Talk:Messi–Ronaldo rivalry

Overcategorisation

I have repeatedly removed this article from Category:Association football, Category:Sports rivalries, Category:Manchester United F.C., Category:Real Madrid C.F., Category:FC Barcelona and Category:FIFA Ballon d'Or per WP:CAT. It does not belong in the "Association football" or "Sports rivalries" categories, as it already appears in Category:Association football rivalries, which is a subcategory of the above two. It does not belong in any of the club categories as the rivalry between two individual players is not relevant to the clubs they play for, and it definitely doesn't belong in the "FIFA Ballon d'Or" category as the rivalry is not relevant to that award either. – PeeJay 12:09, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Seeing as the article highlights how the rivalry dominates media coverage of the games, and how these players are the fourth and first top scorer in the clubs histories, and have broken multiple records each during some of the clubs most successful periods of time, I'd suggest it is relevant to those clubs. And it is relevant to the Ballon d'Or too, as highlighted in the article, with them both dominating the award voting so much that they both decided not to vote for each other, showing how the rivalry crosses over into that as well. RealDealBillMcNeal (talk) 12:40, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

It's relevant, but not to the extent that the article belongs in categories about those clubs. It's a rivalry between individuals competing for similar awards and trophies. – PeeJay 16:01, 6 December 2014 (UTC) Messi is the best.

Reviewing this article and its revision history, I have a few points I'd like to address:

1. It appears to me this article is mostly composed of lists of each player's overall accomplishments, which could violate WP:NOTSTATSBOOK. To better illustrate the rivalry, it should probably include only head-to-head statistics, as the overall lists are better suited to each player's individual articles. An article on the rivalry between Barcelona and Real Madrid would rightly be included in those teams' categories, but this is an article about a rivalry between two players, not the teams on which they play. Please see WP:OVERCAT
2. That both players have dominated the FIFA Ballon d'Or of late does not mean that their rivalry is germane to the award, therefore this article does not warrant inclusion in Category:FIFA Ballon d'Or unless the rivalry can be tied directly to the award. Again, see WP:OVERCAT
3. As identified before, per WP:CAT an article that is listed in a category should not also be listed in parent categories. Thus, inclusion of this article in Category:Association football rivalries prohibits its inclusion in parent categories Category:Association football and Category:Sports rivalries, plus any further parent categories. Again, WP:OVERCAT
4. In addition to the repeated removals and reinsertions of the categories, I also saw a number of renamings of the article in the revision history, each listing the other player first; since Wikipedia requires WP:NPOV, these continued renamings are blatant violations of not only that policy, but also seem to violate WP:3RR. Whichever title was used when this article was created should be the title under which this article is maintained. Everyone involved in these edit wars may be in violation of WP:3RR, so I suggest a cooling-off period on this article.

I'd also like to point to Borg–McEnroe rivalry as an example of an article about a rivalry that I feel is well composed, since it focuses on their head-to-head results. -- Jkudlick ^tc_s 17:36, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

"Perceived" vs "Supposed"

I've edited the lead of the article several times to change the word "perceived" to "supposed" or "hypothetical" to indicate that the rivalry is assumed to be real amongst fans, journalists and possible other players, but isn't necessarily so (as stated by Messi and Ronaldo themselves). By definition, the word "perceived" means "(someone or something) interpreted or looked on in a particular way", so to say that the rivalry is "perceived" is an incomplete way of describing it; what exactly is it perceived as? By definition, the word "supposed" means "generally assumed or believed to be the case, but not necessarily so", while one of the definitions of the word "hypothetical" is "supposed but not necessarily real or true". Both "supposed" and "hypothetical" describe the rivalry more accurately than "perceived", so for me it's just a matter of a choice between the two words. Davykamanzi → talk • contribs • alter ego 01:57, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 October 2016

Nothing on Barcelona's 5-0 win in El Classico? Isn't that relevant in the rivalry as well? --5.12.249.185 (talk) 14:58, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

5.12.249.185 (talk) 14:58, 16 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. — Andy W. (talk) 05:48, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

I see little that does NOT violate WP:BLP

I see nothing here that does not violate WP:BLP. I suppose blanking the article would not be productive, but look alive, people. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:42, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Thinking it over, the routine stats probably don't violate WP:BLP. The rest of the article does. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2017

please update the no of goals messi and Ronaldo have hit in the champions league 49.207.187.54 (talk) 14:59, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

To what? JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not requested a specific change in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
More importantly, you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article. - Arjayay (talk) 11:51, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 April 2017

Ronaldo has 100 Champions League goals now following the Brace he score at the first leg and the hat-trick he scored on the second leg against Bayern Munich(BirialaGday (talk) 13:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)) BirialaGday (talk) 13:41, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

 Done Thanks! I updated it here. Is that where you wanted the change made? -- Irn (talk) 15:27, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2017

would like to obtain the permission to write some distinguishing fact between the two players that have ever exist in this planet Frankiewagg (talk) 11:13, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

@Frankiewagg: Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Murph9000 (talk) 16:55, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 02 July 2017

Please add the 2008 FA Community Shield to Cristiano Ronaldo in the Honours section. rtpanneal623 (talk) 18:35, 21 May 2017 (EDT)

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Notes about the article

• Most of the stats are redundant. Make the article impossible to read / navigate. And deem it useless in a way.

Either we remove the detailed stats altogether and leave only the summary stats. Or collapse most of the stats the way many football entries do.

• The season to season writeups are also extremely long.

• The real comparative subjects are completely absent.

Those are: Play style differences. Lots has been written about messi play being so different from Ronaldo. Which is not to say who is better. But is central to the issue, and interesting in its own right. Personal differences. Ronaldo is outgoing, active on social media and combative. Messi is introverted and not very visible outside the field of play.

Of course, covering the personal aspects objectively is a challenge. But this is part and parcel of the subject. Jazi Zilber (talk) 16:24, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

Why not Ballon d'Or award in Players Honours?

Why Ballon d'Or award is not included in Player Honours?. This award has been the most important individual award for years, and in others footballers player pages is included as part of Player Honours, like Zinedine Zidane, Marco Van Basten, Michel Platini to name just three. And in those pages are both awards listed, FIFA World Player of the Year and Ballon d'Or.

Ballon d'Or was included in this page before yesterday The Best FIFA Men's Player (October 23 2017), and now there is a message "FIFA AWARDS ONLY", why?.

Even in this same page, in "Awards and records" there's a section for Ballon d'Or.

Should we take off Ballon d'Or of all other winners pages too? I don't think so, so then why is not here?

Is the criteria different for this page and others players pages? Mijcofr (talk) 19:50, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

Not now, since for weeks or months that message is there but I agree with you. It is't even coherent since it mentions them in the other parts of the text.

Player Honours

Hi, I can see that you show all of the player honours. In my opinion, Wikipedia should only show the player honours that the player is credited with. Messi does not have 32 trophies as Wkipedia claim on this page, he has 31. He was not awarded the 2005 Supercopa, and the list should therefore not show it as a honour. The same with Ronaldo. It says that he has won 26 trophies in total, but he has only been awarded with 24. He was not awarded the 2008 Community Shield, nor the 2016 UEFA Super Cup. The original Wikipedia page for both players show only the trophies that the player is awarded with, and I think it should be the same here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erik0609 (talk • contribs) 14:29, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• FIFA Club World Cup.svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. Community Tech bot (talk) 12:51, 23 June 2018 (UTC)

Notable expert/authoritive opinions?

Why not have them? Citations from the likes of Sir Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger, Diego Simeone, Maradona and others. --Ruhubelent (talk) 01:47, 8 January 2020 (UTC)

Number or trophies

Messi has way more than 37 senior trophies, especially now that he has won the WC. Please change it from 37 to 42 (the number given by most authoritative sources). 212.3.199.87 (talk) 10:01, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Messi winning the rivalry

Leave the section about Messi winning as it is—a number of experts/critics have alleged that Messi has won the rivalry following the World Cup victory, but that doesn’t mean the debate is comprehensively resolved.

Going in any other direction is biased. I see a number of Messi fans trying to claim his superiority as objective, and a number of Ronaldo fans trying to suggest within the article that those claiming Messi is the greatest are ‘Messi’s fans’. Please stop this. Mazedriver (talk) 08:25, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

If you’re new to Wikipedia, I suggest that you read the articles on neutrality and omitting your personal opinion.

If there is a number of reputable sources and football pundits claiming that Messi is not the greatest post-World Cup due to the 5 penalties, you are welcome to add them to the discussion. Mazedriver (talk) 08:34, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Seems biased

I think it should be added that "Messi Fans" state he won the Rivalry. There's an equal number of sources still claiming Ronaldo is the GOAT. As well as pundits, fans and critics. 71.9.141.71 (talk) 01:42, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Delete the last paragraph.

Are we going to add all the Journalists, Pundits and Experts that say "Ronaldo is Finished"? This a ridiculous last paragraph, it literally cites Rob Usry a freelance journalist from Georgia, United States, who is NOT an expert, and it cites "the hindustani times"? What kind of sources are these? Along the sources is Declan Rice and Jamie Carragher (One pundit). Then another source lists "Shilarze Saha Roy" can anyone tell me who Shilarze Saha Roy is? And Fox Sports? Really?

Again this is an EDITORIAL opinion and should not be given WP:UNDUE. I could find many "sources" of people saying Ronaldo is the Goat. Logically it doesn't even make sense Ronaldo is from a country with 8-10 million people. Messi from a country with 80 million people. Never before has their been sensationalist editorial claims put on a Wikipedia page. This is outrageous 71.9.141.71 (talk) 06:40, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

You are clearly overly invested in this. Fox Sports, ESPN, and many others whose pundits have named Messi as the greatest are perfectly reputable sources.

One could similarly list football legends such as Neymar, Ibrahimovic, Guardiola, and numerous others who have alleged this after the World Cup—the same cannot be said for Ronaldo. Take your personal opinion out of it and see what 90%+ of sources are saying post-World Cup—it’s not that difficult. Mazedriver (talk) 08:31, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay so Ad-Hominem is allowed on Wikipedia, got it. I think your more invested in this if you are acting like a Gatekeeper 24/7 for editorial opinions, and giving WP:UNDUE weight to editorial opinions. ESPN does and did not say Messi was the Goat, as a matter of fact FIFA stated Pele was the goat. Espn has a variety of opinions - none of them are unanimous, like any sports journalists organisation with any integrity have. They're are refrences from ESPN that say Messi did not settle the goat debate among them -

There also plenty of credible players and pundits who have said that is Ronaldo is the goat, Pele for example

What would Pele know though?

Mpabbe also still thinks Ronaldo is the Goat

What would he know though?

Muller also thinks Ronaldo is the Goat

There's also many people on ESPN who have varying opinions on it.

If Messi "settled the Goat Debate" then AT least put credible sources to back up that claim not the Hindustani times and Rob Usry .

Also ESPN deleted their tweet that the "Goat Debate was settled". Why would they do that? If it was official that it was settled? Maybe playing for the 2nd best team in the World while being awarded 6 penalties is not enough to settle the goat debate?

All I'm asking for is a few credible sources for people with actual weight in the football world.

71.9.141.71 (talk) 05:44, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

lol The Sun. All my warmest wishes, ItsKesha (talk) 18:57, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Eurosport and Fox Sports, among many other sources. Again, take yourself and your own opinion on penalties out of this if you want to meaningfully contribute on here.

This is not an "editorial opinion", because the phrase "a number of commentators and pundits have opined that Messi is the greatest" is a factual statement based upon the cited sources. An "editorial opinion" would be saying "Messi is the greatest", which no one would advocate for. Mazedriver (talk) 21:22, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

References

2023 friendly

Mideast January friendly. 41.58.61.26 (talk) 17:55, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Done anyway, thanks 41.58.61.26 (talk) 23:38, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

'Winning' the rivalry

Would again suggest to stop deleting the final paragraph of this page, which has reached consensus among the main editors. If you disagree that there are enough credible sources claiming that Messi has won the rivalry post-World Cup, discuss on the talk page first. Deleting entire paragraphs that dozens of other editors have contributed to, without any source citation/reference or justification, is incredibly against the spirit of Wikipedia.

Most importantly of all, the paragraph states that "a number of pundits and commentators have opined that Messi has won", not "Messi has won". The first is an indisputable fact based upon the referenced sources, the second is an arbitrary extrapolation. Please keep that in mind. Mazedriver (talk) 21:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I think your too invested in this, that's a 3rd person you told that too, multiple Wikipedians have deleted the last paragraph or wish too add context too it. As I am not logged in, I can not. The sources are bad to begin with, no consensus has been reached. Again the Hindustani times and Rob Usry are not good sources. Maybe an official statement from ESPN or FIFA, or someone with ::more credibility otherwise it seems like a lot of UNDUE:WEIGHT

71.9.141.71 (talk) 21:23, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Firstly, Eurosport and Fox Sports are perfectly reliable sources, whose commentators have named Messi the greatest. Secondly, what relevance does 'consensus' have here? The paragraph doesn't state that there is 'consensus' on Messi being the greatest, it simply states that 'a number of commentators and pundits' have expressed this opinion after the World Cup. Mazedriver (talk) 21:26, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

The problem I have with this sentence is that it states that according to some pundits Messi has won the rivalry when a rivalry can simply not be won. He can win the debate of who is better or has achieved more. But a rivalry per se cannot be won. It's as simple as that. Tkotw12 (talk) 21:32, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I think that's a fair point, I will go ahead and make the corresponding edit to the sentence, and we will see if other editors of the page agree. Mazedriver (talk) 21:35, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Consensus in regards to Wikipedian Editors, first of all the statement is nonsensical

"After Messi led Argentina to victory in the 2022 FIFA World Cup and Ronaldo's subsequent transfer to Saudi Arabian club Al Nassr, a number of football critics, pundits, and experts have opined that Messi has won the ongoing rivalry between the two players"

It goes on list sources as the following : The Hindustani Times, Rob Usury, Roy Shilarze, And England Stars.

How many of those are "Experts, Football Critics or Pundits" You have a lone American journalist from Georgia. The Hindustani and opinions from some English players. None of those qualify as "Experts", secondly no where in ANY of the soruces do they mention "Messi won the Goat Debate because Ronaldo subsequently transferred to Al-Nassr". This is equvilant of twitter users creating an Anti-Ronaldo or Anti-Messi hastag and then it catching along with Journalists and listing that as a source.

71.9.141.71 (talk) 21:39, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

That's a fair point, I will make sure to add references from Fox Sports and Eurosport to secure more reliability. Mazedriver (talk) 21:40, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

That's a good point indeed. Ronaldo's decision to join a Saudi-Arabian club with 37 had nothing to do with this at all. Messi's World Cup win alone, which is still very fresh on people's minds, was the reason for the so called pundits' statements. Tkotw12 (talk) 21:49, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

That's fair, although a number of professional players and pundits have also cited the Al-Nassr transfer a part of the reason, which I have now referenced in the article sources. Mazedriver (talk) 21:54, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

I would strike out the word "Expert" otherwise I agree with the statement perhaps list "players" instead and the sources listed. Most of these sources, like Douglas McIntyre are columnists or journalists 71.9.141.71 (talk) 22:10, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Good point, I have revised the language as per your comment to make it more neutral. Mazedriver (talk) 22:48, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2023

{{subst:trim|1=

}please can i edit this thing} 203.206.87.142 (talk) 04:02, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone may add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Cannolis (talk) 04:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)