Talk:Hessian fabric

Untitled

hi yo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.25.97 (talk) 20:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed unnecessarily vulgar "burlap vagina" blurb. It doesn't appear as a real term on Google. TotoBaggins — Preceding undated comment added 01:20, 9 October 2005

Clarification about Jute, Burlap/Hessian, and Sackcloth

Jute is the most dominating bast fiber in the world. Therefore, most burlap/hessian/gunny & sackcloth can be found to be made of Jute. But, burlap & sackcloth can be made of other bast fibers also, like Hemp, Kenaf, flax etc.

Sackcloth is the material to make sackings or the cloth derived from sacks. Burlap/hessian/gunny (Fabric of Jute or Bast Fiber) is made for other purposes also. e.g. Shadecloth or Canvas/Tarpaulin, Nursery Blind, Trims (Webbing), etc. Therefore, Sackcloth is a type of Burlap and all sackcloths are burlap, but all burlap are not sackcloth.

- Asif Anwar — Preceding undated comment added 01:20, 9 October 2005

I have modified redirections for sackcloth (or sack cloth) to Cilice. When most people search the term, they are looking for the Bible-related meaning. --Algorithme (talk) 14:07, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

keep burlap as separate page

I would not have known to search for sack cloth as that is not a term known in Canada! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.206.19.129 (talk • contribs) 05:18, 8 September 2006

I've heard of a "burlap sack" but I can't say the term sackcloth would bring me to think of Burlap, though that may be to lack of education - leaving it separate would allow us "uneducated" people to find the topic easier. -K. LeDrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.251.59.204 (talk • contribs) 13:26, 16 September 2006

"with which to lash Mardi Gras participants"

Wha'? Can we have a source for that please?!? 86.132.139.224 03:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Serious edit?

This page is pretty awful in its quality. It almost feels like an Everything2 entry. Specifics: The "Other" category should probably be deleted as it doesn't really add much. Quoting random things that also are called "burlap" isn't very informative without further exposition. And the individual sentences at the top are disjoint and unorganized. I understand that the article is a stub, but it's a very low quality stub. SeanAhern 11:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

-- So why not do some work on it? Everybody does a little bit; that's how this wiki thing functions.kscally 11:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

naming

If Hessian is the more common name (The article states this and cites a reference) why is the page called Burlap? Burlap isn't in concise dictionaries in the UK and i've only ever seen it used by William Faulkner so I assume its an Americanism.The article currently at Hessian isn't about Hessian in any correct English sence.(Morcus (talk) 14:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC))

I'd like to propose moving this article to Hessian (fabric) for the reasons given above. The first line of the article cites a reference to the fact that Hessian is the more common name and that Burlap is an Americanism. Please Discuss.(Morcus (talk) 01:31, 23 August 2008 (UTC))

The best part of a week having passed without any reply I've been bold and moved it, I've also swapped Burlap and Hessian around in a couple of places.(Morcus (talk) 00:45, 29 August 2008 (UTC))

The more common name would be burlap, because it's an Americanism. American population > UK population. —ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ) 20:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Indian population > American population, what what is it called there? BP OMowe (talk) 22:55, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

In Australia & New Zealand it is known as Hessian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.102.105 (talk) 09:55, 22 July 2017 (UTC)

History

The historical background seems a bit suspect and anachronistic. The great age of the Hessian conscript mercenary was in the 18th century, so that seems a more likely time for the term to evolve than the 19th, when allegedly jute exports started. It's likely

either Hessian in the earlier period was not jute-based,

or the date for first exports is wrong,

or both.

Isn't it more likely that the British and French colonists started sending back jute in the 18th century or even earlier? It seems odd they fought over Bengal so hard unless they were exploiting its resources.Sjwells53 (talk) 10:28, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Besides, hessian is not a very suitable fabric for clothing. Except if you're a Roman Catholic, but Hesse was perhaps the first part of Germany that Reformed. However, it may be that burlap was used by the mercs if nothing else was available, e.g. by the Convention Army when they had no other supplies.

The original fibre was probably flax. The German term is Sackleinen, essentially meaning "duffel-bag linen". Dysmorodrepanis (talk) 17:00, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

Seems doubtful that this fabric was used for actual soldiers' uniforms. Probably a [folk etymology]. Kortoso (talk) 17:05, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

And this seems a little ethno-centric: "from India..." to where? And what about India? What do they call it? What do they use it for? Kortoso (talk) 17:08, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Adding this comment from https://blog.eufabrics.com/related-fabrics/origin-hessian-fabrics-uses/ "The origins of Hessian lie in India during the 1600s, when jute was recognised for its strength as a fibre and was used for rope and paper as well as small amounts of fabric. " — Preceding unsigned comment added by Carol M. (talk • contribs) 19:05, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

According to the OED the earliest use of the word Hessian relating to jute cloth is the 1880s. Thus claims about soldiers' clothing 100 years earlier are almost certainly nothing more than folk etymology. Given that a large scale jute industry only began in India the 1850s this makes it even less likely that Hessian soldiers were wearing clothes of such material in the 18th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.176.67 (talk) 15:03, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Italian "burla"

burlap has burla in it which means joke or something funny considering burlap sack races, dresses, or slapstick — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.241.144.43 (talk • contribs) 05:00, 26 November 2014

Requested move 10 June 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Jenks24 (talk) 17:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

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Hessian fabric → Burlap – If this is the more common term in the USA and Canada, then it is almost certainly the most common English term. ngram —Srnec (talk) 15:39, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:TITLEVAR and WP:TITLECHANGES – WP:AT specifies that article titles should not be changed from one English dialect to another. The stable title should remain, per WP:TITLECHANGES. RGloucester — ☎ 16:03, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Unless it happened a while ago, right? The page history is convoluted here—there was a Burlap article a few times before there was a Hessian one, though the former was vandalism. So I think you're correct here, but I wonder why you came to the opposite conclusion on a similar discussion. If Srnec had made this move unilaterally and someone tried to reverse it in an RM years from now, would you oppose? --BDD (talk) 20:26, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

No, I would oppose if the title had remained stable in the years between his bold move and the new RM. Such stability implies that no one objected to the change, attaining a consensus through stability. Per WP:TITLEVAR and WP:TITLECHANGES, there is no justification for changing a stable title merely to change the English variety. RGloucester — ☎ 21:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I wonder how long it takes before such a move becomes a fait accompli, before a title is stable. Interesting how your interpretations of these opposite cases both conclude that the British spelling is correct. --BDD (talk) 13:15, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Neither is "correct". The stable title should always remain, unless there are good reasons for a change other than the matter of the English dialect. Your assumptions about my motives are disgusting. I simply value stability, as does our article titles policy, and regardless of what dialect is used. RGloucester — ☎ 15:03, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the counterexample. I just want you to think what a subjective, slippery term "stable title" is. You're quite correct that our policies value stability. I simply think not tacitly approving moves against those policies is an important way to maintain stability. --BDD (talk) 15:49, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The earliest revision I can find is Hessian cloth (21 June 2004). There was a Burlap article deleted for copyvio in May 2005 - is there an earlier revision there? Peter James (talk) 23:01, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Exactly. Even if "RETAIN" did apply, which it does not, as I've already explained elsewhere, this article started at the "Hessian" variant. RGloucester — ☎ 16:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Support I guess per WP:ENGVAR and WP:RETAIN Red Slash 23:40, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support per Red Slash -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 05:04, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
  • per Mabalu, it should be burlap -- 70.51.202.183 (talk) 04:58, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
• Comment A little confused about whether the above support votes are actually pro-change or not, particularly using the "retain" argument. Although I think the article should properly be "Hessian (fabric)," it does appear to be stable and solid under this name, and burlap does exist as a redirect - so I guess I oppose the move. In fact, looking at the history, for some reason this was moved from Hessian (cloth) to the current page, which just seems odd. Mabalu (talk) 13:50, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
• "More common" and ngram arguments should not be entertained. This is a textbook ENGVAR case. Not currently sure which that favor, but WP:ENGVAR and WP:RETAIN should apply, unless there is a very good reason otherwise. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:02, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Neither "ENGVAR" or "RETAIN" reply to article titles, as they are mere MoS prose guidelines. The relevant part of our article titles policy is WP:TITLEVAR. RGloucester — ☎ 14:53, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense. The variation of English used in the title needs to be the same as in the text. Much of the MoS is mere guideline over-interpreted, but not ENGVAR. RETAIN has clear applicability to titling. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:10, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but WP:TITLEVAR is the relevant policy, and it is very clear on this matter. It says "American English spelling should not be respelled to British English spelling, and vice versa; for example, both color and colour are acceptable and both spellings are found in article titles (such as color gel and colour state". There should be no respelling of any kind, merely to change the variety. ENGVAR is irrelevant to article titles. The policy on the matter is WP:TITLEVAR. RGloucester — ☎ 01:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Sometimes policy is not perfect, but the principle is clear. Perhaps this policy needs completion. Burlap and hessian mean the same thing but come from different English speaking places. American and British spellings are just the most frequently encountered issues that the community agreed should not be fought over pathetically, with the solution, of sticking with the first used version, applying to all such problems. If there is to be any gaming of that solution, it is to write new articles quickly, and that is a good thing. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:14, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Use for clothing

I added to the claim that farmers during the Great Depression sewed their burlap sacks into clothes. The use of flour sacks as material for clothing in the early to mid-20th century is well documented, but those sacks were of printed cotton, not burlap. I haven't done an exhaustive search, but a few minutes of Googling hasn't turned up credible evidence for burlap-sack clothing having been common during the Depression. 206.208.105.129 (talk) 18:43, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Crocus?

Could it be from the ancient Greek name for jute? [1] Kortoso (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Only jute?

The article goes on an on about hessian / burlap being made of jute. But in reality is can be made of jute, it can be made of hemp, it can be made of a mixture of hemp and jute, and it can even be made of flax. If the meaning "coarse fabric used for sacks made of jute" is some sort of technical jargon used in the textile industry, the article should say so; because in normal speech burlap / hessian is just coarse fabric used for sacks, regardless of what it is made of. Imerologul Valah (talk) 22:49, 14 February 2022 (UTC)