Talk:Eastern Ukraine campaign

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request to add Redut PMC to Order of Battle

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit semi-protected}} template. It seems there is plenty of community discussion happening, so I am setting the answered flag to yes while debate continues. If consensus emerges but there are no editors who can make the edit, feel free to reopen the request. Xan747 (talk) 15:23, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

@Xan747 Why are you denying all requests when they clearly differ? It is an established fact that the Redut (PMC) exists and that it is involved in battles in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Redut PMC is listed in numerous battles and dozens of Wiki sites. Where I can find this "community discussion"?

https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offensive-campaign-assessment-april-26-2023 Zerbrxsler (talk) 11:20, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Zerbrxsler, for the record, I did fill the same request for you at Battle of Bakhmut, and it has not been reverted. But perhaps I should not have done so. The argument being made is that Redut's role is not significant enough relative to Wagner's to warrant inclusion in the infobox. Yes, we can find mention of them in multiple sources, so it's not a question of whether they exist or not--clearly they do. The other argument is that if we're to include them in the infobox, we should actually put content about their actions in the body of the article to give necessary context for why they've been highlighted in the infobox. The overarching concern here is that infoboxes are especially not indiscriminate dumping grounds for any piece of trivia we can find passing mentions of in a news article somewhere.

So in sum, your edit request really doesn't go far enough. You should also write--I would say at least a paragraph--of article content describing their actions, backed by multiple reliable sources. And obviously that content will vary depending on which article you wish to edit. Then it's appropriate to make individual edit requests in each article, and no need to worry about creating a centralized discussion about it--though if you were to create one, I'd suggest the main invasion article as the place to do it. Xan747 (talk) 17:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

@Zerbrxsler, PS: feel free to ping me when you create the new edit requests to make sure I see them. Xan747 (talk) 17:48, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

 Note: The same request has been made at Battle of the Svatove and Battle of Avdiivka (2022–present). In an effort to reduce duplicate effort, I will refer those requests here since this is the one getting discussion. If consensus emerges here to do this edit, it might reasonable to do them elsewhere. Xan747 (talk) 15:43, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Please add the private military company Redut (company) to the order of battle of the campaign, below or above the Wagner Group entry. Sources for involvement in Eastern Ukraine Campaign battles: Battle of Kharkiv, the Battle of the Siverskyi Donets and the Battle of Balakliia. As of mid-July 2022, two detachments of Redut, each counting 200 fighters, were operating in the Donbas region of Ukraine, both led by former Wagner Group commanders. Per ISW, the Redut formation "Veterany" is operating in the Battle of Bakhmut on the flanks of the city. The intelligence firm Grey Dynamics reported that Veterany also conducted offensive operations around Avdiivka, Vuhledar, and around Novoselivske in the Battle of the Svatove–Kreminna line. Zerbrxsler (talk) 11:43, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that apart from Wagner, the other PMCs are under command of and subordinate to the Russian Armed Forces. Is there a point in singling them out in the infobox if they are not prominent in the campaign nor in the article text?  —Michael Z. 19:05, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac They are prominent in the campaign. Redut is a private military company that is in contract with the MoD, estimated 7000 fighters. They are engaging, committing war crimes, and they are part of this Order of Battle. Please add the Redut PMC to it.

Also, before the rebellion it was also argued that Wagner has strong ties to the MoD - and now big parts including their equipment are taken over by the MoD, so you can't be sure of their status even. Zerbrxsler (talk) 14:03, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

References

Horlivka offensive

Did anything actually come of that? The article got redirected, and I can't find much about it online. I've been considering whether it should even be mentioned in this article. HappyWith (talk) 15:28, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Post-merge of Northeastern Ukraine campaign notes

I've merged the Kharkiv material from Northeastern Ukraine campaign into this article. If I have time, I'll fix this myself later, but just to notify other editors: I copied basically all of the relevant material over in a bit of a rough and indiscriminate way, so there is a ton of trimming and copy editing that can be done to integrate the additions better into the article and remove unnecessary detail that can be covered in a child article. HappyWith (talk) 02:21, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 November 2023

Russia has captured all of bakhmut Napalm Guy (talk) 19:20, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 19:22, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Marinka city?

In the status part of the infobox, it lists that Russia captured the cities of Bakhmut, Avdiivka, and Marinka. I understand the first two, but Marinka? Marinka is not a city but a suburb of Donetsk City. I propose removing Marinka from the list of cities taken by Russia in Eastern Ukraine. 2601:85:C100:46C0:C198:5F25:73F0:DB5D (talk) 02:22, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

It is officially a city, see list of cities in Ukraine. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 22:43, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Referring to russian push as a "breakthrough"

None of the sources in the "Russian breakthroughs and capture of Avdiivka (January 2024–present)" section actually refer to the Russian actions as a "breakthrough". IMHO using "breakthrough" here constitutes WP:SYNTH at the very least, if not full on WP:PUFFERY and should be replaced with more neutral language such as "push" or "confrontation". pinging @RopeTricks Tdmurlock (talk) 01:00, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

That's an exaggeration. "Breakthrough" is descriptive language and very logical in that context. Why do you think the Ukrainians had to retreat in a hurry from Avdiivka, leaving wounded behind? Because the "push"/"confrontation" you're advocating for was fast, hence the chaos. A fast push is a breakthrough. This isn't stretching the imagination nor synthesis gymnastics. It isn't hard to find sources using "breakthrough": [1][2][3]. One could constrain the breakthrough though to be localized to Avdiivka and not necessarily to other settlements (a major frontline breakthrough). Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:36, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Hold up. I think you are referring to using "breakthroughs" outside Avdiivka? If so, then I would agree. There were pushes/advances on other parts of the front, only Avdiivka was fast and relatively chaotic. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:38, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

What happened in Avdiivka was by all intents and purposes a Russian breakthrough, anyone that monitors the war daily and understands what the term means militarily, should comprehend that. No "puffery" and no synth necessary. As for non-Avdiivka advances, I used the term for consistency purpose because of the Eastern Ukraine campaign#Russian breakthroughs (December 2022–March 2023) also used the term "breakthroughs" and no one had an issue with that one a year ago. I am now convinced by Alexis that using "breakthroughs" this early may be jumping the gun, so I'll neutralize the text with their point in mind. RopeTricks (talk) 16:43, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Let me also add that the Avdiivka breakthrough seems to not be only limited to the city, i.e. it still continues. This is because Russia appears to be in a "recapture spree" there as evidenced in Territorial control during the Russo-Ukrainian War#2024. Alexis Coutinho (talk) 15:46, 27 February 2024 (UTC)