plan 871 for F H Brittan in 1887.	Deposit Plan 871	I'll get back to the library with that info and see what they have to say. Schwede66 21:33, 17 February 2013 (UTC) Awaiting response from the library. Schwede66 20:33, 2 March 2013 (UTC) Response has arrived: "Thanks for giving me this information. I think probably that Frank Brittan suggested the name, which is what subdividers can do, which was then approved. Subdividers do not have automatic naming rights - even today. For example a name has to be accepted by NZ Post. Why it was named depends on whether Frank Brittan wished to honour his father's memory or to have himself recognised. As we will never know, I shall add to the record that it was named at the time Frank Brittan subdivided the land where the street was formed. Are you happy with that? Many thanks for your contribution." That works for me, but before I reply, I'd like to know what you think of this. Schwede66 00:05, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
You refer to land ownership. His brother was involved in this but I do not think he was. I have only found the purchase of RS 300, (paid for before his mariage) and a quarter acre of RS 300 that he bought adjoining Avonside Drive. RS 300 went to a point so had no access to Avonside Drive and only the Canal Reserve for access to the river. Frank bought RS 301 after his father's death. That is all public records that should have been looked at before your references went into print for you to copy their errors.		I'll look into that. Schwede66 18:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

The text currently says:

His first wife was Elizabeth Mary Chandler with whom he had nine children. Five of them died in infancy, and then his wife died in 1849, two weeks after the birth and death of their last child. The surviving children were Joseph (Joe), Arthur, Elizabeth Mary (Mary) and Frances (Frank).

I suggest we change this to the following. Please edit the suggested text and once we all agree, we'll use this to replace the entry on the page:

His first wife was Elizabeth Mary Chandler. According to the biography of one of their daughters, they had nine children, of whom five died in infancy. This is likely to be incorrect, though, as the family bible and family paper list only seven children, with three of them dying in infancy. Children were born in 1836, 1838, 1841, 1843, 1845, 1847 and 1849. The three who died were Emma, Adelaide and Mary. The surviving children were Joseph (Joe), Arthur, Elizabeth Mary (Mary) and Frances (Frank). His wife died in 1849, two weeks after the birth and death of their last child.

That said, I think it would be better if we could match the children's names with their respective birth year and indicate those who died as infants, but for that, we need Syne41's help. So Mary's entry could appear like so. "Elizabeth Mary (known as Mary; 1845–1940)" How does that sound? Schwede66 21:02, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes, definitely give the names and dates together.Sarnold17 (talk) 21:35, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

I still get lost with edits. The children that died were Emma Sophia 9 July 1838 -4 Oct 1839, Adelaide Mary 4 Jan 1841- 13 Jan 1842

and Mary borne 6 Feb 1849 and died 12 hours later. I do not have the family bible, only odd photo copies. 22:19, 4 May 2013 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Syne41 (talk • contribs)

Comments about primary resources

My recommendation on the baptismal record and Bible record is to scan them, and create images in wikipedia for them, and then post them to this talk page. I don't know how orthodox this is, but I think under the circumstances it gives credence to the material that diverges from published sources. Then I would reference the material back to the wikipedia image. I did this in the Mary Pickersgill article (ref #12) as follows: (ref)Inscriptions on tombstone and plaque at Mary Pickersgill gravesite, Loudon Park Cemetery; see File:MaryPickersgill.Tombstone.20120612.jpg and File:MaryPickersgill.GravePlaque.20120612.jpg(/ref)

Concerning the marriage scandal, as I mentioned earlier I never thought the marriage was scandalous, and now Syne confirms that. Even though this notion appeared in the DYK, if the wording in the article could be softened by just omitting the material or noting that it was an opinion (later disputed), that would be OK. You could even put in a footnote to see the table on the talk page.Sarnold17 (talk) 10:31, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

At this stage I do not wish to scan in any family papers. Am still looking at various records when in the City and at home, bur until I have a clear picture would not like to add anything to the excelent article that was not definitely correct, but would like errors removed. I note from Canterbury Assn records that Joseph bought Linwood before his second mariage. Also he does not seem to have been in land speculation like his brother. The nominal index shows him with two properties and Guise with 22.Syne41 (talk) 21:09, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Wikipidia is not supposed to state personal opinions and this is what you have by quoting Rosamond Rolleston. She even had some of the correct, facts, see her papers in the Turnbull Library. The truth is not as exciting as the scandal story, but lets correct the details now. He did train as a sergeon in 1827 but gave up and was in partnership with his brother-in-law in Waymouth about 1840 before joining his brother at the newspaper. He did not leave England in a hurry or have much involvement in land speculation. He bought 100 acres in the Canterbury Settlement on 10 July 1851 and his brother chose Linwood for him (50 acres, I do not know where the rest was). In the 1851 census he is listed as newspaper owner and publisher (formally a sergeon). These are some of the details in public documents, but I am very slow on the internet. You can find the correct information quicker than I can.09:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.236.177 (talk)

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Recent edits

User:Hugo999, can you please note the following:

• Your recent edits have created unreferenced paragraphs. That is not permitted for Great Articles (and should never been done in either case). Please fix that.
• Please use a space after placing a comma (yes, even before numerals / page numbers).
• Do not mark your edits as minor when they are not. The moment you add content it is *not* a minor edit. There are reasons why you should not mark edits as minor that are not minor.

Any questions please ask. Schwede66 04:09, 1 June 2019 (UTC)