Talk:Hazaras

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 December 2023

I would like to add Pakistani Hazara jurist Qazi Faez Isa to the article. 203.171.100.57 (talk) 17:01, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Mattdaviesfsic (talk) 17:05, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Population

@HistoryofIran: If the source I added is not WP:RS, then the previous source [1] is still not WP:RS. It was previously removed because it was not WP:RS. Thank you! Jadidjw (talk) 16:06, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Just because x is unreliable doesn't mean that y also is. However, since the consensus was that Minahan is not WP:RS, I removed it and thus its numbers too. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:11, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! Jadidjw (talk) 16:22, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Reverting reasons

@HistoryofIran: Hi, I don't know why you reverted my edit as I explained it. There is a tribe called Moghols, who are descendants of the Mongol Empire's soldiers led by Genghis Khan in Afghanistan. And what I removed was inaccurate information that did not pertain to the Hazara people. Jadidjw (talk) 18:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I still don't understand. Are you trying to refute scholars by stating your own deduction? Or are you stating that the sources don't even mention the Hazara? The former is obviously not acceptable. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:55, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

As I said in the editing summary, Moghols are not Hazaras, this is a clear truth. First: the information that I removed was said based on the Afghan Moghols about the Hazara people. Second: that content doesn't help much for the Wikipedia article, it's better not to have it. Jadidjw (talk) 19:29, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

So the former then. That is not acceptable, Wiki is based on WP:RS, not our personal opinions. Please dont do this again. Ill later do a check and see if you removed more sourced info in this article in the past. It looks like you have resumed your past edits of removing sources info about the Mongol aspect of the Hazaras, which will not be further tolerated. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Dear HistoryofIran: Wikipedia should be based on facts, information that is unlikely to be true should not be found here. Jadidjw (talk) 20:36, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, and it's currently based on facts. It would likely not be based on facts if we added your opinion. Why? Because Wikipedia is based on WP:RS, not your personal opinion. You've been around since 2021, you should know this. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:57, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

For those interested, I've taken this to WP:ANI [2]. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:30, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Transliteration

@Jadidjw can you show where "Həzārə" was "agreed upon"? I can't find anything on the talk page(s) and there's nothing in the edit log to suggest there was a consensus. NorthTension (talk) 23:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi! It "Həzārə" was a minor edit that doesn't need to be discussed, you can make changes to it if you wish. Jadidjw (talk) 23:20, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oh my bad, I didn't look at the edit log correctly, sorry about that! NorthTension (talk) 23:48, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Hazaras

Hazaras are not native to Pakistan and Iran. They are merely inhabitants of said countries.

They are native to the Hazarajat region. 2A02:A44B:A664:0:ADE4:47E4:8AE9:B2C6 (talk) 21:19, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 April 2024

I would like to restore some recently deleted reliable sourced information. Bravehm (talk) 18:24, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Jamedeus (talk) 18:31, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 April 2024 (2)

A user named KoizumiBS has recently removed several reliable sourced content supported from Encyclopaedia of Islam and Encyclopædia Iranica, and made inappropriate changes in the article. See [3] I hereby request to participate in the editing of the article and edit and restore those authentic sourced materials. Bravehm (talk) 20:52, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

Actually, KoizumiBS restored sourced information that was removed by the now indeffed user Jadidjw who kept attempting to remove the Mongol aspect of the Hazara, and who also made incorrect claims like you. You wouldn't happen to know Jadidjw? --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:34, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

There is reason to believe that Bravehm is a sockpuppet of the blocked Iampharzad and Jadidjw. See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iampharzad KoizumiBS (talk) 23:25, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

The current changes in the article are biased and tasteful by one person. They edit the article according to their will, not from all aspects, they changed the correct and stable contents under the pretext of reverting some information. Bravehm (talk) 23:39, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

You misleadingly claimed that KoizumiBS removed sourced information, when they literally did the opposite. And yet you're calling KoizumiBS biased and distasteful? That is rich. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:44, 18 April 2024 (UTC)

So what is the reason for changing the article information and this type editing of KoizumiBS[4]. See all KoizumiBS contributions, they are only for one purpose in Wikipedia [5] Bravehm (talk) 00:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

This sounds like WP:JDLI. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:09, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Don't get it wrong. Any subversive editing should not be liked. Bravehm (talk) 00:31, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

You're still yet to explain why its "subversive", and as long as you haven't done that, this is WP:ASPERSIONS. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:33, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Under the guise of restored sourced info, KoizumiBS has changed sourced info that previously had nothing wrong with it, and this is a subversive edit. Bravehm (talk) 00:51, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Not good enough, this is quite vague. Please come with examples. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:53, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

For example, KoizumiBS changed sourced info from Encyclopaedia of Islam "The Hazara people speak the Hazaragi dialect of Persian, which is infused with many Turkic and a few Mongolic words." to "According to Britannica, The Hazara speak an eastern variety of Persian called Hazaragi with many Mongolian and Turkic words."

Changed sourced info from Encyclopaedia Iranica "In the 16th-century, some Hazaras spoke a Mongolian language." to "According to a number of sources, in the 16th century the Mongolian language was widespread among the Hazaras."

Others see for yourself.[6] Bravehm (talk) 01:10, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

This is poor, the two examples you came up with are more and less the same before and after, KoizumiBS literally just restored the information removed by Jadidjw. So much for the "subversive edit". I'm outta here. HistoryofIran (talk) 01:27, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

I have left the others for you to check because there are too many of them and it would be difficult to describe them here. Bravehm (talk) 01:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Not how it works. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:15, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Reach consensus

@HistoryofIran: It was a restoretion of the previous sourced edit where the User:KoizumiBS made inappropriate changes. User:KoizumiBS has mentioned about Sultan Masaudi Hazaras in the "Etymology" section, which is not appropriate there. Bravehm (talk) 23:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

You didn't think it fit the Etymology section.. so you removed it completely instead of moving it to another section (eg History section)? There's something you're not telling. Is this WP:JDLI like the thread above? HistoryofIran (talk) 00:25, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

The content about Hazaras of Sultan Masaudi Hazaras and Kedi Hazaras ware removed because they not quite appropriate in the Etymology section. Bravehm (talk) 01:48, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

You've already mentioned that part. But why not move it somewhere else instead of completely removing it? HistoryofIran (talk) 02:06, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

To be honest, I don’t understand why these groups are mentioned in the Etymology section. I think they should be moved to the History section. "Turkoman Hazaras" is only the name of one of the tribes, and not the equivalent of an ethnonym "Hazaras". KoizumiBS (talk) 07:51, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, though for some reason Bravehm keeps removing it instead, they just did again, I think there is an ulterior motive here. I'm getting deja vu from my experience with Iampharzad and co. HistoryofIran (talk) 11:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done moved somewhere else. Bravehm (talk) 12:09, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

I am not the person you make me out to be. Bravehm (talk) 12:13, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

"Turkoman Hazaras" are a tribe against which Babur launched a military campaign. The ethnonym "Turkoman" isn't a name for all Hazaras. See "First Campaign against Turkoman Hazaras" and "Turkmun (Hazara tribe)". KoizumiBS (talk) 01:00, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Read the WP:OR, WP:PSTS, WP:PRIMARY rules: "Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself".--KoizumiBS (talk) 01:12, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't matter one or more Hazara tribes, it is about Hazara's ethnic roots, and this is in the "Origin" part of the article. When it is like this about the Mongols, then you attribute one tribe on all Hazaras. Several information that you included in the article, it was only about one or a group of Hazaras, but you attributed it to all Hazaras. Bravehm (talk) 05:53, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

You have included several information about the Mongolian aspect of the Hazaras in the article, They are basically about one tribe or a group related to the Hazaras, but you attributed it to all Hazaras.

For example you have given a Russian source which is only about one group of them, like: "еще в XVI веке говорили хазарейцы по-монгольски в северной части Афганистана" (In the 16th century, the Hazaras in northern Afghanistan spoke Mongolian) But you attributed it to all the Hazaras and its numerous tribes. Bravehm (talk) 06:22, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

I include the information about one group of Hazaras in the article, and the information you added, which is only about one group, should be corrected. Bravehm (talk) 06:31, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Everything I added was taken from reliable sources. I didn’t write my personal thoughts here. KoizumiBS (talk) 07:57, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for rewriting and correcting the info.

My goal is that in the genetic studies of an ethnic group, all aspects of its descent should be studied. Since the Hazaras are made up of three racial groups of Iranian, Turkic and Mongols, all three aspects should be studied, not just the Mongol aspects, or Turkic aspects, or Iranian aspects. Bravehm (talk) 11:19, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Please refrain from altering/removing sourced information [7] without any WP:CONSENSUS. To others reading this, this is what Bravehm altered; "According to Doctor of Sciences Lutfi Temirkhanov, the ancestors of the Hazaras were Mongol-speaking" -> "According to Doctor of Sciences Lutfi Temirkhanov, the ancestors of some Hazaras were Mongol-speaking." And they removed this; "According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words." HistoryofIran (talk) 12:43, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Because the info is not even in the source, Timur Khanov cited Babur notes, for example, while Babur did not said all Hazaras speak Mongolian, but some of them. I added the word some for this reason. Bravehm (talk) 13:36, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

The removal under the edit summary (Unresearched and repeated) was about the existence of words from other languages in Hazaragi and there were four contents about it, removal was only one of them, because it was repetitive, incomplete and only mentioned about the Mongolian language, while there are many Turkic words are available in Hazaragi. It is better to highlight the non-Mongolic aspects of the Hazaras too. Bravehm (talk) 14:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Because the info is not even in the source

The next time you make a dishonest claim or any sort of disruption, you and your SPI case will be taken to ANI. What the two citations say (Google translate);

• "the Mongol troops left in Afghanistan by Genghis Khan or his successors became the initial layer, the basis of the Hazara ethnogenesis."
• "The participation of the Mongols in the ethnogenesis of the Hazaras is evidenced by linguistic data... also historical sources (for example, “Notes of Babur”) and toponymic data"

while there are many Turkic words are available in Hazaragi. It is better to highlight the non-Mongolic aspects of the Hazaras too.

Then add (sourced) info about their non-Mongol aspect instead of removing sourced info about their Mongol aspect..? HistoryofIran (talk) 15:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

So why did Babur state in Baburnama that some Hazaras speak Mongolian. (i.e. not all Hazaras) This cannot be a lie in any way and no one believes that all Hazaras spoke Mongolian. And it is still not believable that some 1000-man corps from in about 800 years ago are the ancestors of all Hazaras, and unlikely that the 8 or 10 million Hazara population was formed from that 1000-man corps in about 800 years ago. Bravehm (talk) 16:20, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS, WP:PST, WP:CITE and WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

@KoizumiBS: One request

This article contains info about the percentage of Mongolian and Turkic words. The info you added is only about the percentage of Mongolian words in the Hazara language, not others... It means that the information is not complete.

So the previous is better, (The Turkic and Mongolic words make up about 20% of the vocabulary of Hazaragi dialect.) because it is about the percentage of both language's words.

With Thanks! Bravehm (talk) 16:46, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

More dishonesty and pov pushing to remove the Mongol aspects of the Hazara by Bravehm [8] [9]. Despite the source [10] literally saying "Overall, our findings suggest that Hazaras have experienced genetic admixture with the local or neighboring populations and formed the current East-West Eurasian admixed genetic profile after their separation from the Mongolians." @Bravehm: I hope you have a good explanation for this. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

That is because the information is outside of genetic studies. Bravehm (talk) 12:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

What? HistoryofIran (talk) 12:43, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

You've edited your comment twice [11] [12] after I replied to it (which you shouldn't unless it's a grammar mistake, just make a new comment) and it still doesn't make sense. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:12, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

That info is not entirely true that the Hazaras only separated from the Mongols and have no other ancestors without them. Bravehm (talk) 13:20, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

It doesn't mean that their only ancestors were Mongols... and your personal opinion is still irrelevant, we follow WP:RS. I've had enough of you and your socks. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:30, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

• Again, it is not related to genetic studies.
• "www.fsigenetics.com" is not WP:RS.
• You can't accuse me of having sock accounts when I don't.

Bravehm (talk) 15:46, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Keep making disruptive edits to decrease the Mongol aspect of the Hazara [13], they will eventually get reverted after your block, just like Iampharzad and co. If the SPI turns out inconclusive for whatever reason, I'll be taking those diffs to WP:ANI. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:35, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I improved the article, not made any disruptive edits.

Why and for what reason do I get blocked when there is no reason? I don't really know (Iampharzad) and this is my only account. Bravehm (talk) 16:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Another attempt at decreasing the Mongol aspect of the Hazara [14]. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:32, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

My editing is to improve the article, not anything else and that editing of mine, has nothing to do with what you say. You only repeat the same words (Mongol aspect) for many times and trying to deprive me of the right to edit. Before reverting my edits pov pushingly,[15] note what the facts are and what are edited to improve the article.

As a Wikipedia user, as you have the right to edit, I also have. Bravehm (talk) 18:08, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

You have a right indeed, but disruption is still not allowed, which you have resorted to once more [16] Ill repeat it for the third time: those are not Baburs words about the Mongol invasion bit, open the source and see for yourself. HistoryofIran (talk) 18:16, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the translator has said, so the information and its source are not reliable and accurate. Bravehm (talk) 18:37, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

According to whom? HistoryofIran (talk) 19:35, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Not reliable because the author Babur does not say that, but the translator is mentioned at the bottom of the page. The translator's job is just the translation of the book. Bravehm (talk) 19:57, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Thats not how WP:RS works. Once again you removed info about the Mongol aspect. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:11, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The translator said those words without citing any sources.

The info about Mongol aspect should not be removed if it is true. That information that is not reliable whether Mongolian, Turkic or Iranian, must be corrected or removed. Bravehm (talk) 20:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you make up your mind? First because theyre “simply the translators”, and now because they “didnt cite any source”..? You dont know how WP:RS works, and youre clearly removing to reduce thr Mongol aspect. Not worth waiting for the SPI, straight to ANI it is. HistoryofIran (talk) 20:46, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The description of a translator at the bottom of the page cannot be the same as the author. Bravehm (talk) 21:01, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Please look at the contents of the article most of the info are about the Mongol aspects, especially the language of the Hazara people, which is not really fair and correct, while Hazaras are of Iranic, Turkic and Mongolic ethnicity. This must be equivalent, and there should also be more info about the other aspects of the Hazaras, not only about Mongol aspect. Bravehm (talk) 20:50, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

HistoryofIran

@HistoryofIran: I would like to discuss the deletion of this sentence (after their separation from the Mongolians) This sentence is included in the genetics section of the article while this could be in the history section of the article. Hazaras are said to be of mixed Turkic, Mongolic and Iranic races, but the source from this site "pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov", is not compactly correct, It has some fault info and is also not WP:RS. The ethnic origin of the Hazaras should not be attributed only to the Mongols, while the Hazaras lived in HazaraJat before the invasion of Genghis, and this is deeply proved by the idols of Bamiyan, which are exactly look like Hazaras. The current info (after their separation from the Mongolians) is misleading and should be corrected. Bravehm (talk) 20:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I have turned off notifications by you, and you will be blocked soon Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Bravehm HistoryofIran (talk) 21:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

You already told me to discuss the article for consensus on the discussion page, while I am doing the same.

Why should I be blocked? My edits are in good faith and strictly in accordance with Wikipedia's rules. You even reverted my first edit on the Hazaras article why does this only happen to me, not to others. Bravehm (talk) 21:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 May 2024

Etymology The Hazara people, historically rooted in Afghanistan, exhibit a diverse cultural tapestry, encompassing various ethnic backgrounds. Within their community, distinctions are often drawn along geographical and ancestral lines.

In the northern Hazarajat region, tribes such as the "Daizangis" and "Baghalanis" are recognized for their Turko-Aryan heritage, blending elements of both Turkic and Aryan ancestry.

Moving to the eastern Hazarajat, the "Behsudis" trace their lineage to Mongolian tribes, reflecting the cultural influences from the eastern reaches of the region.

Conversely, in the southern and western Hazarajat areas, including communities such as the "Varazganis," "Sons of Muhammad Khwaja," and "Ghouris," a predominantly Turkic lineage prevails, with exceptions found among groups like the "Yezders," "Bayatis," and "Pashis."

Among these exceptions, the "Yezders" and "Bayatis" maintain ties to Aryan roots, while the "Pashis" exhibit characteristics associated with Mongoloid ancestry.

This nuanced mosaic of ethnic identities within the Hazara community speaks to the rich tapestry of cultural heritage and historical interactions that have shaped their identity over time. HazirKhan (talk) 05:33, 4 May 2024 (UTC)