Talk:Criticism of Israel
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 | On 9 July 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from Criticism of the Israeli government to Criticism of Israel. The result of the discussion was moved. |
Requested move 9 July 2023 edit
- The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 10:35, 16 July 2023 (UTC)
Criticism of the Israeli government → Criticism of Israel – The current name is not reflective of realities. The article content refers to criticism of the whole of the state of Israel: its government, judiciary and parliament. It does not exclusively refer to criticism of the government. Moreover, current title implies there is the same government that is being criticized, ignoring the frequent government changes in Israel over the past decades, from left to right to far-right, etc.. And most importantly, "criticism of Israel" is the most common name in online sources, "criticism of the Israeli government" does not even come close. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:51, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- Comment I have the impression that many just use "Israel" as a shortform for "Israeli government". And the sources reflect the tendentious argument that "criticism of Israel" is anti-Semitic. However, I understand the intention, maybe Criticism of Israel and its government might work? Along the lines of https://www.politico.eu/article/israel-benjamin-netanyahu-democracy-erodes-its-government-delegitimizes-criticism/ which hops back and forth between the two.Selfstudier (talk) 17:13, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- As it stands it would be appear to be consistent with Criticism of the United States government. I've struggled to find other analogous pages, but I guess the reason for the wording is that the government has the agency. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:13, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- This article also contains information about judicial system, which is separate from the government. Also the Knesset which has formulated some of the discriminatory laws. On the other hand, the Criticism of the United States government article focuses exclusively on the government, as seen from the subsection "government structure". Makeandtoss (talk) 08:53, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Fair point. Yes, it might be overly precise in the context here. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:05, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- This article also contains information about judicial system, which is separate from the government. Also the Knesset which has formulated some of the discriminatory laws. On the other hand, the Criticism of the United States government article focuses exclusively on the government, as seen from the subsection "government structure". Makeandtoss (talk) 08:53, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
- Strong support. This article is about criticism of Israel as a whole, not just its government—although it's sometimes difficult to separate the two. O.N.R. (talk) 21:39, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support. I can't believe it isn't that already. 〜 Festucalex • talk 09:59, 10 July 2023 (UTC)
Oppose move. The Israeli system of government includes its government, judiciary and parliament
. I think that Criticism of the Israeli government is the more precise title, as it avoids any unnecessary antisemitic connotations that could arise if readers think that Criticism of Israel includes criticism of Israelis. — Freoh 17:42, 10 July 2023 (UTC)- The article contains and should contain plenty of criticism of Israelis, particularly settlers, which is not "antisemitic" in any way or form. Settlements are illegal under International law. Settler outposts are illegal under Israeli law. Settler violence and terrorism are illegal and immoral. I fail to see how criticisms of these crimes is considered "antisemitic".
- In political science, the "state" is the executive, judiciary and legislative branches. The "government system" is how it operates. The article contents are not exclusively about the Israeli government, the executive branch as the name implies. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:21, 11 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support Much of the criticism can be said to stem from an existential debate on the very concept of Jewish homeland, where "criticism of the [...] government" would imply that debates are limited to concerns with the current incarnation of the Israeli government alone Orchastrattor (talk) 16:27, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Weak support: The contents of the page do not appear to be particularly government focused, and I don't see any particularly reason to oppose the move. The page is also presently not that internally consistent with one section beginning "Criticism of Israel ..." without the government, so there's also that. The scope seems ostensibly broader. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:36, 12 July 2023 (UTC)
- Support per above. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:13, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
- For the record the original name of this article was "Criticism of Israel", but it was changed 12 years ago resulting from the discussion at an AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Criticism of Israel. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:10, 13 July 2023 (UTC)
Importance noting IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism edit
I think it would be best to include a small note that the IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism is a non-legally binding statement on what antisemitism. The language used in mentioning it in the beginning paragraph in Comparisons with Nazi Germany appears to lend a sense of official conclusion regarding the comparisons between Nazi Germany being antisemitism rather than them being legitimate scholarly discourse. Perhaps a rewording could help or a small note that the definition has its own criticisms and is a non-legally binding statement. Odin Vex (talk) 16:47, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Request for Edit edit
Hello, I would like to request an edit. The specific passage in question is as follows:
Original: "In 2002 Desmond Tutu is a critic of Israel who has compared Israel's policies to apartheid South Africa. Tutu wrote that criticism of Israel is suppressed in the United States, and that criticisms of Israel are 'immediately dubbed anti-Semitic'.”
Proposed Amendment: "In 2002, Desmond Tutu, a critic of Israel, compared Israel's policies to apartheid-era South Africa. Tutu wrote that criticism of Israel is suppressed in the United States, and that criticisms of Israel are 'immediately dubbed anti-Semitic'.” Bernsteinnn (talk) 05:11, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
Proposed changes to in first paragraph of intro edit
The current first paragraph contains the following sentence:
- Israel has faced international criticism since its declaration of independence in 1948 relating to a variety of topics,[1][2][3][4] both historical and contemporary.
First, I propose to remove all citations to Alan Deshowitz's book which has been exposed as a fraud, with multiple sections plagiarized directly from another fraud (Joan Peters' book).
Second, I propose to remove citation 3 here which includes a quote which is definitely not NPOV, and is hardly relevant to the topic.
Third, I propose to remove citation 4 which is more of a response to criticisms rather than criticisms in their own right, so it's not a good citation for this first sentence. This article also conflates the notion of criticism of Israel with "vilification" of Israel.
I also propose to rework this sentence to be more consistent with the rest of the article and remove vague or non-essential content:
- Israel has faced international criticism since its declaration of independence in 1948 relating to a variety of issues, many of which are centered around human rights violations in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.
DMH43 (talk) 03:53, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
References
- ^ Dershowitz, Alan (2004). The Case for Israel. p. 1.
The Jewish nation of Israel stands accused in the dock of international justice. The charges include being a criminal state, the prime violator of human rights, the mirror image of Nazism, and the most intransigent barrier to peace in the Middle East. Throughout the world, from the chambers of the United Nations to the campuses of universities, Israel is singled out for condemnation, divestment, boycott and demonization.
- ^ Dershowitz, Alan (2009). The Case Against Israel's Enemies: Exposing Jimmy Carter and Others Who Stand in the Way of Peace. pp. 1–2.
For a tiny nation of little more than six and a half million citizens living in an area roughly the size of New Jersey, Israel has proportionally more enemies than any nation on earth. No nation has been threatened more often with divestment, boycotts, and other sanctions. No nation has generated more protests against it on college and university campuses. No nation has been targeted for as much editorial abuse from the worldwide media. No nation has been subjected to more frequent threats of annihilation. No nation has had more genocidal incitements directed against its citizens. It is remarkable indeed that a democratic nation born in response to a decision of the United Nations should still not be accepted by so many countries, groups, and individuals. No other UN member is threatened with physical destruction by other member states so openly and with so little rebuke from the General Assembly or the Security Council. Indeed, no nation, regardless of its size or the number of deaths it has caused, has been condemned as often by the UN and its constituent bodies. Simply put, no nation is hated as much as the Jewish nation.
- ^ Hagee, John (2007). In Defense of Israel. p. 1.
You look toward the United Nations, which Ambassador Dore Gold calls 'the Tower of Babble'. You look at Europe, where the ghost of Hitler is again walking across the stage of history. You open your newspapers and read about American universities, where Israel is being vilified by students taught by professors whose Middle Eastern chairs are sponsored by Saudi Arabia. You look to America's mainline churches and see their initiatives to divest from Israel. You go to the bookstore and see slanderous titles by the former president of the United States - and you feel very much alone.
- ^ "Domain Names and Web Hosting by IPOWER". Globalpolitician.com. Archived from the original on 2012-10-16. Retrieved 2014-08-18.
"Isnotreal" listed at Redirects for discussion edit
The redirect Isnotreal has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 30 § Isnotreal until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 07:36, 30 March 2024 (UTC)