Talk:Frederick Hutton (scientist)

Requested move 1 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Closed by nominator as not moved for technical reasons, as the situation has changed; make a clean start. Schwede66 17:29, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

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Frederick Wollaston Hutton → Frederick Hutton – Move over redirect, and create hatnote for Frederick Remsen Hutton [where that existing redirect points to]. Dictionary of New Zealand Biography entries have a rather subtle way of indicating a subject's common name: the person is introduced by their full name, then mentioned by their surname only, and if they have a common name, this is mentioned once, generally either at the beginning of the bio, or in relation to their death. In this particular instance, it's mentioned half-way through the bio. I usually move articles where the DNZB bio mentions a common name 'on sight', but given that he's a well-published scientist, the case might not be so straightforward, as scientific literature may have him under a slightly different name. So this is just a courtesy call to check whether there are any dissenting views. Schwede66 18:36, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• NOTE the redirect "Frederick Hutton" does not redirect here. It redirects to Frederick Remsen Hutton so this is a primary topic change. It has redirected to the US engineer since 2007 (so for 8 years now). -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• I have amended the move request for clarity [new text in square brackets]. Schwede66 01:03, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Alternate redirect Frederick Hutton to Hutton (surname) and be done with it. -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I am unwilling to lay too much weight on the vagaries of name use in the DNZB, unless I can be shown a clear policy of theirs on the matter. In his scientific career, though, he is almost always referred to as "Frederick Wollaston Hutton", and only much more rarely as "F. W. Hutton" or "Frederick Hutton". It seems to me, now as before, that "Frederick Wollaston Hutton" is the usual way of referring to the man, even if that was not followed by DNZB. "Wollaston" was F.W.H.'s mother's maiden name, and was given to all the sons of that union (presumably to lend them some of the kudos of that well-known family). --Stemonitis (talk) 09:39, 2 December 2015 (UTC)

• Frederick Hutton should certainly be a dab page (or redirect to the Hutton (surname) dab page, per 70.51...) - especially given that this character probably merits a Wikipedia article as well... This article could probably also be listed on it. Grutness...wha? 09:35, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
  • Actually Frederick Hutton (naval officer) does now exist... so a dab page would make a lot more sense that a simple move.

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 3 December 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Per established precedent as specified in naming guidelines, there is not a consensus to move this page. Biblioworm 20:25, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

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Frederick Wollaston Hutton → Frederick Hutton (scientist) – Dictionary of New Zealand Biography entries have a rather subtle way of indicating a subject's common name: the person is introduced by their full name, then mentioned by their surname only, and if they have a common name, this is mentioned once, generally either at the beginning of the bio, or in relation to their death. In this particular instance, it's mentioned half-way through the bio. I usually move articles where the DNZB bio mentions a common name 'on sight' (and by now, would have moved hundreds of DNZB entries), but given that he's a well-published scientist, the case might not be so straightforward, as scientific literature may have him under a slightly different name. So this is just a courtesy call to check whether there are any dissenting views. Note that given that there are now three people of the name on Wikipedia, I have turned the existing redirect, which previously pointed to Frederick Remsen Hutton, into a disambiguation page. Schwede66 17:37, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• @Stemonitis: Not that you would have changed your mind, I suppose, but you should state your opinion once again. Schwede66 17:39, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
• @Grutness: Not sure whether you'd like to comment again; thanks for adding the naval officer. Schwede66 17:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Oppose. Actually, a different reason does come into play here, namely that where a natural disambiguating term exists, it is to be preferred to a title with a parenthetical disambiguator (WP:NCDAB: "If natural disambiguation is not available, a parenthetical is used"). That means that, even if the scientist were generally known as "Frederick Hutton" (which has not been shown), the article would still be better placed as "Frederick Wollaston Hutton" than "Frederick Hutton (scientist)". --Stemonitis (talk) 18:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

• No, that concept does not apply to naming people, and WP:Middle names specifically states that "adding given names, or their abbreviations, merely for disambiguation purposes (if that format of the name is not commonly used to refer to the person) is not advised". Schwede66 18:21, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but that format is commonly used. --Stemonitis (talk)

Comment - not sure whether a move is needed one way or the other, but at the very least Frederick Hutton (scientist) should be a redirect (or, if moved, the full name should be). Grutness...wha? 02:48, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Stemonitis. The WP:Middle names bit that you quote is profoundly at variance from normal usage, and since policies and guidelines are meant to reflect what we generally do, I see no reason to follow an aberrant guideline and deviate from what we generally do. Nyttend (talk) 23:25, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
• Comment. Comments here seem to suggest that some editors believe that our normal practice is to use a middle name as a disambiguator as "natural disambiguation". It is not, as is clearly stated in WP:Middle names and is most certainly not "profoundly at variance from normal usage". Our normal practice is only to use middle names if they were or are commonly used to refer to an individual (not in biographical dictionaries, which invariably do use them, but in day-to-day usage). I don't know whether this is the case with Hutton or not, but unless he is commonly referred to using his middle name then we should not do so. This is not an "aberrant guideline" and is not "deviat[ing] from what we generally do". It is what we generally do and I'm puzzled as to why experienced editors would think we do anything else. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:28, 9 December 2015 (UTC)

That's not what I was suggesting. Both forms of the name (with "Wollaston" and without) are used. The form with the middle name is therefore available as a naturally disambiguated form, and should therefore be preferred over a form with parentheses. Sorry if this was unclear. --Stemonitis (talk) 07:50, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

You weren't so much, but Nyttend did appear to be suggesting this. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:24, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.