Talk:Jimmy Greaves/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: Cloudz679 (talk · contribs) 11:10, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

• I will review this article. C679 11:10, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
  • I am going on holiday on Wednesday for a week. So please bear that in mind if the review is put on pending. Cheers.--EchetusXe 12:31, 14 June 2014 (UTC)
• Sorry for the delay, at nearly 4,000 words there is a chance I won't be able to get through all of it before your holiday. I am willing to extend the time as requested due to the situation, though.

Comments on prose (lead and club career only)

• is he a (former England international footballer) and television pundit or a former (England international footballer and television pundit)? Looks like the second, but I would say his notability derives primarily from being a player and the lead should reflect that.
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• FA Cup and ECWC (and most likely FA Youth Cup too) are competitions spanning two years and should be denoted as such.
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Still an issue in the honours section. C679 20:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
      • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• We rarely use the term "traded" with footballers, even when another player moves the other way, prefer "exchanged", "transferred" or "sold"
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• group stages or group stage?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "was injured in the group stages of the 1966 World Cup and lost his first team place to Geoff Hurst in the final." there seems to be something missing here
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• what is "schoolboy representative football"

changed to be scouted as a schoolboy.--Egghead06 (talk) 15:07, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• link "two-legged tie"
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• why is "club's top scorer" linked to "list of chelsea f.c. seasons"?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Drake rested him for six weeks from mid-November as he did not wish the praise Greaves was receiving to go to his head, and he marked his return to the first team at Stamford Bridge with four goals in a 7–4 victory over Portsmouth on Christmas Day." go to his head, rested him and marked his return could be reworded
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• top-scorer or top scorer? various occasions
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• link "signing on fee" to "Signing bonus", I have never heard it called a signing on fee though... thoughts?
  • Thats what he called it.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• is "flying scissor kick" the wording used the reference?
  • Yeah.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "rolled a shot past goalkeeper Adam Blacklaw" a bit ambiguous
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• third-place or third place?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• what's the significance of finishing four points behind Ipswich? Were they first or second?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Spurs ended the season in poor form, despite Greaves scoring a hat-trick in a 5–2 win over Liverpool at Anfield, and finished the league in second-place, six points behind Everton." can't see the connection for the first clause, second-place or second place?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "In the European Cup Winners' Cup, Tottenham beat Rangers (Scotland), ŠK Slovan Bratislava (Czechoslovakia) and OFK Beograd (Yugoslavia) to reach the final" why do the country names follow the teams?
  • Just to add detail.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "exited the FA Cup and Cup Winners' Cup at the opening stages" does this mean in the first round?
  • Top-flight clubs are given a bye to the Third Round of the FA Cup, where Spurs were knocked out.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Strike partner Bobby Smith left the club in the summer, though Greaves would form a highly effective partnership with new signing Alan Gilzean." sounds like POV to me
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• why is "club's top-scorer" linked to "list of tottenham hotspur f.c. seasons"?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• posted an eighth place finish in the league
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Greaves had a poor season by his high standards" not very neutral
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Greaves and Chivers were not as effective together as he[who?] had hoped." there is an outstanding cleanup tag here
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• link hat-trick on the first mention
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "On arriving in Blackpool, Greaves and his team-mates had been informed by members of The Press that the game, the following day, was unlikely to go ahead due to a frozen pitch" was he really informed by members of a New Zealand newspaper?

Changed to a better link.--Egghead06 (talk) 14:55, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Greaves was struggling with his fitness and his motivation. He felt he had become a journeyman footballer and that apart from Moore, Geoff Hurst, Billy Bonds and Pop Robson, few of his team-mates could play good football. Towards the end of his career with West Ham Greaves began to drink more and more alcohol, often going straight from training in Chadwell Heath to a pub in Romford, where he would remain until closing time. He was in the early stages of alcoholism.[50]" don't feel this reference really covers all of the text. It is quite editorial. Perhaps attribute some of the feelings to him explicitly.
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "for two years did not touch a football or attend a game" is this verifiable?
  • Thats what he said happened.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I feel that him claiming not to have touched a football does not satisfy WP:V. Not attending a game is ok. C679 20:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "hospitalized" doesn't seem to fit with the British English used in this article
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 17:06, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
    • I have no issue with Oxford spelling if it's used consistently, the comment was intended regarding the word itself, which I feel is an American expression. C679 20:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

C679 14:22, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Remaining prose, referencing

• link "cap"
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "The tour of the American continents was not considered a success" by whom?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "During the defeat to Brazil a stray dog ran onto the pitch and evaded all of the players' efforts to catch it until Greaves got down on all fours to beckon the animal. He was successful in catching the dog, but it proceeded to urinate all over Greaves' England shirt. The Brazilian player Garrincha thought the incident was so amusing that he took the dog home as a pet." ref is broken. not sure how encyclopaedic the content is, sounds quite trivial.
  • Trimmed it down a bit.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "to take his goal tally ahead of Bobby Charlton to 35" prose
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "which meant that he held the overall England goalscoring record until 1968 when the record was retaken by Charlton." awkward phrasing
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "He scored four goals again on 29 June 1966, in a 6–1 win over Norway, and in doing so ensured himself a starting place in the 1966 FIFA World Cup.[71]" was that in a warm-up match, then?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Greaves holds the record for most hat-tricks for England — six in all" ref?
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• The style of play is all cited to his biography, are they his views on himself or the opinions of others?
  • He said those attributes made him a great goalscorer.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Greaves became a columnist at The Sun newspaper in the early 1980s.[81] His column was cancelled after a 30 year run, and he then worked as a columnist for The Sunday People." strange focus on the end of the work instead of the work itself, consider "he continued in the role for 30 years before it was cancelled in 20XX" or "continuing in the role for 30 years until its cancellation in 20XX.
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• "He released his autobiography, Greavsie, in 2003." what about the 2004 version?
  • What version?.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
    • There are two versions (2003 and 2004) of the book cited at the bottom of the article:
      • Greaves, Jimmy; Les Scott (2004), Greavsie: The Autobiography, Time Warner, ISBN 0-7515-3445-5
      • Greaves, Jimmy; Les Scott (2003), Greavsie: The Autobiography, Time Warner, ISBN 0-316-72529-3 C679 21:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
• Sorry this was a copy-paste error, I have re-worded the query. C679 21:43, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
  • OK, I have removed the 2003 edition. It just confuses matters.--EchetusXe 16:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
    • You might like to check the page nos if you do that. They differ between versions.--Egghead06 (talk) 17:06, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

• "Greaves has also written numerous books in partnership with his lifelong friend, the journalist and author Norman Giller." it would be interesting to have a bibliography section listing these; there appears to be an albeit unreferenced list on Giller's Wikipedia article.
  • Yeah, I couldn't find a complete list anywhere.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• club statistics appear not to be referenced
• Sorted.--EchetusXe 16:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

• many Good Articles on footballers have an "international goals" list in the statistics section. I wonder if it would be a good addition here.
  • I wouldn't mind but some have argued these are excessive detail.--EchetusXe 21:23, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
    • Standalone lists have survived at AfD so I feel there is not consensus against such lists. C679 21:41, 17 June 2014 (UTC)
      • I would have no problem in a list being added if a source was found.--EchetusXe 16:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
        • googling "international goals greaves" brings up this source, which is usable. C679 17:34, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
          • Ok, thanks. I added the list.--EchetusXe 12:57, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

• fn 29 59 and 68 (Daily Mirror) and fn7 are broken links
  • Sorted.--EchetusXe 16:59, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

C679 20:35, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

• Sorry for the delay, I am currently limited on time. Will finish the review when I can. C679 07:20, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Second read-through

• "top-flight football" should be linked or reworded
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "Though he was born in Manor Park, Greaves was raised in Hainault, and was scouted playing football while a schoolboy by Chelsea's Jimmy Thompson and in 1955 was signed on as an apprentice to become one of "Drake's Ducklings", named after manager Ted Drake in response to Manchester United's "Busby Babes".[3]" prose
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "Greaves began the 1958–59 season strongly, and in the third match of the season he scored five goals past league champions Wolverhampton Wanderers in a 6–2 win.[11]" these two ideas are linked although the prose currently presents them as separate and POV. How about "Greaves scored five goals in a 6–2 win against league champions Wolverhampton Wanderers in the third match of the 1958–59 season."
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "Greaves scored 30 goals in 42 matches in the 1959–60 campaign" this seems to include cup matches but the figure immediately prior does not.
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "However, he became increasingly disillusioned at Chelsea as an inability to defend effectively meant the club were a long way from launching a title challenge and they exited the FA Cup in embarrassing fashion by losing 2–1 at home to Fourth Division side Crewe Alexandra.[14]" seems rather POV
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "However, he was unhappy at the thought of leaving London and tried to cancel the move before it was fully confirmed, but "Rossoneri" manager Giuseppe Viani refused to annul the deal.[17]" seems awkward with "however" and "but" together
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• the date of his transfer and/or debut for Milan are absent from the article
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• link "scissor kick"
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "He went on to feature in the semi-finals of the European Cup, having both a goal disallowed for offside in a 3–1 defeat to Benfica at the Estádio da Luz and another disallowed for offside in the return fixture, a 2–1 win at White Hart Lane.[27]" prose
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "Spurs started the 1962–63 season strongly, and Greaves scored hat-tricks in 6–2 and 4–0 victories over Manchester United and Ipswich Town respectively, as well as four goals in a 9–2 win over Nottingham Forest.[31]" more POV-sounding content. trim the prose
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "Spurs ended the season in poor form, despite Greaves scoring a hat-trick in a 5–2 win over Liverpool at Anfield. Spurs finished the league campaign in second place, six points behind champions Everton." more POV. quantify this or remove it
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "key players such as Danny Blanchflower, John White and Dave Mackay were reaching their mid-30s and had to be replaced – which hindered the club's ability to win trophies in the short term.[35]" POV
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "After leaving West Ham, Greaves left football and for two years did not attend a match and he put on weight.[52]" prose
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "Drinking formed a large part of his life and he became an alcoholic; at times he was drinking 20 pints of lager during the day and consuming a bottle of vodka in the evening.[52] He was also regularly driving whilst drunk.[53]" this should be properly attributed
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "In total he scored 13 goals in 12 games." ref?
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "He played in all four of England's games at the 1962 FIFA World Cup in Chile, scoring one goal in the 3–1 victory over Argentina before playing in the quarter-final defeat to Brazil.[67]" can we have an independent reference for this?
  • I don't see why this is controversial?--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "During the defeat to Brazil a stray dog ran onto the pitch and evaded all of the players' efforts to catch it until Greaves got down on all fours to beckon the animal. The Brazilian player Garrincha thought the incident was so amusing that he took the dog home as a pet.[68]" ha ha. is there another (decent) source for this?
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• "The following year, on 3 October, he scored another hat-trick against Northern Ireland[70] to take his goal tally to 35, ahead of Bobby Charlton, which meant that he held the overall England goalscoring record until 1968 when Charlton overtook his goal tally." ref?
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)
• The style of play section would benefit from some independent sources
  • Done.--EchetusXe 21:53, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

C679 15:32, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for the swift changes. The article now meets the criteria and I am passing it as such. C679 23:14, 31 July 2014 (UTC)