Talk:Escape to Victory

Untitled

Reverted back to original draft due to its informative nature. Other revisions were a bit bloated.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.92.179.226 (talk) 20:50, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Can't help noticing that none of the German star footballers are mentioned here. I mean they may have been the bad guys, but players like Franz Beckenbaur (most likely i spelt this wrong) are also legends.--ZincBelief (talk) 13:02, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

did Beckenbauer feature in the movie ? PalX 13:08, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes he did, along with some other famous german players. None of which are listed! This page only lists the Allied team. I mean I know this is a patriotic kids movie, but this is taking the comic book bias too far :)--ZincBelief (talk) 14:51, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the below about Beckenbauer, there's so many references to ipswich town (must have been written by a fan) and so few to the great players... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.141.55.10 (talk) 19:27, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Having just seen the film (again) a few weeks ago, I don't recall seeing Beckenbauer anywhere, or listed in the credits - who does he play? 78.151.213.10 (talk)

The captain of the german team was the german actor Horst Bucholtz one of the stars of the Magnificent Seven. 199.229.240.254 (talk) 07:54, 27 April 2013 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:EscapeToVictory.jpg

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flags

there shouls be seperate Saltire's and st george crosses beside the footballers not union flags because Scotland and England compete seperately at football —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.13.130.14 (talk) 22:55, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

If you don't have all the flags memorized, you won't know where the actors are from.Landroo (talk) 03:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Ardiles

Which nationality was Carlos Rey (Osvaldo Ardiles) supposed to be? Argentina were neutral throughout the War. 188.221.129.72 (talk) 12:12, 1 October 2011 (UTC)

It is claimed he was either Mexican or Costa Rican.Statto74 (talk) 06:43, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

External links modified

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Poster change  ?!?

this is better poster for change https://www.ebay.ie/itm/668-VICTORY-red-style-intl-1sh-81-John-Huston-Stallone-Caine-Pele-Escape-/252724360064 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:4802:2800:0:0:0:0:55B (talk) 23:42, 7 July 2019 (UTC) Title change ?!? to Victory ?— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:4802:2800:0:0:0:0:155B (talk) 22:48, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Title should be changed

Escape to Victory is title for UK not for USA Victory is more official title for film in USA is American film — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:4802:2800:0:0:0:0:155B (talk) 07:44, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

This is correct. The movie is called Victory (you can see that if you watch it), and it was only marketed as Escape to Victory in the UK.

And as well other countries, so I oppose.(KIENGIR (talk) 04:34, 18 November 2020 (UTC))

The American version?

This movie is quite similar in plot to The Longest Yard: Abused prisoners rally to defeat the "goons." 71.220.132.188 (talk) 02:13, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 8 March 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus there is support to move to the US title, but opposition arguments invoking WP:COMMONNAME.(non-admin closure) Polyamorph (talk) 13:40, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

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Escape to Victory → Victory (1981 film) – The article has 7 external links to major film databases, and every single one of them refers to the film as Victory. Chubbles (talk) 05:43, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose so film database editors use the US name. Still on DVD in the UK under the UK name. Can't see that the move is needed per WP:NATURALDISAMBIGUATION In ictu oculi (talk) 09:17, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 12:36, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per In ictu oculi. GiantSnowman 12:40, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
• Support, per references. It's an American film, so the American title, as well as the universality of the External links titling, seems more appropriate than the UK title. Randy Kryn (talk) 12:54, 8 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NATDAB. Even if the film is "American", the two titles were both released by the film makers, so this is not a case where one name is linked to the country of origin and the other not since both come from there. Since many of the actors were not Americans, and the story that the film was based on was Hungarian, and the film made much more money on the international markets than in the US (understandably because of the subject matter), the link to the US is anyway less strong than suggested above. FOARP (talk) 19:42, 8 March 2021 (UTC)

Note: Announcement of this discussion appears at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• Support per Randy Kryn. English Wikipedia standard for English language films has always been: British release titles for British films, American release titles for American films, Australian release titles for Australian films, etc. Since there is no claim that this was a British-American co-production, the original release American title is expected to prevail, per its entry in all film databases. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 07:06, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Support per Roman Spinner. —El Millo (talk) 08:10, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

Support per Chubbles and Randy Kryn/Roman Spinner. --Sprachraum (talk) 08:18, 9 March 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, per In ictu oculi, GiantSnowman and FOARP. The film was an American-British-Italian co-production, shot in Hungary, next to it the current title is the most known and were released such translations of the title other countries.(KIENGIR (talk) 23:26, 9 March 2021 (UTC))

Although shot in Hungary to save production costs, Victory is an entirely American production, not "an American-British-Italian co-production". The film's production background is detailed under "History" in its American Film Institute entry and its country of production is listed as "United States". Even its entry at the British Film Institute is under the title Victory, not Escape to Victory. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:35, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Well, it's an old film and these production issues are sloppily mentioned or documented, however the Hungarian national film archive contains these datas and various production companies involved. If it would be a widely known top A category film, surely we would not have these issues.(KIENGIR (talk) 11:32, 10 March 2021 (UTC))

The film, produced 40 years ago, is moderately old and even though there was a big saving in production costs by filming in Hungary, it was still a 116-minute multi-million-dollar major American studio (Paramount Pictures) "widely known top A category film". By 1981, its director John Huston had been nominated for nine Oscars and won two. Among its leading players, both top-billed Sylvester "Rocky" "Rambo" Stallone and Michael Caine had two Oscar nominations and other major names, such as Max Von Sydow or Pelé also raised the production's prestige as well as cost. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 22:01, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Ok, you are elder than me for sure, but it was not Star Wars or Rambo, when I said A-cat maybe I exaggareted it to the most widely known franchises. Do not misunderstand, I like the film very much, surely Andrew G. Vajna's hand was in it as well to take the movie to Hungary, who was one of it's producers. Here, ([1]), if check the first picture, John Houston is in a Escape to Victory T-shirt :).(KIENGIR (talk) 22:55, 11 March 2021 (UTC))

Thank you for the link to the Hungarian newspaper story. The interview with Pelé and especially the photographs are an excellent addition to the film's references. As for the film's age, yes of course, 40 years does not seem that long ago for a man in his 70s, such as myself.

According to the film's history recounted in its American Film Institute Catalog entry, the title was indeed Escape to Victory throughout its filming in 1980 and was reported as shortened to its American release title Victory on May 12, 1981, only two-and-a-half months before its American premiere on July 31, 1981.

Thus, it certainly makes sense that, at the time of filming, the t-shirt would depict what was then the film's official title. Incidentally, in the photograph, white-bearded John Huston who marked his 74th birthday during filming on August 5, 1980, is not the one wearing the "V Escape to Victory" t-shirt. I'm not certain who the wearer is, but it might be Andrew Vajna himself whose 36th birthday was five days earlier, on August 1. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh, you're right, it was may fault, the legend tell that Houston is sitting in the chair, someone else wearing the T-shirt, though it's surely not Vajna (I recognize him easily), and the one who could be seem apparently elder than 36. Also I add - I know a bit late - First Blood was released the next year, so Stallone had been famous of Rocky until then.(KIENGIR (talk) 12:28, 13 March 2021 (UTC))

• Oppose In addition to the arguments stated above, the cultural significance of this film is much greater in the UK and Ireland than it is in the USA. Most speakers of Atlantic Isles Englishes know this film by name, and are likely to have seen it, whereas most speakers of American English are unaware of its existence. Therefore WP:COMMONNAME is relevant. Anybody searching for this film is statistically more likely to search for its European name than its American one. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:23, 10 March 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per In ictu oculi and Boynamedsue. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 09:13, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post RM discussion chat

Just a side-point here, WP:COMMONNAME is very hard to determine for this article using the typical search tools as the title "Victory" is entirely contained within the name "Escape to Victory", so searches for "Victory" will also catch references to "Escape to Victory", and as "Victory" is a very common word used in many different contexts. Using the databases cited in the article to determine the common name is misguided as these often just reproduce information from a register/directory and the name they use is not governed by it being a common name. On the other side of the equation we have the fact that "Escape to Victory" is how the film is named in Michael Cain's autobiography, Pele's, Bobby Moore's biography, Ellegra Huston's (daughter of the director), Terry Butcher's Biography etc. - it appears that the people who worked on the film mostly referred to it as "Escape to Victory" when it was in production and continued to call it that even after its American premiere. FOARP (talk) 15:41, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

As described within its entry in the American Film Institute Catalog of Motion Pictures, the film was referenced as Escape to Victory in Daily Variety — "[A]n item in the 14 Sep 1979 DV reported that actor Alain Delon was cast in the film, now titled Escape to Victory", until its mention in Hollywood Reporter — "[A]n item in the 12 May 1981 HR stated the film’s title was changed to Victory. The film was released domestically on 31 Jul 1981..."

Since the film's WP:COMMONNAME from September 1979 to May 1981 had been Escape to Victory (as evidenced by Escape to Victory production t-shirts) and it was distributed under that title in Britain and likely in other parts of the English-speaking world, except the U.S., it is unsurprising that a number of the people involved with the film have continued to reference it as Escape to Victory.

Ultimately, however, even the British Film Institute lists this American film under its American release title and, furthermore, I cannot find any other American film which did not have its final release title listed as its WP:COMMONNAME within all the databases listed at the start of this nomination. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 00:21, 23 March 2021 (UTC)