Talk:Harrison Butker

Lead mention of his controversial comments

Opening up a discussion as to whether the lead should mention his controversial comments that have been widely covered in the media with numerous articles detailing his comments. Proposed wording for lead:

• " Butker, a traditional Catholic, made controversial comments stemming from his strong conservative beliefs in two commencement addresses in 2023 and 2024. His comments have been labeled as "misogynist", "bigoted", "homophobic", "transphobic" and "anti-semitic". In May 2024, the NFL released a statement condemning his remarks: "His views are not those of the NFL as an organization. The NFL is steadfast in our commitment to inclusion, which only makes our league stronger.""

The One I Left (talk) 03:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

No. Just because a comment generated some controversy does not mean it needs to go at the top of the page. It is well discussed below, in the proper section. TanRabbitry (talk) 21:04, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree with TanRabbitry (though not with their edits, which I reverted): this is way too much for the lead, and even a brief mention is too much right now. There is no rush; we need to get it right. Drmies (talk) 22:23, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies

I don't know why you reverted every single edit on the basis of a single reason. Regardless, the list states; "Rolling Stone is generally unreliable for politically and societally sensitive issues," and "Most editors say that Rolling Stone a partisan source in the field of politics." Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 03:31, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I think, TanRabbitry, that anyone who looks at the edit history will understand that you are mischaracterizing my edit. Also, RS is fine for culture, and it seems to me that "Rolling Stone's opinion pieces and reviews, as well as any contentious statements regarding living persons, should only be used with attribution" is met here: it is attributed. Drmies (talk) 16:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies If that is so, why did you only include one reason and yet reverse every change? And how is this not a political and "societally sensitive" issue? That's what culture is. TanRabbitry (talk) 17:34, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

You know what, maybe I should have said "rv disruptive edits by POV editor, whitewashing, removal of sourced content, insertion of positive appreciation by POV source ("The speech received a standing ovation from the graduating class and others in attendance"), excessive quotations by subject, unverified paragraphs, unexplained removal of relevant Swift-related content". This set of edits contains all that. Drmies (talk) 17:44, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the input Drmies, I respectfully disagree just due to the Reliable sources and mass media coverage, I think it's notable to have a brief mention In lead but we can wait. I do however have to correct TanRabbitry, It wasn't just "a comment" it was a series of highly controversial comments in two high profile speeches which went viral and gained tremendous backlash with even the NFL distancing themselves from his statements.The One I Left (talk) 12:53, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

No. The comments were only controversial from fringe viewpoints and those intentionally being obtuse to use Butker for their aims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.55.50 (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm sorry but that just doesn't track from the litany of reliably sources. It was Butker's viewpoints which were considered "controversial". I'm afraid you're inserting your bias here.The One I Left (talk) 13:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

IP you're being silly. Those cringeworthy comments rightfully attracted plenty of media attention. The One I Left, you can just disagree, it doesn't have to be respectfully--and I do think we should wait. Drmies (talk) 16:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies: I agree with the latter point. But to say that the comments were "cringeworthy" shows your own bias. I attempted to balance the article to the proper neutral view. You clearly already have an opinion and want it expressed. The opinion is fine, but the article should contain facts and statements of others. Besides, a point no one has raised is the lack of contrasting opinions (beyond those of the audience, which applauded in an ovation). Why don't we add some of those? Thank you, TanRabbitry (talk) 17:32, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

TanRabbitry, my "bias" is the least interesting of all topics of discussion. I don't think you were doing a very good job of balancing, especially not if you insert commentary about a bill that he may have referenced: stick to the topic. If someone wishes to insert this, very briefly, I suppose they can go ahead and do it. So no, "the audience" was not unequivocally jubilant, as you suggest. These nuns said, “Instead of promoting unity in our church, our nation, and the world, his comments seem to have fostered division. One of our concerns was the assertion that being a homemaker is the highest calling for a woman”. Did he assert that "being a homemaker is the highest calling for a woman"? Is that accurate? It's pretty funny that the nuns at the institution are calling him out for those comments. Drmies (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies

I did not add a "commentary." That is frankly almost libelous. That implies personal opinion on the subject. I find it strange that you dismissed your obvious bias out-of-hand, before accusing me of inserting my own view on the subject. I added context to the article to try to balance it. I offered no original conclusions, but simply stated what proponents and detractors had stated on the subject to provide background to the comment. You removed that due to your apparent distaste for the subject of the article (or at least his opinions).

On the other point, what does a later comment by a group connected to the school have to do with the reception of the audience?

TanRabbitry (talk) 18:09, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies

Additionally, he said "one of the most important," not "the most important." If a source twists someone else's words, it shouldn't be included without heavy clarification. To answer your question, it is not in fact, accurate. To drive home the point, he literally said that his success are dependent on his wife's accomplishments in her chosen path.

TanRabbitry (talk) 18:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Jewish comments inclusion

User:TanRabbitry keeps removing sourced content that is properly sourced and notable claiming it to be "defamatory". Not sure how. Please state your case here and gain a consensus before removing sourced material. He specifically condemned the "Anti-Semitism Awareness Act" and accused the first-century Jews for being responsible for the death of Jesus. There is sourced editorials commenting on his statements which is absolutely relevant. User:Drmies noted, "Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources has RS as an RS", The One I Left (talk) 12:48, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

Before I answer anything else you said, I explicitly stated that someone else had said it was defamatory and removed it. I said that was not why it should be removed, even if I agree that it should be. I will assume you made a mistake rather than are being intentionally misleading, but either way, please stick to the facts. Thank you,

TanRabbitry (talk) 13:00, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh was that not you? I apologize. What is your reasoning then?The One I Left (talk) 13:01, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

I accept your apology. TanRabbitry (talk) 13:03, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I do recommend not engaging in multiple EditWars and instead trying to gain consensus as to avoid confusion.The One I Left (talk) 13:05, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

Secondly, the entry for Rolling Stone says that; "Rolling Stone is generally unreliable for politically and societally sensitive issues," and adds "

TanRabbitry (talk) 13:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll wait for more commenters to add to this but my suggestion is that the content revolving around his jewish statements stay since he did say them, but remove RS sourcing if consensus is gained. I will add that |National Review and |The Nation also commented on the controverisal statements with the later alleging them to be anti-semitic comments. The One I Left (talk) 13:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

The more important point is that he didn't say anything notable or "out of line." The key line is "the church long has held that Jews could not be held collectively accountable." But he didn't say that the Jews are collectively responsible. That would be both wrong and notable. He didn't say or imply anything beyond a criticism some people had of the bill, in that some of its definitions could theoretically be construed to say that what is written in the New Testament is antisemitic. Others have disagreed with that assumption and said the bill wouldn't apply, but the wording is confusing and a rational person could have either perspective. Additionally, the reference I quoted is an opinion piece that doesn't even include his remarks on the subject. Its inclusion (especially without his actual words on the subject on the Wikipedia article itself) implies that he said something he did not. What he actually said is non-notable despite some (Rolling Stone) twisting his words. Thank you,

TanRabbitry (talk) 13:25, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

I haven't read the article you mention was written by them, but would add that while it is considered reliable factually, "they identify as progressive. Most editors consider The Nation a partisan source whose statements should be attributed." I also would add that all of these articles are heavily interpreting and assuming malice to his words when there is no indication there was any. I don't think it is proper for a side to be taken and mentioning it at all in that context assumes there was something wrong with his comment. Thank you,

TanRabbitry (talk) 13:35, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Not sure I follow what you're saying. The controversial line from his speech is: "We fear speaking truth, because now, unfortunately, truth is in the minority. Congress just passed a bill where stating something as basic as the biblical teaching of who killed Jesus could land you in jail". You could argue it was craftily worded enough that its open to interpretation however I still think his statements, reaction, and backlash was significantly covered by reliable sources and is worth noting especially since he did criticize the bill. So given that Rolling Stone, The Nation, National Review, and Kansas City Star among others commented on the story I'd say it's worthy of note. It seems you are letting your personal bias affect what could be considered noteworthy. I'm curious to see other people weigh in. The One I Left (talk) 13:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

Respectfully, to my mind saying "it was craftily worded enough that its open to interpretation," shows an assumption that what he said was malicious, which is itself biased. My point is this; to include his statement in an neutral way, you would have to include his quotation and clarify any accusatory condemnations by saying that they interpreted his statement one way, but he did not explicitly say that. Thank you,

TanRabbitry (talk) 14:52, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with that. I'm against removing the comments altogether. The One I Left (talk) 15:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

O.K. It just seemed like that wouldn't leave anything notable. I second the idea that others should weigh in. TanRabbitry (talk) 15:10, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Not sure what you deem notable. Statements perceived as anti-semitic and reporting from reliable sources are notable. Just so we're clear the part you want removed is soley the Rolling Stone material, correct? The One I Left (talk) 15:12, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Reminder User:TanRabbitry stop EditWarring and removing sourced content. Build your case here.The One I Left (talk) 16:05, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

I thought I had explained it clearly.

I know it wasn't you, but why was my addition removed? How is that different, if there is objection to me removing sourced materials? The additional context clearly shows the controversy surrounding the issue and adds background to a possibly confusing area.

TanRabbitry (talk) 17:27, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

Now why did you move that back? I included a rationale, both for why I think it needs to go, but more relevant to this, why it should succeed the other opinions. Moving it back without a reason seems a little petty. I could be wrong, but if so, why did you do it? Thank you,

TanRabbitry (talk) 17:38, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't remove the addition you made but I agree with User:Drmies it was overly wordy and unnecessary. You need to be able to gain consensus before removing large texts like the sourced material for the Kansas City Star.The One I Left (talk) 17:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

@The One I Left

In one comment, I said you didn't remove it. In the other, I asked you why you moved the line from where I had placed it, not why you removed it.

TanRabbitry (talk) 18:11, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

References

References

Addition of Opposing Reception

I think we need to add quotations from his supporters. The article says his statements were "controversial," but only includes one perspective. Here is a first draft of an addition:

Supporters also commented on the address. ESPN's Samantha Ponder TanRabbitry (talk) 19:04, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

O.K., I mistakenly added that before it was done. I'll finish it here.

Supporters also commented on the address. ESPN's Samantha Ponder said, "Personally I agreed with a few things he said… especially that most women are more excited/proud of their families than their day jobs. I love my job and have worked my butt off (and slept in my car) to get here, but it’s not even comparable to how I feel about being a mom! ESPN will not be with me on my deathbed. When did that become offensive?" The wife of the Kansas City Chiefs CEO Clark Hunt, Tavia Hunt said, "Affirming motherhood and praising your wife, as well as highlighting the sacrifice and dedication it takes to be a mother, is not bigoted. It is empowering to acknowledge that a woman’s hard work in raising children is not in vain.”

Two should be enough, right? There are two critical and two supportive opinions.

TanRabbitry (talk) 19:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Source for former quotation:

Source for latter quotation:

These aren't completely filled out. It wouldn't let me add them the normal way for some reason.

TanRabbitry (talk) 19:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC) TanRabbitry (talk) 19:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)