Talk:José Aboulker

Language clarification: "...his viva in medicine"

NB: The following discussion is copied from the Language Reference Desk where it was originally conducted. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:12, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Under the heading, Aboulker and the Metropolitan resistance: "...he had his viva in medicine." Per the French Wikipedia page: "... il soutint sa thèse de médecine." How to rewrite the English correctly translated and comprehensible to a speaker of American English, please? -- Deborahjay (talk) 18:15, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Viva is short for viva voce, usually the final examination that a degree candidate has to pass before receiving a doctorate. Perhaps "defended his thesis in medicine"? Deor (talk) 18:27, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't think "defended his thesis in medicine" is quite right. First degrees in medicine are not research degrees, even if the word "doctor" is in the name. There is no thesis to defend. If the concept of viva voce exam is not familiar to the readers, I'd suggest either calling it an "oral exam" instead, or phrasing it as "... he had his viva (i.e. oral) examination in medicine". --71.162.233.193 (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure about that as it applies to France? With regard to Scotland, Arthur Conan Doyle says "He completed his doctorate on the subject of tabes dorsalis in 1885," which implies to me the writing of a thesis for a first medical degree. Deor (talk) 18:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A first medical degree does not require research/a thesis and is in fact not a doctorate in the U.K. and Ireland. It is a bachelor's degree despite the fact that one may take the title "Doctor". One may go on to receive a Doctorate through research, but it's not neccesary to hold one to be a medical Doctor. Fribbler (talk) 19:14, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Although generally treated as a single degree, it's technically a double bachelors: usually MBChB (Bachelor of Medicine, Bachelor of Surgery) and it's not exclusive to the UK. Gwinva (talk) 22:39, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

But look at the original question and the French expression appearing therein. Soutint sa thèse de médecine can mean nothing but "defended his thesis in medicine"; it's exactly parallel to the American expression. Whatever hoops one has to jump through in the UK or elsewhere to become a doctor, the French WP is definitely saying that Aboulker passed an oral examination on his doctoral thesis. Deor (talk) 23:11, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

For those who read French you can refer to this page [1]. AldoSyrt (talk) 07:50, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be a confusion between doctorat/doctorale and the student doctor's undergrad medicine degree or similar where viva voce is a routine part of exam requirements in many schools, examples here to start with[2] Question is, was Jose Aboulker a doctoral post grad student and finally awarded a PhD? Julia Rossi (talk) 05:35, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

All evidence I have indicates that he studied medicine in his native Algeria to become a physician, and pursued further qualification (residency) in Paris where eventually practiced medicine as a neurosurgeon. (I use these terms deliberately to avoid confusion with the English-language word "doctor.") The page was initially translated from the French Wikipedia and remains in non-native English that would benefit from comparison to the source (i.e. corrected translation) for proper editing. -- Deborahjay (talk) 07:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The non-native English looks normal to me and non-committal if it is simply saying he did a viva in Algeria. The Fr article doesn't say afaik, that he was onto his doctorate. Vivas are part of exams to be a surgeon too. Neurosurgeons according to wiki do so many years training and include doctorates in the higher options on the way. In the French article, his father was a surgeon (chirurgien) – i can't find a reference there to anyone being a neurosurgeon (neurochirurgien). Unless the french is supported by citation, it's hard to be clear even accepting that it literally translates as him supporting/defending his thesis. That's where your citations to his achievements come into it. I personally wouldn't presume a doctoral thesis since neurosurgeons write a lot of stuff in support of their theses (as in medical propositions) about areas of their field anyway without it being doctoral. Fwiw, Julia Rossi (talk) 08:13, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The non-native English which appeared suspicious to me was not the initial subject of this query (which I attributed to unfamiliar, possibly Continental, usage), but further on: "...in 1946 he resumed his medicinal studies. He passed the internal examinations at the Hospital of Paris..." [mild emphases mine; original: "...ses études de médecine.Il passa successivement les concours d'interne..."]. Even were we to compare with with the presumed source (under a different heading chronologically), its lacking citations and my own relative unfamiliarity with accreditation for the medical profession in these countries made me hesitate to edit - and bring it to this forum for further scrutiny. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 15:42, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

The internat refers to the last years of the French medical studies. The concours d'interne refers to a competitive examination before the internat years. According to their rank at this examination, medical students choose their teatching hospital, their speciality, etc. At the end of internat the student defends his thesis to get the diplôme d'Etat de docteur en médecine. It is not a research thesis (PhD) but a special kind of thesis called thèse d'exercice. These are medical studies today in France. It was slightly different in those days (circa 1940), and medical studies in Algeria should not be different as those in France at that time. More here [[3]]. AldoSyrt (talk) 20:05, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Ambiguity

Hi, I've changed "viva in medicine" to "medical school viva" in an attempt to remove any ambiguity with doctorate implications because it contextually isn't a dissertation viva voce. Please revert if it isn't working. salut, Julia Rossi (talk) 01:42, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Section heads

I've taken Aboulker's name off each one since his connection is fully implied because it is an article about him anyway. Hope this is okay, Julia Rossi (talk) 01:22, 4 July 2008 (UTC)