Talk:Cobra Crack

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Cobra Crack/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Aszx5000 (talk · contribs) 21:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Arconning (talk · contribs) 17:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

I will be reviewing this, comments will probably be finished in the next 72 hours! Arconning (talk) 17:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

@Aszx5000 Here are my comments for now. Hope they can be addressed! Arconning (talk) 14:04, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks so much for that @User:Arconning, I have made them all with just one question on paraphrasing the quote from Trotter. Much appreciated. Aszx5000 (talk) 15:25, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Prose and MoS

Lead and infobox

• Remove sourcing for "Grade", "First ascent", and "First free ascent", as they are all mentioned in the body.

 Done

• Please mention the location of the climb in the body and source it there instead rather than the infobox.

 Done

• After repulsing many leading climbers – most notably by Swiss climber Didier Berthod in 2005 – Canadian climber Sonnie Trotter made the first free ascent in 2006. , replace repulsing with something more formal, then replace the endashes with commas.

 Done

• 5.14b (8c) , add comma at the end.

 Done

History

• Wikipedia:Proseline. Probably integrate the years within the paragraph rather than at the starting point.

 Done, I had to re-word the first paragraph's two lead sentences to make it flow

• free the route, I'm guessing this refers to free climbing? Hyperlink if so. Also reword to "free climb the route".

 Done, and hyperlinked

Route

• The route has an abrasive surface, add comma at the end.

 Done

• circa 30 metres, circa 45 degrees, use a c. template.

 Done

• extremely difficult (and painful), remove parenthesis.

 Done

• The technical crux, is crux a climbing term? If so, hyperlink as well.

 Done

• In 2006, Trotter said: "The redpoint crux comes over the lip on a slippery side pull; the feet are next to nothing, and it takes momentum and a huge throw to latch the final edge, at which point you're about 15 to 20 feet about your last piece of gear—it's really exciting"., I think you should paraphrase the quote.

 Not done, Trotter is a major figure in climbing, so I though it was good to quote his reaction, i.e. direct "from the horse's mouth" so to speak? If you feel strongly however I can paraphrase? thanks

That's fair.

Legacy

• beautiful as ever"., put period within the quotes as it's stated as such in the source.

 Done

Ascents

• Would like to know why there are two 1sts mentioned.

 Done, clarified that the first one was as a aid climbing route, but the rest are free climbing

Filmography

• Year before role, "Documentary (2005), Director”. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lists of works#Filmographies

 Done

• Add endash at the end to break up notes. First Ascent: The Movie (2005), Peter Mortimer. Sender Films. ASIN B000IWPP4G. – Documentary with Didier Berthold.

 Done

Images

• Images have proper licenses, relevant.
• Probably change the first image's caption to "Crack seen from the ground".

 Done

Refs

• Manual check, everything seems okay.
• Earwig picks up quotes, pass.

Spotchecks

• Random references check, 5, 14, 18, 24, all seem good.

Misc

• No ongoing edit war, article is focused and broad on the topic being discussed.

Good Article review progress box

Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 talk 22:32, 13 August 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

Climber standing at the distinctive 'Cobra' silhouette groove at the start of the Cobra Crack

• ... that when Didier Berthod failed to make the first free ascent of Cobra Crack (pictured) in 2005, he quit climbing and became a Franciscan monk, but returned in 2024 to make the 20th ascent?

• Source: Climbing Mazine, PlanetMountain

• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Joseph Tetley

Improved to Good Article status by Aszx5000 (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 5 past nominations.

Aszx5000 (talk) 13:57, 23 June 2024 (UTC).

• Article has achieved Good Article status. No issues of copyvio or plagiarism. All sources appear reliable. Hook is interesting and sourced. QPQ is done. Looks ready to go. Thriley (talk) 03:01, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Berthod's becoming a Franciscan monk is not mentioned in the article Aszx5000. Personally, I would be inclinde to remove the last nine words of the hook per WP:DYKTRIM. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:13, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
    • @AirshipJungleman29:, I have added his vocation to the article now; no problem trimming but I think the fact that he returned to ascend it is a great part of the story (and hook)? Aszx5000 (talk) 16:24, 15 July 2024 (UTC)
      • @AirshipJungleman29: Have your concerns been resolved? Z1720 (talk) 17:24, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
        • Yes. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 17:25, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
        • Aszx5000 A few things need to be rephrased per Earwig. Even little parts like "the first free ascent" and "one of the hardest crack climbs in the world" can, and should, be rephrased. Those are just two examples. SL93 (talk) 01:45, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
          • @Aszx5000: Please address the above. Z1720 (talk) 19:55, 31 July 2024 (UTC)
            • looks like it's been a week since comment, so, marking this one for closure. theleekycauldron (talk • she/her) 08:11, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

@BorgQueen:, @Theleekycauldron:. I am only back from my travels today and will answer this shortly. There is a simple explanation and it is just an understandable misunderstanding of climbing terms (e.g. first free ascent). But can you re-open and I will then respond? Sorry for the inconvenience. thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 08:59, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Very well. Re-opened. BorgQueen (talk) 09:34, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

@SL93:. Only back from my travels so responding to your comments above. The term first free ascent is a 'climbing term' and would never really be paraphrased. "Hardest crack climb in the world" is also a common phrase climbing as crack climb is also a climbing term (there are many climbing refs online using "hardest crack climbs in the world" - E.g. here, here). The other copyvios are from direct quotes that I have attributed to the author, and I wanted to use their statement for clarity. I hope that addresses your concern, but happy to discuss further, or take any reasonable action you feel is needed. thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 10:06, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

I will take your word for it. SL93 (talk) 16:50, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

Typo in source?

Hi Aszx5000, thanks for this article.

In the Trotter quote "you're about 15 to 20 feet about your last piece of gear" - is this a typo from the source? It would make more sense if it was "you're about 15 to 20 feet above your last piece of gear" (Eg)?

If so, use MOS:TYPOFIX "insignificant spelling and typographic errors should simply be silently corrected (for example, correct basicly to basically)" without bothering with sic? (If not, I'm just showing my ignorance of climbing terminology!) JennyOz (talk) 10:35, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Very good sport @JennyOz. That should be "above" but Trotter's quote uses "about". If have put [above] in to clarify it, and hopefully that works. thanks for that. Aszx5000 (talk) 11:17, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

That looks better, thank you. JennyOz (talk) 11:46, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

MOS:ITAL

Why is Cobra Crack written in italics? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:21, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

During the Dreamtime (climb) GA review, it was suggested that the title should be italic per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Titles of works, so I also applied it to this article for its GA review. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:11, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

What wording there applies to a Climbing route? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:12, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

A climbing route is not a title, therefore no italics seem called for. We don't put other geographic features into italics, why should we make an exception here? Gawaon (talk) 20:33, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I can't find anything in MOS:TITLE that would apply italics to this article (or to Dreamtime (climb) either). Climbing routes are not works of art or artifice, which is what the guideline is about. Schazjmd (talk) 20:40, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

It is common for the main climbing media to also use italics for the names of climbing routes, such as here with Climbing, the biggest climbing magazine. Aszx5000 (talk) 21:00, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

But nothing in the MOS? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

The magazine and this project have different styles. For example, Climbing uses title case for headings; Wikipedia uses sentence case. Can you find anything in Wikipedia's manual of style that supports italics for the name of a climbing route? Schazjmd (talk) 21:10, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

Fwiw, here's 3 publications that doesn't use italics for this route:[1][2][3] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:15, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

I can find examples of the use of italic names - and the non-use of italic names - in all the best regarded climbing media (per WP:NCLIMB), although I now see that Climbing (biggest of them all) has become more standardized about using italic titles.

Personally, I don't have strong views either way about italic titles for Wikipedia articles on climbing routes, although it might be useful to distinguish it from any literal translation of the climbing route name, which is what I guess is behind the use of italic?

It is however very helpful to use italic names in the body of climbing articles as otherwise the name might need to be in some kind of quotes (" " or ' '), to avoid a confusing sentence? thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 12:27, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Personally, taking this article as example, I see no confusion added by de-italicizing Cobra Crack, it's not any different from other articles on geographical features. What was confusing to me when I saw the DYK (congrats, btw) was that it was italicized. As a WP:OTHERCONTENT comparison, is it confusing that Old Man of the Mountain doesn't italicize the subject name? Or Burma Road (Israel)? In this specific case, however, I think some "Cobra Crack", about 10 in-text non-quotes, should be replaced with "the route" of similar.

All in all, I see no WP-good reason to ignore the MOS in this context (climbing routes). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I understand that in the climbing community routes are often italicized, perhaps because they are thought to constitute a work of art, or just for emphasis, but that is not the standard on Wikipedia. See WP:SSF. This has been discussed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting/Archive 5#Italics for names of climbing routes, Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 157#Italicization of climbing routes and probably other places, but there has been no consensus for italicization of climbing routes on Wikipedia. SchreiberBike | ⌨  00:40, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Ping @SMcCandlish who has commented on this before. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 06:53, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Wow, I didn't realize that this had been a specific discussion point in the past. See my response above (particularly about being helpful in the body of articles to avoid confusion, or having to use alternative methods). thanks. Aszx5000 (talk) 12:30, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Capitalization of route names almost always solves that confusion, good writing eliminates the rest. SchreiberBike | ⌨  11:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Don't italicize, per GGS, Gawaon, Schaz, and SB. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

I was pinged here by Gråbergs Gråa Sång. I have been collecting books about climbing and mountaineering since the 1970s and italicization is inconsistent. For example, Fifty Classic Climbs of North America italicizes names of routes, but books by Pat Ament about rock climbing history do not italicize. A funny quirk is that our article about the book renders route names in bold not italics, while our article about Ament italicizes his routes.It is clear that there is no consensus to italicize route names, either in mountaineering literature or on Wikipedia, so italicization should be discouraged, I suppose. I have no interest in going around unitalicizing or unbolding, though. Cullen328 (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

As before, don't italicize. WP has its own style guide, which spells out what purposes italics are used for here, and this is not among them. WP doesn't care at all what some other publication has as their internal house style. We don't follow their house style, they don't follow ours. This is not something near-universally italicized in reliable sources and subject to a published standard to italicize it, as is the case with (e.g.) the scientific bi- and tri-nominals of animal and plant species. WP has no reason at all to make some "magical exception" here and impose italicization to just make a couple of editors happy that they get to inappropriately emphasize something when real-world writers do not consistently do this. Cf. also MOS:SIGCAPS: the principle behind it (do not over-stylize as a form of "signfiication" emphasis) applies to abusing other style than capitalization, be that italics, or colored fonts, or ALL-CAPS, or whatever. Absorb the general MoS principles instead of trying to find loopholes and backdoors to sneak in excessive stylization that does not serve reader interests. The entire gist of MoS is "do not over-stylize", so by default there is no exception to apply; the default is to not do something special stylistically, unless and until it is proven to be a norm across English-language writing, and/or WP has a special need for it for WP-specific purposes. The burdern of proof is always on those who want to specially style something, and that burden has not been met here. Not now, and not the previous times this has come up.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:44, 25 August 2024 (UTC)

Based on the above discussion, I've suggested that WikiProject Climbing changes its Wikipedia:WikiProject Climbing/Article recommendations " Route names should be italicized" at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Climbing#Suggesting_a_change_of_WP:WikiProject_Climbing/Article_recommendations. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:12, 26 August 2024 (UTC)