Talk:Jean Alfonse

Recent edits

Someone is trying to use this article to argue their viewpoint. It seems they feel that Jean Fonteneau was actually Portugese, and they think they have the articles to prove it, and they're using this wikipedia page to present their original research.

I have changed the article to reflect what standard encyclopedias in the field say.

Someone revert edited my changes and called them vandalism, when all of my changes were referenced.

This article should be renamed Jean Fonteneau. At minimum--- the article should reflect "doubt" about his origins. And not take sides in a disputed matter. 129.133.151.149 (talk) 22:24, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

IP, I replied on my talk page. I am not tied to this article or any "viewpoint" concerning it, but it seems that you are. With this edit, we can see that you removed sourced material with no explanation and are contesting that Jean Alfonse was Portugese. If the sources are wrong, then I understand changing the material. But if WP:Reliable sources state that he is Portugese and other WP:Reliable sources state otherwise, we should note both aspects in the article...in a WP:Due weight way, unless the other sources are in the significant minority. You also changed "Afonso" to " Fonteneau" throughout the article when the article is titled "Jean Alfonse." This is inconsistent. If you want the article changed, you need to seek out WP:Requested moves and make a solid case for moving the article. Also Template:DEFAULTSORT should be the title of the article. It should be "Alfonse, Jean," not "Fonteneau, Jean." I will alert WP:Biography, WP:History and WP:France to this matter. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:54, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Like I just stated, since no one else has yet commented on the issue, I suppose I'm going to have to research this myself and start a WP:RfC on it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:55, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

"I am not tied to this article or any "viewpoint" concerning it, but it seems that you are." Thanks for the gratuitous hostility. I've been civil to you, apparently I cannot expect the same treatment. I took minor citations that did not even link to the issue at hand, and replaced them with encyclopedia references. For this, I got the snide comment "one or more of your recent contributions to Jean Alfonse have been undone because they did not appear constructive."

If encyclopedia citations are not constructive, I do not know what it. You introduced attitude into this.

"we can see that you removed sourced material with no explanation and are contesting that Jean Alfonse was Portugese." The encyclopedias say he was not. One of his names is Alfonse de Saintonge, which means he was from Saintonge, which is in France, not Portugal.

"I will alert WP:Biography, WP:History and WP:France to this matter." Alert whoever you want. I did not create this situation. 129.133.151.149 (talk) 01:26, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

You should know, unless you're a complete novice, that the whole article needs to be rewritten, at least specifying that there is confusion as to the man's origins. I have two well-researched scholarly encyclopedias on my side, you have a couple dead links to unknown publications. 129.133.151.149 (talk) 01:28, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

IP, the only one who introduced hostility into this is you. You got a WP:STiki script posted to your talk page for reasons I made very clear. The script is automated; they are not my words. As for dead links, do read WP:Dead links. I will look into this matter thoroughly later, and will start an RfC on it at that time. You should know that your Template:DEFAULTSORT arrangement is currently wrong, and will be remedied regardless, since it is supposed to go by the title of this article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:37, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

LuzoGraal, I just noticed this edit by you. Is there anything you want to state in this section? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Of course, it will always be a controversial subject, even better than the sources put above (i.e, more direct, if I remember the research), is the study placed in the middle of the text as a source (among others, I can still place another source on this, but more in French and Portuguese) - and that refers to the personal letters exchanged with the King of Portugal and not only, and source from sources from his own hand - direct documentary sources, where there is no doubt of the Portuguese origin (and everything indicates, also pilot still left from his adolescence, in the first trips to India). That at that time was assumed the nickname and the new identity where people resided, was more than common, and we have other cases here (many in this Age). Incidentally, the navigator is nicknamed in a letter, also of "Joao Afonso Frances" by the King where it is known, in the sequence of letters that he is Portuguese (or referred to, also subject, altough naturality is more decisive than being "subject), as a nickname (for the Portuguese POV - tipical at that time) of his course, new identity and current life. We can argue, no dramas, there will always be controversy in these mysterious navigators, and more research. --LuzoGraal (talk) 23:34, 18 September 2017(UTC)

Addendum: I say research in the sources and studies of them. The Encyclopaedia does not do doctrine or research, but uses the sources, of course. In a way, it was both (even you could put something consensual in the article), and more interesting to many historians is to know what he did in a part of his life, which is still unclear. --LuzoGraal (talk) 23:50, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Fraud

This article is a fraud.

User LuzoGraal is using it to argue his OPINION that Jean Fonteneau was Portuguese, when he obviously was not.

This kind of lying should not be accepted.

I made valid edits, with citations, and all of it was reverse edited by LuzoGraal.

If the standards of wikipedia were to be met, this article would at least say "His origins are unknown..." or something to that effect. (Although that in itself would be stupid since he's Fonteneau d'Saintonge, and Saintonge is in France, not Portugal.

How many lying articles are there in facebook?129.133.151.149 (talk) 04:42, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

Need to move file to João Afonso

I think it has been established that the man's real name was João Afonso, born in Portugal, etc.

But since he published and was known to the world as Jean Alphonse de Saintonge, there needs to be an author page that connects to the page under the João Afonso name.

He is also referred to in Canadian scholarly references as Jean Fonteneau, and another redirect page needs to be from there to João Afonso. 70.20.33.200 (talk) 04:39, 30 December 2018 (UTC)

See WP:Common name. If you think you have a case, take the matter through a WP:Requested moves discussion. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:28, 30 December 2018 (UTC)