Talk:Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty

Defeat for the Soviets?

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I am surprised the article describes the INF treaty as the first major defeat for Soviet diplomacy. Could one not argue to the contrary, that it was a major victory for Soviet diplomacy, in the sense of engaging the Reagan administration, dramatically improving Soviet-US relations, bringing the end to the Cold War?Radchenk (talk) 09:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

I agree Radchenk. I think that the line was vandalism, because I can't imagine the Soviets agreeing to something that they didn't largely benefit from. Happyme22 (talk) 18:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)Reply
Can you name the benefit then? Even Western sources (such as Global Double Zero by Rueckert, 1993) calls it an asymmetrical agreement. It is difficult to justify calling the side forced onto the bad side of an asymetrical agreement anything but "defeated". --Kazuaki Shimazaki (talk) 09:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)Reply

Prompt Naval Strike

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http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6816900&c=AME&s=AIR

Seems to be a single source that the treaty bans sea-based IRBMs, in spite of sea-based cruise missiles continued deployment and USN studies of sub-based IRBMs. Should I use it? Hcobb (talk) 02:22, 16 June 2011 (UTC)Reply

I'm a bit dubious about this one, something seems to be missing in either the article, how the people are being quoted, or whether they are even "correct" at all. James Acton is quoted as saying the naval deployed hypersonic system would violate the INF treaty, but then stipulates that the INF prohibits "intermediate-range ballistic missiles". As the article earlier points out, one of the major reasons for using the hypersonic delivery system is that it is a distinctly not ballistic profile. INF certainly applies to non-ballistic weapons, but mostly those that are land based. That's why we got rid of our ground launched cruise missiles back in the day. Neither we nor the Soviets made any great change or retirement of a naval system as a result of the treaty. I think putting it in here might constitute undue weight, promoting a single possibly misquoted or out of context statement flying in the face of, well, the treaty text itself among things. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 02:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
Okay, what's the treaty text on naval issues? I've searched through the materials and found ZERO naval keywords in them. Hcobb (talk) 02:14, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
Right, because it isn't a treaty about naval issues. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 02:51, 17 June 2011 (UTC)Reply
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So I didn't see the reference

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no need to be that nasty. Sammartinlai (talk) 06:19, 21 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

@Sammartinlai: I was going to respond on your talk page for the ridiculous comment [1] but better you respond here because I have feeling you would delete if i post on your talk page. No i was not "nasty" you are oversensitive and non factual and unreasonable about this. You are being picky you can see there was entire section with many cites for the termination decision. Very short and easy reading too. If you wanted you could easy just add citation there no need for a tag and provoke without reason. But no you decide you provoke even more by going on my talk page, going here, everywhere. I don't even know what you are trying to prove with this. It is non issue. Litearally Waskerton (talk) 06:52, 21 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

It is you who could be kinder. You delete your talk page I at least archive mine. I did not provoke. Sammartinlai (talk) 06:56, 21 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
@Sammartinlai: no do not try to vicgim blame. you start this stupid exchange with the tag when you can easy could have not done that. you do not respond to anything i say except for you should be kinder. why you did not just add the citation yourself? I think you are just doing this for sake of just arguing. please stop this it is helping no one. Waskerton (talk) 07:58, 21 October 2018 (UTC)Reply
I have no answer to your terrible spelling. End of story.
@Sammartinlai: English not my first language but do not get smart like this I bet you cannot speak my native language. Or should i say no needs for you to be nasty. yes end of story now goodbye and do not talk anymore. Waskerton (talk) 08:36, 21 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

What's the relevance of this See Also

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See also

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  • A Walk in the Woods – a 1988 play based on Paul Nitze and Yuli Kvitsinsky's "walk in the woods"

How does it relate to the INF?

Sammartinlai (talk) 08:41, 21 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

I think the statement on a Congressional vote just needed more to it

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If you want to terminate my edits, feel free so long as you terminate that edit too.2601:447:4101:41F9:88C6:AAC6:5C4E:A9FC (talk) 14:55, 21 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

presidential power to withdraw

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The end of that section claims that "However, the scope of the US president's ability to withdraw from Senate-approved treaties without Congressional approval has been called into question.", however, both references concluded that the president indeed has that power. So should this claim be labled "reference needed"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Palpatineli (talkcontribs) 20:54, 23 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for your comment. I checked and you're right. Neither support the view that it's an open question. One is also from 2017 so including it in relation to this withdrawal is OR. So I've just removed that bit. [2] If anyone wants to add it back, other than finding sources which actually support the claim it was called into question, add it to the article and then decide if it belongs in the lead as well. Nil Einne (talk) 13:35, 4 December 2018 (UTC)Reply

Russian ICBMs a violation of the INF?

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"In 2013, reports came out that Russia had tested and planned to continue testing two missiles in ways that could violate the terms of the treaty: the SS-25 road mobile intercontinental ballistic missile and the newer RS-26 ICBM"--why would ICBMs (which are not intermediate range missiles) be of a violation of the INF?

Sammartinlai (talk) 11:51, 26 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Vote on the INF in the UN

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All unsourced

In favour (31) Abstaining (54) Against (55)
  Angola
  Armenia
  Belarus
  Bolivia
  China
  Cuba
  Democratic Republic of the Congo
  Ecuador
  El Salvador
  Guyana
  Iran
  Jamaica
  Kazakhstan
  Kyrgyzstan
  Laos
  Mongolia
  Myanmar
  Namibia
  Nicaragua
  Nigeria
  North Korea
  Russia
  Serbia
  South Sudan
  Sudan
  Suriname
  Syria
  Tajikistan
  Uganda
  Venezuela
  Zimbabwe
  Algeria
  Antigua and Barbuda
  Bahamas
  Bahrain
  Bangladesh
  Belize
  Bhutan
  Botswana
  Brazil
  Brunei
  Cambodia
  Chile
  Colombia
  Costa Rica
  Dominican Republic
  Egypt
  Equatorial Guinea
  Guatemala
  Ghana
  Honduras
  India
  Indonesia
  Iraq
  Ivory Coast
  Jordan
  Kenya
  Kuwait
  Lebanon
  Libya

  Malawi
  Malaysia
  Mali
  Mauritania
  Mexico
  Morocco
    Nepal
  Niger
  Oman
  Pakistan
  Panama
  Peru
  Philippines
  Qatar
  Saudi Arabia
  Singapore
  South Africa
  Sri Lanka
  Thailand
  Trinidad and Tobago
  United Arab Emirates
  Uruguay
  Vietnam
  Zambia

  Albania
  Andorra
  Argentina
  Australia
  Austria
  Belgium
  Bulgaria
  Canada
  Croatia
  Cyprus
  Czech Republic
  Denmark
  Estonia
  eSwatini
  Finland
  Georgia
  Germany
  Greece
  Haiti
  Hungary
  Iceland
  Ireland
  Israel
  Italy
  Japan
  Latvia
  Liechtenstein
  Lithuania
  Luxembourg
  Macedonia
  Malta
  Marshall Islands
  Moldova
  Monaco
  Montenegro
  Mozambique
  Netherlands
  New Zealand
  Norway
  Poland
  Portugal
  Romania
  Samoa
  San Marino
  Slovakia
  Slovenia
  South Korea
  Spain
  Sweden
   Switzerland
  Turkey
  Ukraine
  United Kingdom
  United States

Sammartinlai (talk) 07:01, 31 October 2018 (UTC)Reply

Per SecState Pompeo, US to withdraw tomorrow 2/2/19

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Just announced via the State Dept via CBS News, NBC, and other outlets.[1] Six month timeline post withdraw annoucement to full withdrawal 129.246.254.12 (talk) 13:47, 1 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

References

Content of the treaty?

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This article needs a section summarizing the contents of the treaty. I believe it forbids testing and production of the covered weapons, but our article doesn't mention this. Are missile defense systems covered? What are the provisions for leaving the treaty? AxelBoldt (talk) 16:05, 2 February 2019 (UTC)Reply


Alleged violations

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q =

[ Both countries allege the other has violated the treaty. The US accused Russia of violating treaty terms by testing the SSC-8 cruise missile in 2008.[1] The accusation was brought up again in 2014[2][3] and 2017.[1][4] In 2013, reports came out that Russia had tested and planned to continue testing two missiles in ways that could violate the terms of the treaty: the SS-25 road mobile intercontinental ballistic missile and the newer RS-26 ICBM, although neither missile is considered intermediate range.[5]

Russia argues that the American decision to establish bases (Mk-412 VLS cells) capable of launching Tomahawk missiles in Poland and Romania is a violation of the treaty.[6][7][8][9] Russia also states that the US prevalent usage of ballistic " target " test missiles and armed UAVs such as the MQ-9 Reaper and MQ-4 also violates the INF Treaty.[10]

Chinese and israeli BMs CMs (both sea air ground submarine launched) , ASAT ABM , HGV gliders MARV , hypersonic , UAVs UCAV , ASBM , other . Fifteen or more countries (like UK France Norway Sweden poland romania croatia South korea Japan Taiwan North korea brazil south africa China India Pakistan) have active systems . in development - research - testing or can produce those , which are in the INF ranges . ]

What do you suggest to change? My very best wishes (talk) 16:43, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply
I just corrected summary for this source. It tells: "Начальник российского Генштаба генерал армии Юрий Балуевский заявил, что Москва может в одностороннем порядке выйти из советско-американского Договора о ликвидации ракет средней и меньшей дальности " (bold letters/summary in the beginning of the article). My very best wishes (talk) 16:57, 4 February 2019 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ a b Gordon, Michael R. (14 February 2017). "Russia Deploys Missile, Violating Treaty and Challenging Trump". The New York Times. Retrieved 12 February 2018.
  2. ^ Marcus, Jonathan (30 January 2014). "US briefs Nato on Russian 'nuclear treaty breach'". BBC News. Retrieved 31 January 2014.
  3. ^ Luhn, Alec; Borger, Julian (29 July 2014). "Moscow may walk out of nuclear treaty after US accusations of breach". The Guardian. Retrieved 29 July 2014.
  4. ^ Woolf, Amy F. (27 January 2017). "Russian Compliance with the Intermediate Range Nuclear Forces (INF) Treaty: Background and Issues for Congress". Congressional Research Service (7–5700).
  5. ^ Rogin, Josh (7 December 2013). "US Reluctant to Disclose to All NATO Allies that Russia is Violating INF Treaty". The Atlantic Council. Retrieved 7 December 2013.
  6. ^ ERÄSTÖ, TYTTI. "Leave nuclear Tomahawks where they belong — in the '80s". Thehill. Thehill.
  7. ^ Kennedy, Kristian. "Destabilizing Missile Politics Return to Europe, Part II: For Russia, Pershing II Redux?". NAOC.
  8. ^ Gotev, Georgi. "Moscow: US comments on possible destruction of Russian warheads are dangerous". euractiv. euractiv.
  9. ^ Kramer, Andrew E. "Russia Calls New U.S. Missile Defense System a 'Direct Threat'". NYT. NYT.
  10. ^ Adomanis, Mark (31 July 2014). "Russian Nuclear Treaty Violation: The Basics". U.S. Naval Institute. Retrieved 31 July 2014.

Revert

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There was nothing wrong (aside from advancing a view that an editor doesn't like) with the material that was removed and I have reverted the revert accordingly. Discuss this issue here first before making any further changes on the main article. Flaughtin (talk) 22:50, 7 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

I was born in 1946 and during my life especially in grade school high school we are always concerned about a nuclear holocaust and I was so relieved when when Russia and the United States really worked hard to get rid of that fear of the nuclear weapons and destruction of the world. My god if these major powers are going to re-introduce nuclear weapons as a deterrent then my grandchildren will have to live with the same fear we had to live with back in the 50s in the 60s. It would appear it that humankind are really hell-bent on destroying our planet Rick Fienhage (talk) 05:37, 10 August 2019 (UTC)Reply

Section moved over from Russian submarine Belgorod (K-329)

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The Russian Ministry of Defence classifies the Belgorod and Khabarovsk classes of nuclear submarines as fifth generation.[1][2] The main difference from the current fourth generation is that the future submarines will be able to operate unmanned underwater vehicles.

The K-329 submarine and the Status-6 Poseidon drone are jointly part of the new weapons systems designed by Russia to respond - among other things - to the United States's new nuclear capabilities, in the context of the abandonment of the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty between these two countries. Buckshot06 (talk) 09:17, 4 July 2021 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ http://morvesti.ru/news/1679/82738/
  2. ^ https: //flotprom.ru/2020/Оск17/

Wiki Education assignment: Cold War Science

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  This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 6 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Yamguy1935 (article contribs).