Talk:Jimmy Greaves

Untitled

Does anyone know what the "London-to-Mexico World Cup Rally" is? Is this real or some kind of vandalism? Arthur Holland 13:51, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

It's a bit out of place but Greaves was for a time a rally car driver. Here is a short paragrph (scroll to 28th May). I was in London at the time an saw him drive by. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 13:47, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Splendid. That explains that. Thanks. Arthur Holland 00:03, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Would anybody be so kind of helping me contact Jimmy Greaves (James) As i think i am related to him. My name is Josh Greaves thanks.

Dixie Dean reference

"In 1960 he became the youngest ever player to score 100 league goals in English football at the age of 20 years 290 days (and at 23 was the same age as Dixie Dean when he scored his 200th)."

I'm not in the know on the player and don't want to wrongly edit, but this statement can't possibly be true. For it to be possible Dixie would have to have scored 101 league goals in the space of twelve months. Either Dixie Dean was younger when he scored his 100th, or the reference is vandalism by a sensitive Everton fan.

Jimmy Greaves was born Dagenham, and not West Ham. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.58.18 (talk) 21:48, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

The Dixie Dean reference is mentioned in various place. "Your comment about 101 league goals in the space of twelve months" is based on your miscalculation. The intervening period is not 12 months, but a minimum of 2 years and 70 days.46.7.85.68 (talk) 20:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

I don't know if it's of any interest to the Article, but based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_footballers_in_England_and_Scotland_by_number_of_league_goals Greaves holds the record for the most (old) First Division Goals 357. Only two players scored more League goals than him, Dixie Dean with 379 of which 69 were in lower Divisions, and Arthur Rowley 433 who spent most of his career in the lower divisions. I can't give an exact date, but you can also work out from this, that Greaves was also the youngest player to score 300 league goals at age 27.46.7.85.68 (talk) 21:46, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 17:14, 27 August 2007 (UTC) The Statement about Dean and Greaves vages is correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.58.18 (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Inter Milan reference

Text states 9 goals in 12 games but stats tables has it as 14 games. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.61.169 (talk) 20:13, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

In the honours section, it shows that he won Serie A with AC. I those days, Serie A did not exist, but more to the point, did he actually get a medal for this. The reason I ask is that he played so few games for them. I know that in the old English first Division, the qualification was 14 games for a medal.46.7.85.68 (talk) 10:58, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

The FA [1] seem to think he won the title. A reliable source I would have thought. Others seem to differ without any explanation.--Egghead06 (talk) 07:08, 29 August 2023 (UTC)

Records

I think it's fair to say that this article fails to make reference to the numerous goalscoring records held by Greaves. As an example, he holds the record for the most first division goals, he also holds the record for most seasons as the 1st Division's leading scorer. His total of first class goals is only beaten by John Aldridge by one goal, but Aldridge scored well over 100 goals in the lower divisions, whereas all of Greaves goals were scored playing for first division teams or England. He also holds the record for most hat tricks for England. 86.42.241.158 (talk) 20:35, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Well perhaps you could add some information on this with citations, anyone is able to make contributions to the article rather than just comment here.Tmol42 (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

My concern is that I am not that au-fait with the technicalities of Wiki especially the hyper-links, and I don't want to spoil the article with my incompetence. If you want to do it as a joint venture, I am happy to provide stats and sources.86.42.253.139 (talk) 09:39, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

ONE OF THE GREATEST GOALSCORERS OF ALL TIME

Of the top goal scorers needs citation? Its not an opinion as stated its PURE FACT (And I am a Manchester United fan)

Englands 3rd goalscorer of all time

6! Hat Tricks for England

Scored 5 goals in games

In Top 5 of BOTH Chelsea and Spurs ALL TIME GOAL SCORERS LISTS

SPURS TOP ALL TIME GOALSCORER

No. Player Club Appearances Total Goals Domestic League Domestic Cup Europe Goals Per Game 1. Jimmy Greaves 379 266 220 37 9 0.70

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._records_and_statistics

CHELSEA ALL TIME GOALSCORERS 7 Jimmy Greaves 1957–1961 124 3 2 3 0 132

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tottenham_Hotspur_F.C._records_and_statistics — Preceding unsigned comment added by VinDibs (talk • contribs) 00:22, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Just to add to what ManU Fan has written, you can also add "Most top flight goals (357)" and "With Dixie Dean, one of only two players to score 300 top flight goals in England". Also "Second highest scorer of first class goals (449) behind John Aldridge (450), but unlike Aldridge all of Greaves's goals were scored while playing for First Division clubs". 46.7.85.68 (talk) 14:34, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

How could Aldrige scored first class goals whilst not at a First Division club?--EchetusXe 18:58, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The definition that I have been given of first class goals are goals scored while playing for a national football league side in competitive matches, or for the national team, or in the competition proper of the national FA cup. It's not the grade of football team that is the arbiter, but the grade of competition. If you look at Pele's record, you will see that there are two often two figures for him, of just under 600 and about 1,300 the reason for the difference is that the higher figure relates to goals that include club friendlies and exhibition games. Clearly for the point of this exercise you have to consider premier league teams as being national football league teams. This definition is of course transferable between nations because it encompasses all the major competitions. It also distinguishes "top flight" goals which are goals scored while playing for a top flight club in a competitive match which could be against a "non-league" team in FAC3. You will see in my comment above that I do distinguish that point in my reference to Greaves and Aldridge.46.7.85.68 (talk) 17:11, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

GA

How is this article a GA given a) the amount of unreferenced content and b) the amount of content attributed to his autobiography? GiantSnowman 07:52, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

@Cloudz679: @EchetusXe: @Egghead06:? GiantSnowman 07:53, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Don't know. I was a major contributor to the enhancements to the article this year (mostly because I acquired a copy of his autobiography) but neither the nominator for GA nor a reviewer for GA status. I don't have access to my books at the mo but seem to remember his goals etc. are listed in his book.--Egghead06 (talk) 07:59, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you serious? Virtually every sentence has a reference at the end but ok, no references in the honours section. So we need to find a reference for the fact that Jimmy Greaves won the World Cup with England in 1966? As for the autobiography point: Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Self-published and questionable sources as sources on themselves. Are you coming down on point five that "the article is not based primarily on such sources." I could get ahold of a biography that could replace the autobiography references for such uncontentious facts such as "Greaves scored five goals in a 6–2 win against league champions Wolverhampton Wanderers in the third match of the 1958–59 season", but honestly I have better things to do with my time. It more than meets the GA criteria.--EchetusXe 13:48, 2 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, using an autobio for some stuff is fine - but not for the vast majority of the article! It currently should not be a GA. GiantSnowman 19:54, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

This article really does not deserve GA status.It has multiple errors. As an example Greaves was born in Dagenham. He never won a championship medal with AC Milan.These are matters that have been raised to, and never amended by the author. The reference to Dave Mackay nearing retirement is debatable. He continued to play for another five years for Spurs after the ECWC (1963) victory, and after he left he played another four years for Derby and Swindon. In my opinion, it is something of a tragedy that this article is so sloppy because he is accepted as one of the truly great players, and this page will be frequently referenced46.7.85.68 (talk) 22:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)

Page 3 of Greavsie, his autobiography, "I was born in Manor Park, East London, in February 1940"........--Egghead06 (talk) 06:07, 28 November 2015 (UTC)--Egghead06 (talk) 06:07, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

As for the comment on McKay reaching the end of his career, Greaves book does not say this. It says that management were starting to dismantle the double winning side by 1963.--Egghead06 (talk) 06:21, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

You are correct regarding Manor Park. My apologies. Regarding Dave Mackay, I have not seen the passage you refer to but as it is mentioned by you here, it clearly looks like your interpretation. The ECWC win was in 1963. Mackay played from Spurs from 59-68, so far from reaching the end of his career, he was less than half way through his time at Spurs and he played another another four years after he left them.46.7.85.68 (talk) 11:07, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Not sure it is "my" interpretation but another editors. Feel free to edit it yourself. Wiki is the encyclopedia anyone can edit.....--Egghead06 (talk) 11:55, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't do edit's because I don't know how to do the links that should support them and therefore I risk damaging other peoples handywork. So does the bio specifically mention Mackay in that vein? Wheoever made the comment, I think that I have made a compelling case that Mackay was still a long way from retirement, especially as he went on to play for Spurs for another five years.46.7.85.68 (talk) 14:39, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

It's all here. --Egghead06 (talk) 14:52, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I forgot exactly what Greaves said, but I have no edited it remove the reference to retirements.--EchetusXe 17:29, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I am surprised that this article, informative as it is, reached GA status without a section on the subject's early life. Other than a sentence or two at the start of the 'Chelsea' heading, there is nothing at all on that topic. A GA review might be in order. The language in the template should also be British English. Regards 00:33, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Statistics

Unless I have just woken up in a parrallel Wikipedia Universe i thought there is a general style of table on many footballers' pages which includes their career records that have remained intact for some time. So I am a bit surprised out of the blue to see Jimmy Greaves plucked from all those for the blitz of his entire stats table whereas there has been to date, nor seems no concerted exercise now to strip all other similar former and current footballers' articles of the stats tables. If one were to start anywhere why not pick off those which include 'assists' many of which are also not referenced satisifactorily. Some discussion here or if there is felt to be a need to move to denude all such articles a discussion initiated on the Wikipedia Project Page would be a consensual way to proceed. Tmol42 (talk) 00:00, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Not sure what the problem is here. These three tables were/are referenced. His book details his club goals (and all of his club appearances) and online sources are noted for internationals.--Egghead06 (talk) 06:33, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Mexico Rally?

Greaves joined West Ham in (item says) Mar 1970 . Item also says that Greaves took part in the Mexico Rally while out of the Spurs first team. Rally started in Apr 70. by which time he was at West Ham.46.7.85.68 (talk) 16:10, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the "out of the Spurs first team" bit.--EchetusXe 17:31, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

West Ham Transfer Fee.

I recall that when the transfer was first announced, it was as a part exchange for Martin Peters who at £200,000 (not £220,000 as reported here, was then Britan's most expensive player. The press reported that Greaves was the makeweight in the deal at £80,000. Greaves later stated in the press, that the correct price was £54,000. If you Google "Jimmy Greaves £54,000", there are numerous sources to confirm this.46.7.85.68 (talk) 17:28, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Greaves states in his own book Greavsie (page 302 in my edition), "My value in the Martin Peters deal was put at £90,000". Guess he should know?--Egghead06 (talk) 06:03, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

It would help if you avoided the sarcastic comments. My knowledge of this is based on interviews that Greaves gave at the time. The fee was widely reported (then) as being £200,000 for which Greaves was supposed to be the makeweight at £80,000. Greaves went on the record at the time claiming to be annoyed at the inaccurate reporting and said the figure was in fact £54,000. As I said there are multiple sources for this if you google "Jimmy Greaves" and "£54,000" The same happens if you Google Peters and this amount.Also the Wiki page on Peters quotes his price at £200,000 (not £220,000 as reported here) of which £150,000 was cash which is a lot closer to the £54,000 quoted in multiple sources. Similarly, if you look at the progression of the British transfer record in Wiki, you will see Peters is listed there at £200,000. I have to say that in spite of your "comment" about what Greaves should know it also applies to the interviews that he gave at the time. However, if he is also the source for "£220,000" then it needs to be treated with a degree of scepticism, because multiple sources report £200,000. I have no idea why he should give two different stories years apart, but that is clearly what he has done. As to which one is correct, the £54,000 has the benefit of proximity, as well as being supported by the almost universally accepted figure of £200,000. Then of course these is the Martin Peters autobiography where he states that he was sold for £200,000. Finally, in the realm of who should (or shouldn't) know about these things, the official WHU website http://www.whufc.com/articles/20030606/year-by-year_2236884_1135022 mentions the price paid for Peters as £200,000.

I have looked for the £220,000 figure elsewhere and as far as I can see, it is only found in Wiki and relies on Greaves who should be a reliable source, but who contradicts this with statements he made in the media at the time of the transfer. In addition Greaves is somewhat contradicted by others such as Peters and WHU who should also normally be considered as reliable sources.46.7.85.68 (talk) 12:25, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Any sarcasm is entirely interpreted as such by you. As usual Wiki descends into personal comment and judgement in an instant. What joy!!!!--Egghead06 (talk) 13:32, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

Do you think in the light of all the evidence that I have just offered, that your comment "Guess he should know?" was appropriate? Did it add anything to the debate? Do you think that in light of my last post, there is a possibility that Greaves could be wrong? Yes he should know, but when he contradicts himself, why would you give credence to one statement over another. All you can do in those circumstances is to qualify the comment, especially when there are multiple sources that contradict him including sources that also should know. A more appropriate response would have been, Greaves states in his own book Greavsie (page 302 in my edition), "My value in the Martin Peters deal was put at £90,000". Your additional comment was at best an uninformed point of view, and at worst, sarcasm. Even relying on that statement leaves room for doubt, e.g, "put at". By whom?

Do you accept that in spite of what Greaves says and the fact that he contradicted his original statements on the issue, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that these figures may be wrong?46.7.85.68 (talk) 14:29, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

If you Google 'Jimmy Greaves £54,000' then there are no reliable sources to see, just a few places that mirror an old version of the Wikipedia page. It seems to be generally reported that Peters was bought for £200,000 though, which casts doubt on the accuracy of the valuation figures Greaves stated. In the absence of a convincing source to give a definitive answer I have simply removed the valuations and stated he moved in part-exchange for Martin Peters. I don't see why you are getting so worked up about it either way, it is not uncommon for different sources to have slight discrepancies over transfer fees. They can sometimes be complicated, perhaps Greaves included a signing on fee into the total transfer amount, or there was some stipulation that later added £20,000 to the final fee, or a friendly fixture, or a paying off of Greaves' contract, or any number of factors.--EchetusXe 17:46, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

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References

There were headers for the

and the one book, labeling them as 'general' and 'specific'. I've removed both, as they're unnecessary since inline citations are obviously 'specific' references.

I added a "Further Reading" section for the one formerly 'general' reference (Greaves' autobiography), but it explicitly stated in the Wikipedia MOS that "Further Reading" should not include a book cited in the inline citations, especially if it's cited numerous times, as is the case here.

I'd like to reformat the first inline reference to the autobiography and delete it from "Further Reading". Any comments? Matuko (talk) 03:23, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Not the highest scorer

Harry kane in now tottenhams highest scorer with 267 198.135.149.251 (talk) 14:01, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

267 is less than 268. Mwiqdoh (talk) 15:56, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

This has been discussed at WT:FOOTY, and there is dispute over his goal tally, so the tag and explanation later in text should remain. Spike 'em (talk) 16:54, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Even though he is clearly no longer (joint) top scorer, there is still a dispute over his final Spurs tally. Spike 'em (talk) 20:43, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

We already say "The club attributes him to 266 blah blah blah" what are we disputing about now? Mwiqdoh (talk) 04:42, 12 March 2023 (UTC)