Talk:Gran Torino

Minor Plot Correction

I changed "and then quickly reaches into his jacket." to "and then slowly reaches into his jacket." because during the movie, he doesn't suddenly jerk his hand into his jacket for his lighter. I'm a projectionist at a movie theater and have watched the said part of the movie from the projection booth numerous times. Ggigabitem (talk) 10:16, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

I was about to disagree with you, because I just watched it, and remember his hand moving quickly. Upon further viewing I notice that his hand does goes slowly in, but he jerks it out very fast. The current versions states as such. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=waNhD1Z23M8 You can see it at the two minute mark. --69.180.37.163 (talk) 02:11, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Creation

I proceeded to create the item, because the film is currently in post-production, and the release film is for December, hello.--82.54.200.84 (talk) 19:53, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

Appreciate doing that! If you ever happen to come back to this talk page, let me know if you want to continue expanding the article. —Erik (talk • contrib) 15:23, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

Citations for use

• Louisa Schein (2008-10-03). "Eastwood's Next Film Features Hmong American Cast: Exclusive Interviews From the Set of 'Gran Torino'". AsianWeek. — Steve ^{T • C} 20:32, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
• Louisa Schein (2008-09-03). "Hmong Actors Making History: The Bad Guys Of Eastwood's Gran Torino". New America Media.
• Louisa Schein (2008-10-04). "Hmong Actors Making History Part 2: Meet the Gran Torino Family". New American Media. — Steve ^{T • C} 20:42, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

The sources should be acceptable; AsianWeek's About Us and New America Media's About Us both look valid. Definitely some great content to use! I'll try to implement when I can, if you don't beat me to it. :) —Erik (talk • contrib) 21:17, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Doing these now. Steve ^{T • C} 11:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Hah, you did these better than I would have done myself. Nice work. —Erik (talk • contrib) 12:29, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Have you got time to take a look at those last two cites? There's individual casting and background information for nine of the ten Hmong leads, but I left most of this out for now, as most of it is pretty standard stuff ("I got the call and..."). Though as not one of these actors has his or her own article, and some of the background information might be relevant, I'd like a second opinion. As an aside, I was toying with creating Bee Vang; what do you think, seeing as he's only been in this film so far? Steve ^{T • C} 12:41, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I haven't taken a close look at them, but I don't think that we need the additional cast information. I think it is best to try to minimize details like getting the call... the article already covers the fresh faces. (I sometimes have to wonder how authentic actors are about being comic book fans when making superhero films.) For Bee Vang's article, I don't really know... I've created very minimal bio articles, though more for navigational purposes (e.g., Laeta Kalogridis). If you make it pretty well-rounded and use three or more sources, you should be okay. I just don't know if there would be editors who think that there needs to be a specific "profile" article to write about someone. —Erik (talk • contrib) 13:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I think that "some" in "...with some criticizing its authenticity and fearing that the film will perpetuate stereotypes of Asian youths" is a little bit of a weasel word. Any ideas to revise? Perhaps "Members of the Hmong community"? —Erik (talk • contrib) 14:57, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Looking more closely at the two articles in which this is mentioned, it's pretty much sourced to "a blog" and two non-critical comments by a couple of the actors. I'm not sure this is even a big enough deal to keep in. Steve ^{T • C} 16:08, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

So do you want to remove the following sentence: "There has been debate over the film's depiction of Hmong gang culture, with some criticizing its authenticity and fearing that the film will perpetuate stereotypes of Asian youths"? Or revise it into something else? —Erik (talk • contrib) 14:44, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think the consideration to make is whether, on its own with no followup, the information would make it into the fully 'completed' version of this article, be that a year from now or whenever. The answer to that is no, IMO. On the other hand, if this does become an issue, with more prominent news organisations running with it, then we can pull this back out as supporting information for that. Steve ^{T • C} 18:05, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

• Patrick Goldstein (2008-11-26). "Rookie screenwriter finds the right mentor: Clint Eastwood". Los Angeles Times. Tribune Company. — brief talk with screenwriter; some good material. Steve ^{T • C} 21:01, 26 November 2008 (UTC)
• Peter Debruge (2008-12-15). "Clint Eastwood's imperfect world". Variety. Reed Business Information. — Steve ^{T • C} 11:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
• Maria Allard (2008-07-16). "Clint Eastwood films scene for new movie in Center Line". C&G News.

Ultimately most mainstream news articles didn't cover this, but instead it was from an academic journal and a few articles from some outlets. WhisperToMe (talk) 04:21, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Wide release date

Is this really the best citation we have for this film's wide release date? I've poked around a little but could not seem to find this release date outside of websites like these, which may very well copy each other. I think we could use a more reliable replacement. —Erik (talk • contrib) 14:43, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I didn't spot this the other day, sorry. Yes, I agree that the source is definitely questionable. I'm sure a better one will come along in good time; it's out in a couple of months after all. Steve ^{T • C} 00:02, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Second poster

To give a heads-up, the second poster is here. My preference is to keep the current one since it shows more. —Erik (talk • contrib) 15:39, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Script and Corrections

Warner Brothers put the script online for Oscar consideration. It is, by the way, outstanding. A few changes on the plot summary:
(1) The gang didn't make Tao work for Walt, his family did.
(2) Walt never lost his racist facade. In fact, it sticks to literally the last line of the movie.
Mosedschurte (talk) 11:39, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the addition! :) —Erik (talk • contrib) 14:22, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

Plot

CORRECT THE DAMN PAGE. IT LOoks like a shy ass pussy wrote it. And there are more words than 'gangbangers', like gangsters or gang members. GOD! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.226.164.193 (talk • contribs) 14:37, December 17, 2008

I reverted to a shorter revision of the "Plot" section since what was added was way too long. We're not supposed to have such an extensive description of a copyrighted work. —Erik (talk • contrib) 18:43, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Way, WAY Too long. This needs to be either cut down or simply use that short premise version from earlier. This is the ENTIRE plot. I think if no one has pruned it down to 3 or 4 short sentences by the end of the week, put the premise version back up until someone volunteers a proper-length one. RoyBatty42 (talk) 09:58, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I agreed...and it was changed...The previous looked like it was written by a 10 year old. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.160.34.105 (talk) 16:25, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

I revised the plot again and removed things like observations regarding the moral or themes - unless a reference is provided that Clint Eastwood said these are the morals and themes then it's simply one audience member's thoughts. I humbly suggest that we can remove the grammar and clarity tags from at least that section of the article. CoW mAnX (talk) 20:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

My two cents: something like this version (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gran_Torino_(film)&oldid=263447457) is much better than what's up there right now. It's supposed to be a summary, not an account of everything that happens in the movie. However, it looks like some work went into the plot summary, so I don't want to replace it unilaterally. --134.198.201.106 (talk) 02:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:FILMPLOT "Plot summaries should be between 400 and 700 words and should not exceed 900 words unless there is a specific reason..." The current plot is just under 1200 words; completely unneccessary. 24.89.208.50 (talk) 16:18, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Apparently the main character's name changed from Walt to Gene halfway through the plot summary? Ginogrz (talk) 08:30, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

I like the detailed plot. 193.60.83.241 (talk) 23:19, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

My take on Gran Torino

Eastwood put a lot into this movie. I was at first reluctant to watch it, thinking it may be just another macho adventure. Eastwood movies are generally entertaining at worst, however, so I put it on my Netflix queue. It moved along well enough to keep me watching. Eastwood has mastered the art of mixing images and action. The perennial Eastwood character fit well into the Detroit neighborhood post-industrial blend of aging America and its eternal melting pot. There is enough external action to make it a watchable movie. The plot is just tight enough, just complex enough, and with just enough elements of situation and character, and enough social commentary to make it stand as a decent movie. There is more to it, though, a lot more. First thing I want to look at is the confessions. It's clear from the start that Kowalski holds some stuff inside. The priest barges into Kowalski's life, stating his mission to fulfill his promise to Kowalski's dying wife to get Walt into confession. Eventually, Walt honors his wife's wish and sees the priest in confession. His life sins, it seems, are that he once kissed another woman while married, and that he'd never gotten close to his children. The priest, seen through the confessional screen, gives out a penance of a few Hail Mary's. Contrast this with the scene at Kowalski's house, as he prepares to avenge the gang's attack on his neighbor. Here, he locks Thao in his basement, behind a mesh security door. The mesh door is important, because it resembles the screen of the church confessional. Kowalski gives a much more animated, heart felt confession to his young neighbor, telling of the war-time killing that has really troubled him. Kowalski has locked Thao in his basement to keep him from taking part in confronting the gang. It is clear that Eastwood is making a religious statement of blood and priesthood. He sees the youth as his true confessor, and he sees the need for him to not have blood on his hands. I want to look, also, at the movie title. Sure, it's about this classic car, that speaks of better part of America's, perhaps, better time, and of the value of maintaining and preserving it, and of eventually passing it on to a new, worthy generation. But I can't help thinking there's more. So I consider "Torino" itself. Torino, Italy. We know it as Turin. It is a city rich in history and culture. Interesting. Turin is a mountain city; contrast that with the mountainous Hmong neighbors in the movie. Turin is an industrial city, nicknamed Europe's Detroit because of its auto manufacturing. Turin has one other thing that I think comes into play in the movie. We all know of the Shroud of Turin. Supposedly the cloth that wrapped Jesus in the sepulture. Take a look at Kowalski's death pose in the movie, I think it resembles the image in the shroud. There is a pan to the blood running out of Kowalski's sleeve into his hand, which is open with a lighter bearing his Calvary emblem -- a reference to the Calvary of the crucifixion? Anyway, all this stuff is in there, and if you want to appreciate this movie at it's depth, pay attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mobiledan (talk • contribs) 17:49, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Background information

Erik, Steve, et al,
This article has background information on the Hmong reaction to the film. There may be parts worth citing in the article.
http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2008/12/19/grantorino/
Hmong get a mixed debut in new Eastwood film
by Laura Yuen, Minnesota Public Radio
December 19, 2008
--Dan Dassow (talk) 19:24, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

http://streettalkin.com/gran-torino/
Philadelphia's internet video channel
Gran Torino
December 23, 2008

This article has a lot of information on the casting and production.

--Dan Dassow (talk) 00:16, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

http://www.startribune.com/entertainment/movies/36949514.html?elr=KArksD:aDyaEP:kD:aUnc5PDiUiD3aPc:_Yyc:aUU

'Gran' slam
The framework for "Gran Torino" -- Clint Eastwood's latest Oscar vehicle -- was built in Minnesota by a jack-of-all-trades.

By COLIN COVERT, Star Tribune

Last update: January 4, 2009 - 7:41 AM

... The screenplay bounced among 70-something actors, including the late Paul Newman and Gene Hackman. Anthony Hopkins passed (to Schenk's relief; that would have been epic miscasting). Eastwood snapped it up, hustled it into production and shot it verbatim. ...

--Dan Dassow (talk) 16:58, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The characterization of Walt as racist (in the very first sentence of the plot summary) should be dropped; it's the reviewer's opinion and I, for one, disagree with it. Although Walt liberally uses racial epithets like "gooks", this is no more racists than the names he calls his Italian barber. Walt consistently judges his fellow human beings based on their actions alone. --Nasorenga (talk) 08:36, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

25 million or 35 million?

Some sources say it cost 35 million, not 25 million, as we have listed now. Which is correct? Badagnani (talk) 23:51, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Box Office Mojo gives the production cost as $33 million. They tend to be fairly accurate on production costs. --Dan Dassow (talk) 20:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Box office take

Where can current box office receipts be found? So far it appears as if it's 5 million above production costs. Badagnani (talk) 23:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Reaction

Need to add reaction from the Hmong American community. Badagnani (talk) 23:03, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

If you find some, add 'em. –  LATICS  talk  03:12, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Sublimation of Gunfighter into Christlike Martyr

Since times of the blood feud there have been various strategies to overcome the dangers of private justice out of bounds. According to René Girard this was the function of the ritual sacrifice in archaic societies...A common topos of late renaissance and baroque art has been the the allegoric image of Justice and Peace, depicted as sisters embracing each other —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.238.171.175 (talk) 10:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

This is 100% Original Research...

But why am I the only person who seems to have noticed that Clint Eastwood's last name in this movie is the exact same as Marlon Brando's in A Streetcar Named Desire (1951 film)... Stanley Kowalski and Walt Kowalski? To prawda! BillyTFried (talk) 05:47, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

or maybe it was a nod to champion wrestler Walter "Killer" Kowalski? WWGB (talk) 12:51, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

according to IMDB.com, there have been 492 male characters named Kowalski in listed movies. Also, see Kowalski in wikipedia. --rogerd (talk) 13:36, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Changed Detroit to Highland Park, Michigan

The Film is set in Highland Park, Michigan, not Detroit. Highland Park is a suburb of Detroit, surrounded by the Motor City as is Hamtramack, but has it's own government and Police Department. --Spectre7277 (talk) 01:15, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes and no. Road signs can be seen for Charlevoix and Eleven Mile, neither of which are anywhere near Highland Park. It's interesting that you never mentioned fire department. What a night that was. MMetro (talk) 07:55, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I happen to live in Highland Park, Michigan and saw the movie in Production. Highland Park, Michigan has Police, Fire Department and Ambulance Services in case you didn't know. If you noticed in the movie that was a Highland Park Police Cruiser that took the catholic priest away from Clint Eastwood's home. Come on now be nice. Kcgs1989 (talk) 03:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

"took the catholic priest away from Clint Eastwood's home" They took the priest from the gangster's home, not Eastwood's. --69.180.37.163 (talk) 02:19, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

proof reading the plot (06.03.09)

On reading the plot section through there are a few cases of ommitted words or strange sentance structure meaning the sentance meaning is lost. Not being a regular wiki editor I don't really know what to do about this so I've included the sentances in question here bolded for emphasis:

"The call is cut short when Mitch, whose family and he didn't want to talk to Walt in the first place, tells him that he's busy." - Whats going on here? When mitch whose family what?

"Meanwhile,The Hmong gang, keeps" Not sure but isn't there excessive comma use here? "Meanwhile, the Hmong gang keeps" would look nicer.

"and calls Sue to have her unlock his basement and let Thao before driving" - Let Thao what? Let him out?

"handcuffed by the police, with terrified facial expressions as they're hauled off to jail"- Shouldnt this be "with terrified expressions on their face" or the like? As this sentance is structured currently it sounds like the police have the terrified expressions. "he hears his other grandson using lewd terminology during prayers while his granddaughter is caught texting on her cellphone"- Okay this one im not sure about; was he using the termanology while she was texting or is there a missing comma here?

"wondering how the Vang Lors know Walt." Minor error here but seeing as Walt is dead at this point shouldn't the word be in the past tense-"knew"

Just what I've spotted reading through 82.33.10.134 (talk) 14:56, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmong

One thing I learned from this movie: That the H in "Hmong" is silent. Das Baz 17:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

The death of Walt, shot dead by gangsters while saying "Hail Mary full of Grace," is eerily similar to that of Salim in Slumdog Millionaire, who shoots it out with gangsters while saying "God is Great." Mutatis mutandis, basically the same. Das Baz 17:52, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

• But Wikipedia can't say that unless there is a reliable source that states this. WhisperToMe (talk) 22:19, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Plot Length

I reckon that the plot summary for this article is a bit long- at l355 words it is well over the guideline of 300-500 words. I don't follow guidelines mindlessly, but I think this particular summary is very long and I'm not sure all the information in it is strictly necessary (the clothing of the nurse who appears for one second, for example- could do without that). Anyway, I thought I'd just let you all know. If I don't get any objections in the next few days, I'll cut it down to a more reasonable size.122.106.160.244 (talk) 08:03, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Update: With no opposition, I've cut just over 300 words of unnecessary detail from the plot summary. It is still a bit long, but it is definitely more readable than it used to be. (If you have any objections to what I'm doing, feel free to revert them, but I reckon this is the best move). 122.106.160.244 (talk) 06:29, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

I've cut a few more, it was still far too detailed. pablo_hablo. 21:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd just like to say well done at making a complete mess of the plot section. You have gone from one extreme to the other. If you insist on having the plot this short, I suggest you remove it altogether. As it stands, it is useless and in fact is misleading to the actual premise of the movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.202.157.237 (talk) 01:56, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Raped?

"The gang retaliates with a drive-by shooting on the Vang Lor home, and by beating and raping Sue." I just saw the movie, even checked that scene again, but I've seen no suggestion of rape. Beaten up, clearly, but where is it made clear she was raped? I'm first asking here in case I missed it (or if it's in a special/extended edition or something, or maybe not said in English), but otherwise this should be removed from the article.W3ird N3rd (talk) 01:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

If you notice, in the scene in question at some point the camera pans down to Sue's legs, on which blood is streaming down from under her skirt. That means something, I suppose. --83.57.133.214 (talk) 14:26, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Checked it, and there is blood on her legs. But there's blood all over her. I'm not really convinced. She might as well have been kicked in the groin. Unless there is more proper proof, I'll remove this from the article somewhere in the next few days (will wait a bit for further proof). It's a really grey area, more people seem to have gotten the suggestion (searched on Google), but if the makers never make it clear (in an interview or something), it probably shouldn't be on Wikipedia like a fact.W3ird N3rd (talk) 14:07, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

If there is no source saying she was raped, the article should not say so. We cannot depend upon editors watching and rewatching the movie and coming to their own conclusions. I say take it out, as the article is none the lesser without that claim. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 14:16, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I've found some proof myself. At the end of the movie, Walt tells the gang "because it was either he or you or someone who raped one of their own family". Too bad I didn't "get" that she was raped the first time I saw it.. Would have made the movie even stronger for me.W3ird N3rd (talk) 15:58, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Yum Yum

Surely that isn't a simple mispronunciation on Walt Kowalski's part, but rather a somewhat condescending (characteristically for Walt...) allusion to Gilbert and Sullivan's The Mikado? Feketekave (talk) 23:54, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

File:Gran Torino Shooting.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Possible minor grammar change

There's nothing "wrong" per se about this version of the article. Yet still, I felt a vague imprecision with the wording in one place, and I'd like to submit two possible rewordings for consideration. This first is here, and the second, is here. I'm usually not at such a loss for words to explain why I prefer these edits, and I recognize that this weakens (to say the least) my case, but perhaps others will see what I am saying. 74.178.230.234 (talk) 20:13, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Illness

Regarding the plot summary, I thought it was an important aspect of the plot that Eastwood's character had a medical report before he decided to go to confession etc before the end shoot-out (I'm not sure if it was clear to the viewer what the medical report was about but I didn't notice any detail while watching).

I'm reluctant to jump in to editing the plot summary as others know the film better than I and the issue may have been previously discussed so I wouldn't want my edit to be reverted.

If anyone would like to make that edit, please do, or if anyone knows why it's not there, please tell. I may go edit myself if no light is shed.

--Mortice (talk) 00:44, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I think it's important and I'll add a mention of it. A file that long, you'd think they diagnosed him with cancer - helps explain why he martyrs himself. CSZero (talk) 04:44, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Files

I found:

• Hoffman, Kevin. "Gran Torino is racist and insensitive, says Hmong writer." City Pages. Wednesday January 7, 2009.
• Battle, Roxane. "U to host panel with Hmong actors from 'Gran Torino'." Minn Post. February 19, 2009.
• http://asia.isp.msu.edu/calendar/details.htm?id=42806 - http://www.webcitation.org/66GV744Sb
• Video interviews at Crossings TV:
  • http://www.crossingstv.com/file/wmv/GT.wmv - Too big to be archived by webcitation.org
  • http://crossingstv.com/file/wmv/GT2.wmv - Too big to be archived by webcitation.org
• Peterson-de la Cueva, Lisa. "Gran Torino connects Hmong Minnesotans with Hollywood." Twin Cities Daily Planet. November 24, 2008.
• Hamlin, Andrew. "‘Gran Torino’ falls short on depiction of Hmong." Northeast Asian Weekly. December 31, 2008.
• Schein, Louisa. "Hmong Actors Making History: The Bad Guys Of Eastwood's Gran Torino." New American Media. September 3, 2008.
• http://seatrip.ucr.edu/GranTorino.pdf - http://www.webcitation.org/66AZp5fC1 - Flyer for discussion about the film
• Sternberg, Laura. "Information About Clint Eastwood's "Gran Torino" and Hmong in Detroit." About.com.
  • A review of a draft script: http://www.frederickwilliamspringeriii.com/Springer-Coverage.pdf - Not sure who the author of the review is
• "Anthropology: After Gran Torino, A workshop with Lead Actor Bee Vang on race, masculinity, and media activism." California State University Long Beach. January 24, 2011. - I attempted to archive this on webcitation, but it gave page not found

WhisperToMe (talk) 01:13, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Institute of Advanced Study Panel discussion

• Home: http://www.ias.umn.edu/media/GranTorino.php - http://www.webcitation.org/669U9popV
  • Part 1 Audio: https://mediamill.cla.umn.edu/mediamill/download.php?file=94950.mp3 - too big to be archived by webcitation.org
  • Part 2 Audio: https://mediamill.cla.umn.edu/mediamill/download.php?file=94949.mp3 - too big to be archived by webcitation.org
• http://mediamill.cla.umn.edu/mediamill/flvplayer.swf

07:15, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

More:

• Chiu, Monica. "Introduction" (Archive) In: Pfeifer, et al. Diversity in Diaspora. University of Hawaii Press, 2013.

WhisperToMe (talk) 10:27, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Notes about Bee Vang interview

The Bee Vang interview with Schein is published in:

• Chi, Sang and Emily Moberg Robinson. Voices of the Asian American and Pacific Islander Experience: Volume 1. ABC-CLIO, Feb 28, 2012. ISBN 1598843540, 9781598843545.

The interview is preceded by commentary from the editors, and then it begins on page 327. WhisperToMe (talk) 18:30, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Alternate interpretations and Undue weight

About this article: Schein, Louisa and Va-Megn Thoj. "Gran Torino’s Boys and Men with Guns: Hmong Perspectives." (Archive) Hmong Studies Journal. Volume 10. p. 25-26. Retrieved on March 16, 2012.

Remember that the authors acknowledge that the mainstream response is "centered on Eastwood‘s character and viewed the film mainly as a vision of multicultural inclusion and understanding." and that the alternate one they explore in this article is "alternate ―ethnotextual approach, reflecting the conversations of a Hmong studies anthropologist and a Hmong filmmaker/activist, includes the perspectives of Hmong involved in creating the film and considers critical response to the final product within the Hmong community." - So we know that the majority (not the majority ethnic group, but rather the majority of people who commented about the film) took the former, while a minority (not the minority ethnic group, but a minority of people who commented about the film) took the latter.

Remember to please make sure that the article gives more weight to the former than the later. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view#Due_and_undue_weight makes it clear that the majority perspective should be given more weight than the minority perspective. It says "Wikipedia should not present a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention overall as the majority view." Jimbo makes it clear in a mailing list post here WhisperToMe (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

• From further research, there was some debate over whether GT is a "White man saved the day" story in relation to the Hmong. I'll try to present the viewpoints in proportion and name notable adherents. WhisperToMe (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, bear in mind that the article directly contradicts Hmong culture. For example, "Hmong Cultural Profile" by Christine Wilson Owens - see http://ethnomed.org/culture/hmong/hmong-cultural-profile - states that "Most traditional Hmong elders, especially men, do not want strangers to touch their heads, or those of their children, due to their religious beliefs and personal values." However, the Wikipedia article quotes a paper (which disputes the fact) as if the latter were correct. It does not acknowledge that a disagreement exists at all. Also see "Healing by Heart: Clinical and Ethical Case Stories of Hmong..." by Kathie Culhane-Pera. "Touching certain parts of the body may be considered disrespectful or insulting to the Hmong. For example, touching an adult's head is insulting. " (p. 331) At the very least, it is wrong to state that touching a Hmong person's head is OK. The article should therefore be updated. - Hugo Rabson, 2012-10-08 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.28.158.54 (talk) 16:22, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

• Hi, Hugo! The way to deal something disputed, then is to say A says W, B says Y - See Jimbo Wales's comments at Wikipedia:NPOV#Due_and_undue_weight: "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;

If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents; If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia regardless of whether it is true or not and regardless of whether you can prove it or not, except perhaps in some ancillary article." - Since I am not aware of which view is in the "majority" I will say "A says W, B says Y"

• The reason why I wrote these parts of the article in the "However, the Wikipedia article quotes a paper (which disputes the fact) as if the latter were correct" because I did not know of anything that contradicted it. Once you introduced new material, then it shifts to "A says W, B says Y" because there is no evidence that either side is the absolute majority. Thank you very much for finding the Cultural Profile source.
• WhisperToMe (talk) 17:32, 28 October 2012 (UTC)

Which page numbers in http://www4.gu.edu.au:8080/adt-root/uploads/approved/adt-QGU20061024.120129/public/02Whole.pdf support your assertions about Hmong crime being shameful/having stigma? WhisperToMe (talk) 09:16, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Crossings TV interviews

It seems like the Crossings TV interviews:

• Crossings TV interviews - Part 1 and Part 2

Are in fact the same University of Minnesota panel discussion videos hosted elsewhere

• Source: Vang, Ma (University of California, San Diego). "Displaced histories : refugee critique and the politics of Hmong American remembering." 2012. Local Identifier: b7343931

• p. 185: " 340 “Hmong Speak Out on Gran Torino: A Discussion with the Hmong Actors,” producer Louisa Schein, at the University of Minnesota, February 20, 2009, accessed on July 31, 2011. http://www.crossingstv.com/file/wmv/GT.wmv."
• p. 222: "“Hmong Speak Out on Gran Torino: A Discussion with the Hmong actors,” producer/director Louisa Schein, at the University of Minnesota, February 20, 2009, accessed on July 31, 2011. http://www.crossingstv.com/file/wmv/GT.wmv."

WhisperToMe (talk) 07:19, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

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Undue weight

There are two separate and lengthy sections concerning the Hmong:"Hmong people and culture during the production" and "Reception in relation to the Hmong". This article is about a film, not an ethnic group. Could some of this be trimmed or moved to the "Hmong Americans" article? Mannanan51 (talk) 19:28, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

@Mannanan51: While this is about a film, the film was built heavily around the ethnic group with the original script inspired by the group and with multiple actors and characters being Hmong. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:48, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

Advertisement

I fail to see the relevance of the exact Rifle (M1) and car make. This stinks of advertisement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.205.216.123 (talk) 22:39, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

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Word order, coherency

Just made 3 small edits, changes of wording, that match the narrative of the article. No changes of intent or fact. Tapered (talk) 05:20, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

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Title Song Plagiarized?

I am committing suicide here! The melody of the title song, or significant parts of it, are plagiarized from a song titled 'Señora', by Joan Manuel Serrat. I am not imagining this; you may take this as an amateur's opinion. The earliest version is 1970 in an album titled 'Mi Niñez', Señora; several more recent versions are on Youtube. The song was popular in its day and continues to be remembered in Spain. Clint had significant Spain connections, so he could have heard it often, no? I have no musical training whatsoever, but I trust my ear. Eastwood's song is done at a slower tempo than Serrat's, but the melodic similarities are apparent to me. Could someone with musical training and a musician's ear please verify my claim. I hope I am not being churlish by suggesting that Serrat was an icon long before Eastwood. 108.16.37.110 (talk) 08:44, 30 November 2018 (UTC)

Unless a newspaper, journal article, magazine article, etc. documented the connection, this can't be included because it would be Wikipedia:Original research WhisperToMe (talk) 23:22, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

question about plot

Is highland Park a city? or a suburb of detroit seems like a neighborhood anyone? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.16.13.157 (talk) 04:37, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

It is its own municipality, but it is almost completely surrounded by Detroit. WhisperToMe (talk) 01:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

Highland Park is not Detroit

You can watch it yourself, so for those who insist that it is Detroit, please corroborate it and change the movie´s plot. Thanks --81.44.207.142 (talk) 21:35, 29 January 2020 (UTC)

@81.44.207.142: I am aware Highland Park is a separate municipality. It is also surrounded almost completely by Detroit so it is culturally connected. WhisperToMe (talk) 17:46, 17 June 2021 (UTC)

References

Why is Falling Down in the "See Also" section?

Not seeing how these two movies are really similar or even how they connect. EggsInMyPockets (talk) 04:08, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

I agree - the direct relevance of Falling Down or The Shootist is not clear in the article body. They should probably be removed. ( Butterpaper (talk) 15:27, 9 May 2020 (UTC) )