Talk:Cincinnati/Archive 3

History (Native American)

Although Cincinnati is rich with Native American history (Adena, Hopewell, Shawnee and I think some Cherokee incursions as well as other cultures that I don't know about)there is absolutely no mention of Cincinnati's history of the Native Americans who lived here, their culture, their influence on the fledgling city, and their remains (such as burial mounds and forts and villages)); they are a part of Cincinnati past and present and should be acknowledged. It would be greatly appreciated if someone would please add a paragraph about this to this article's history section. I am not a historian, so I am requesting that someone with better credentials than I please gift us with their knowledge. Thank you!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.239 (talk) 03:52, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

We should have at least some mention of the Native American's who inhabited the land where Cincinnati is now situated (such as the Shawnee, Adena, etc), we just totally skip over them in the History of Cincinnati, Ohio article and in this main Cincinnati article. I'll see what references I can round-up and then try to edit something into the article but I am by no means a historian (although I did take the U.S. History tract of classes in college). To not even mention these people, whose evidence is still visible in the area (earthworks, mounds, some current roads, such as Ridge Road, that were old "Indian Trails" -which honestly provided a substantial part of the initial infrastructure of land-travel in the Cincinnati, etc), would be a dishonor at the very least. -p.s., the above was originally noted by me but I forgot to sign-in and sign edit. --Paulsprecker (talk) 13:33, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

It's funny. I just came here looking precisely that information & was about to post a comment inviting someone to add it. I'm glad you have some. Now it just needs to be included. Edit boldly! Please put that in. It's rather appropriate. Join the fun! --Duemellon (talk) 01:08, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

There is a List_of_Cincinnati_neighborhoods, with appropriate wiki links, as well as a category for Cincinnati_neighborhoods. Surely we don't need to list every neighborhoor in this article as well. Please let me know if I am mistaken. Pzavon 02:38, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

This section is no longer in existance. Borg Sphere (talk) 16:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Flags

Deleted flags as per this diff, this article WP:FLAGS, this debate, and this admin. One down, umpteen thousand to go. Pedro |  Talk  21:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Law Enforcement and Crime?

As a visitor to Cincinnati several times over the years to visit family and friends, I wonder if this topic is necessary. Having lived in a few of the country's largest cities (San Antonio, St. Louis, Oakland, and Atlanta), surely race relations cannot be that much more escalated than other comperably-sized towns. Race relations of any ethnicity can appear particularly strained with unfortunate incidents, especially by those who choose to incite the anxiety or violence (i.e.: L.A. riots). Don't get me wrong - there's plenty of blame to go around with how we relate to each other - That's the general ambience around the entire United States. It's something we all need to keep working on (inside AND outside of the U.S.). But when it comes to Cincinnati, I'm just not hearing, reading, or witnessing any of the difficuties stressed in the tone of this article. Civil disorder can erupt everywhere there is injustice...and is sometimes necessary. It's simply unfortunate to cast a shadow over an entire city and its rich history because of concerns and problems that occur in most every major city.

As a lifelong resident, I must agree... it's not great here, but there's also a lot more intermingling than people think, especially outside downtown. It's just the 2001 riots downtown that skewed everything.--kubfann 03:31, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. This article seems unnecessary. This is a snapshot critique. Many factors lead to actions that both citizens and police take. It's terribly unfortunate, but really, a nationwide problem.

It is necessary. The riots made national news for some considerable time. It is an important part of it's history. Beyond that, it's been a major focus of every mayor as of late. This isn't just an article for outsiders, it's an informational piece. It should remain. The "necessity" isn't related to the "value" nor the relevence. --Duemellon (talk) 11:32, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Top picture

Is there anyone else how thinks the opening picture needs to be replaced or at least cropped? Angry Aspie 18:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't have any problem with it. Pzavon 02:45, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

In fact, I believe it should include the few buildings in Northern Kentucky-- as it is part of the urban core. Lanskeith17 05:51, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I personally feel that the picture is particularly ugly and doesn't represent the beauty of the River or region. Also, some of the development in Covington, Ky SHOULD be included in the photograph, as one day there will be twin cities sitting on the Ohio River. Hell, Covington and Kentucky development is partially-responsible for the breath of new life Cincinnati is experiencing and could at least been seen. TomFitzGerald 22:00, 16 August 2007

Census Data

When I go to the cited links for census data I don't find the numbers on the page. The numbers need to be fixed. pw 21:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I know what you are saying, this is kind of messed up here because it says "As of 2007, Cincinnati's population was 368,868?" Where did this information come from. If you take a look on the census list for 2006 at the web link here[1], It shows that Cincinnati's population is 332,252.--OHWiki 23:36, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I updated the census data for 2006 along with references.--OHWiki 02:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Nice, thanks. pw 02:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The population density doesn't match up at all with the square miles and population of the city. With the numbers that are currently listed, the population density would be 4174 people/sq. mi. After looking at the other comments for this section I'm quickly losing faith in the data provided here. 74.128.151.154 (talk) 17:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Enquirer cites / links

The enquirer archives older articles to this website. A few of the links on here didn't work anymore, and the cites did not contain the article titles or any way of finding them. I'm going to try the Wayback Machine to see if I can find more info on them. But please, in the future, use proper citation methods for enquirer articles and include titles and other info to be able to find the article (see Template:Cite news or Template:Cite web). pw 14:10, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

One other thing on the archived enquirer articles, they are not free to view. I'm not sure how this is typically handled, but if you use a proper news cite it would be easy enough to get them at the library, so thats probably the best method. pw 14:12, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The Enquirer has a robots.txt file that excludes the site from the Wayback Machine. Articles from before their latest redesign are generally still online. For anything newer than that, PLCH patrons have free access to NewsBank. [2] NewsBank usually lists a direct-access URL at the end of each article, so you can replace the enquirer.com URL with that. This assumes the citation here included the title and date of the article; otherwise you won't be able to find the article on NewsBank. If you're not a member of NewsBank, just send me a list of the citations you need updates for, and I'll try to figure them out. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 22:46, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Niknames (again)

User 199.173.226.236 seems to insist that both "Queen City" and "City of Seven Hills" be included as niknames in the infobox for this article. I disagree and will be reverting that change again. The Seven Hills nikname is "controversial" because the city now has many more than seven hills (see the voluminous discussion on that point on the discussion page). I would also suggest that "Queen City" has the highest profile among the niknames. Therefore it should be the one listed in the infobox. If we list two there, why not three, four or twenty? Seven Hills and others are addressed in the Niknames section, so it is not being ignored. Pzavon 00:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

MAJOR CHANGES

I was going to make major changes on the page by updating the words used in the articles to be more up to date and appealing, and add and change picturtes of buildings. I also was going to combine such pages as fountain square and create a chart listing all the sports.The last time I tried this it was all set back the way it was before I did it,is there a way to make a major change permanet. Please tell me and if possible email me. comment added by Meckstroth.Jm 07 October 2007 (UTC)

As I said before I am going to make the page more appealing. Please see Boston's page I want it to kind of resemble that page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Meckstroth.jm (talk • contribs) 22:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

I am going to take out the nicknames section and eventually(very soon) create a seperate page for it- (Meckstroth.jm 12:59, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

In response to all of Meckstroth's changes: I'm concerned about the vast scope of the changes, made without prior discussion on the talk page. I'm not trying to say that I own the page, or that these changes are altogether unacceptable: it's simply that there are so many of them, and they are so significant, that they should be discussed here and have time for discussion first. Nyttend 15:32, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Some of the changes included removal of cited statements, the inclusion of possible copyright-vio images, and the mass mergings of the article. I would appreciate for a discussion on the proposed changes to occur first, so that there is ample time to comment and/or review the changes. Meckstroth, your contributions are very much welcome but please slow down :) Seicer (talk) (contribs) 15:42, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Discuss changing something back before doing so I worked hard to condese it making it easier to read!!!!!!!!!!(Meckstroth.jm 17:16, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You also removed much sourced information. What is "RRR"? Seicer (talk) (contribs) 17:33, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

You should discuss changes before you make them. You took out the bulk of the article. The parts you took out were the needed parts. Cincinnati is not Boston (citing something you said above) so they shouldn't have identical pages.--Cincydude55 18:57, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

After reviewing Meckstroth's edits, he split off Sister Cities into its own separate page -- which by itself is not notable and the seperate page only adds a click that is not needed. He also removed the entire Nicknames section because Boston does not have one. He also removed data on Race Relations and some crime statistics, replaced images with ones he thought he saw fit, uploaded a possible image vio, and made other cosmetic changes. Drastic edits like this are not always welcome -- especially when they involve mass content deletions that feature citations that are linked elsewhere in the page. It's always nice to be bold, but let's not go overboard. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I didn't want to make it identical to boston's. I just saw boston(and others, new york city to name one) was a featured article so I wanted to make some things like it.I took away the nicknames part to eventually after I finish a rough draft make an extended nickname page and put the link in "see also". This would make the article smaller. I agree it was stupid to tae out the sister cities. Yet I didn't put in images that I saw fit I updated them. The fountain image is of the new square and its more colorful. I am just trying to make the article more appealing so that one day it can be a featured article! Somethings you guys never did is make revisions, in many sections of the article you had the same thing twice. In Demographics with the charts, and in media you have a list of movies but you also had another section for movies. Many sections were the same or similar and should havce been combined. It was boring to read,I added colorful pictures to make it more fun. Sorry if I am only being mean I just love cincy I love, everything about it.Meckstroth.jm 00:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Please sign your comments, as described by others on your Talk page. I also support the idea that you should discuss major changes here before making them. That's probably why you work was reverted before. Pzavon 00:52, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry from now on I will discuis(spelled wrong) major changes just read the whole article please and see that I didn't take anything ot I combined articles. What are major changes' exactly? does it include changing a few words or a picture'?Meckstroth.jm 00:57, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, if it is a photograph, generally a comment in the edit summary can be left why the image needs to be replaced. For most times, however, a second image can be added with no consequence. If it is major shifts, such as moving Crime elsewhere, and etc., then a discussion should be started on the proposed changes so that it can be agreed upon or tweaked a bit. Since you were moving the nicknames to another section later on, it might be best to leave it on for the time being, and move it when it is appropriate (rather than have the lag, where some might assume (such as myself initially) that you deleted it outright). Hope this helps, Seicer (talk) (contribs) 01:08, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Is there anyway I can change the weather table back to the more colorful one I had made? Meckstroth.jm 20:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You could, but it's not as precise. If your source gives information no more precise than what your table has, it would be better to have the current, less colourful version. Nyttend 22:18, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Meckstroth.jm, one thing you could try is to create a draft version of your changes at User:Meckstroth.jm/Cincinnati, Ohio. That way you can solicit opinions before making merging it with the main copy. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 22:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

External Links

It seems to me the "external links" section is getting a bit carried away. Compare http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago#External_links This section should probably be heavily pruned or at least sorted into sub-categories. What is the policy regarding the purpose of an external links section of an article for a city? DaveMenninger 19:00, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Culled the links that violate WP:EL or were more appropriate for the sub-pages (e.g. a link regarding race relations should really be cited as a source, rather than as an external link; a link about the Cincinnati Enquirer should be on the Cincinnati Enquirer page). Seicer (talk) (contribs) 02:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

infobox nicknames

Someone is using Wikipedia to try to promote the use of the name Nati as a nickname for Cincinnati. Attempts to delete this false information has been unsuccessful. Attempts to clarify have not been successful. The term 'Nati is not used in Cincinnati. Not by the media, not by businesses nor residents. Indeed, a Google search finds no reference to the term Nati as a Cincinnati nickname [3]

Please allow a deletion of this non-existent reference to Cincinnati. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piedmontatl (talk • contribs) 17:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Que-Can asserts that "Cincy" is a nickname while I assert that it is an abbreviation. I believe it to be an abbreviation followoing a vatiaito of the rule for abbreviating that calls for retention of beginning and ending letters, while removing the center. The beginning of the name is "Cinc" the endy of the name is "i" not "y" but the sound of "y" in "cincy" is the same as the sound of an "i" and the net result is readilly pronouncable.

In any case, I don't thing this article needs a list of nicknames in the infobox. If Cincy, why not others? The "Queen City" is probably the primary nickname for Cincinnati and is NOT derived form it. I think the fact that it is not derived from the name makes it more clearly a nickname.

I invite discussion here, but will again remove 'Cincy" as a nickname in the meantime. Pzavon 02:08, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Please indent your replies, condense them (to the OP).

In reply: Using a general Google query does not constitute a reliable source nor one that can be verified. Citation has been given regarding the nicknames that link to credible sources. Perhaps Piedmontatl was doing a poor Google query, because my results produced plenty of newspapers, blogs, web-sites, etc. using the term "Nati" as a nickname to Cincinnati. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 19:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, looking at the text, the "nati" is not credibly sourced, unlike the other citations. I'll do an Access World News search tonight and plug one in. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 21:05, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I've looked at your Google inquiry, using the search term Cincinnati Nati, and most of the results are simply a duplication a of the word CincinNATI. As far as blogs and other websites are concerned, there is a blog called "the Nati," but that hardly gives credence to the term as an emerging nickname for the city. Indeed, Technorati does not even recognize the blog in its top searches, if at all.

No business, no retailer and the mainstream media does not use the term either. The term "The Nati" as a nickname is not used in Cincinnati, and is the product of a little-known blog, and should be removed from Wikipedia page. Piedmontatl —Preceding unsigned comment added by Piedmontatl (talk • contribs) 20:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

At least in the Greater Cincinnati area, "the 'Nati" is primarily known in association with the Don't Trash the 'Nati anti-litter campaign, which was advertised extensively a few years back. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 09:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Changes

I made some sections;sub-sections its own section to make the box at the top a little smaller so it was not taking up unneeded & unwanted room. This also made it easier to navigate. --Meckstroth.jm 16:41, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Like the new page setup it is alot easier to navigate,but I think we still need to add some newer pictures the city seal picture looks bad you can harly see it.I added a new picture for the skyline, it makes it look nicer and shows off the river,which is a big part of cincinnati's heritage--208.102.116.51 10:53, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I took off the nicknames section and made it is own page, putting the link in see also.I did this because it could be greatley expanded but because we already ave a nickname area in the infobox this section is really just taking up room in the form it is now in --Meckstroth.jm 16:36, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Octoberfest

We need to find a new Oktoberfest picture the one that is in use know shows the old fountain square so its extremely out dated and its to dark we need a brighter more colorful picture. --Meckstroth.jm 16:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:120px-Cincinnatiseal.jpg

Image:120px-Cincinnatiseal.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 19:05, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

This image should not have been deleted, but no fair use rationale was given. I've uploaded a replacement taken from the City of Cincinnati's website, along with a clearly stated fair use rationale. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 04:58, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:235647213 58b30f0ff2 m.jpg

Image:235647213 58b30f0ff2 m.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 20:30, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Move suggestion

Move to Cincinnati. The link to Cincinnati (disambiguation) will remain. Reason for move.

1. This is commonly done with other large cities with relatively unique names see Chicago or York.
2. It's less wordy.

--T. Anthony (talk) 00:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

It was not that long ago that this article was moved TO the current title from the simpler one being suggested. Personally, I prefer the stability and pattern consistency of leaving it the way it is. Exceptions only lead to confusion, in my opinion. Pzavon (talk) 04:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Not advised under Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities#Article naming conventions, whereas article names shall be the common name of the city, followed by the state. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 04:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

There use to be a nice looking photo of cincinnati at the top of this page. Who replaced it with the current hideous one and why? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.79.6.182 (talk) 13:53, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanksgiving Day Race

67.176.169.78 (talk) 22:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC) I am no expert at editing Wikipedia, so I put this on the table for someone else to edit and correct. Under the initial heading of Cincinnati, the third paragraph states that the Thanksgiving Day Race is the "second oldest race in the country". Under the "Culture" heading, first paragraph, the race is listed as the sixth oldest. Not from Cincinnati, so I leave it to someone else to determine which is correct, and to edit.

Reds

As explained in the Cincinnati Reds article, the current club is not the 1860s Red Stockings. That club disbanded after 1870. Its best players regrouped in Boston in 1871, calling themselves the Boston Red Stockings. Another Reds team joined the National League in 1876 and was dropped after 1880. Still another Reds team joined the American Association in 1882, and rejoined the National League in 1890. That 1882 team is the origin of the current team. The Reds' team history on MLB.com refers to the original Red Stockings as part of the Cincinnati heritage, but does not explicitly state that they are the same actual team; which they can't, because they aren't. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:27, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

"Yes it is; No it isn't" won't work here.

The absence of entries for a period in a timeline, such as you describe, does not support or refute your assertion. It is merely a timeline with no entry for that period. Your claim is contrary to broad popular understanding and therefore it is your responsibility to provide relevant, verifiable citations to support your position, not simply to tell others to "read history."

I see the timeline at MLB.com (not an easy thing to find when starting from the home page) reports the Reds expelled from the National League in 1880, but elsewhere the MLB.com site lists their "First Year" as 1882. That does not compute. Something certainly needs more explanation than has been available from the references you've provided so far. Pzavon (talk) 01:59, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

The MLB.com site is not to be taken as a scholarly work. The current Reds first year was 1882. Cincinnati baseball had several false starts. Meanwhile, if you check the Braves history page on MLB.com, you'll see that they start by talking about their beginnings as the Boston Red Stockings, from the remnants of the Cincinnati Red Stockings, in 1871. Yet their timeline page on MLB.com doesn't begin until 1876, just because that's the year the National League was founded, replacing the National Association - but it was the same Boston team, just transferred to a different league (as with the Cubs, for example). Those remnants of the Cincinnati Red Stockings won the NA pennant for Boston in 1872-73-74-75 and were strong in the National League also. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:10, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

You are still making assertions, when what you need to do is provide verifiable citations to references that will support your assertions. It is my understanding that scholarly works are not the only acceptable sources for citations in the Wikipedia, but you do need something that directly supports your asssertions. Pzavon (talk) 02:16, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

I posted some new info on your page. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

As we had discussed, the fuller history of the Reds, as described in these links[4] [5][6][7] make it clear that the current Reds date from 1882, after several false starts. Also, Lee Allen's 1947 book about the Reds (of whom he was a lifelong fan) confirms that there were several separate teams prior to the current Reds' founding in 1882. Meanwhile, User:Cincydude55 has stated that the exhibits at the Reds own Hall of Fame confirm that the current team began in 1882. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I've personally seen the exhibits myself and can verify that. Seicer (talk) (contribs) 13:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Us-oh-ci.gif

Image:Us-oh-ci.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 02:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

advertisement for WCPO TV?

What is the value of having an image for WCPO TV? Why not another TV station? Why not Deja Vue strip clubs as it also provides entertainment to Cincinnati, I think?

My first impression would be to remove the image from the article. It is more suited to an article "Cincinnati Television Stations". BVande (talk) 17:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

SHALLOW - LACKS SUBSTANCE

This article is mostly a collection of pop culture trivia. It's also very unlikely to be NPOV. It reads like a travel essay. "Come to Cincinnati: it has the Bengals!". It needs much more objectivity and much more focus on more serious history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.137.70 (talk) 10:59, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with much of what you say, but since there is a separate article on the History of Cincinnati, I don't think this article needs to focus on "more serious history," especially if that implies the exclusion of other cultural, architectural, geographic, and political aspects. Pzavon (talk) 20:07, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Good! Maybe you can ... you know, actually edit it to add more substantive content? seicer | talk | contribs 01:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking into 2010

Re: "By 2010, the U.S. Census Bureau expects Greater Cincinnati to grow northward through the Miami Valley and merge with Greater Dayton resulting in a combined population of nearly 3 million, and becoming the 15th most populous region in the US." I suggest that para be removed as speculative and unnecessary for encyclopedic coverage of "Cincinnati, Ohio"? It is sourced, yes, but it's still IMO WP:FUTURE. And it has more to do with Cinci-Dayton, Ohio than Cincinnati, Ohio or Dayton, Ohio (where it also appears). -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Suggest you remove it form both articles. Pzavon (talk) 03:00, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of Cincinnati Neighborhoods Section

I seen that section was deleted. FWIW, I used Brooklyn's neighborhood information as a basis to create the Cincinnati section. My question is, why is Brooklyn#Neighborhoods OK but the Cincinnati section was not?

Pzavon's reasoning for deletion was .. "removing Neighborhoods Section per WP:NOT - Wikipedia is not a guidebook" .. or ..

Travel guides. An article on Paris should mention landmarks such as the Eiffel Tower and the Louvre, but not the telephone number or street address of your favorite hotel or the price of a café au lait on the Champs-Élysées. Wikipedia is not a place to re-create content more suited to entries in hotel guides, culinary guides, travelogues, and the like. Notable locations may meet inclusion criteria, but Wikipedia does not list every tourist attraction, restaurant, hotel, venue, etc. Such details may be welcome at Wikitravel, however.

— Wikipedia:NOT#Wikipedia_is_not_a_manual.2C_guidebook.2C_or_textbook

How did the neighborhood section fall into this definition? The section was not plugging hotels, it was not a culinary guide, it was not documenting my personal travels in the city, etc. It was a short description of some of the neighborhoods, though I admit not perfectly executed. I think with the reasoning Pzavon gave one could argue that any section describing a geographical location is "a guidebook."

I'm willing to compromise the section's content IF IT VIOLATES WIKIPEDIA'S GUIDELINES, but I think deleting the whole section as if it has absolutely no value to the article is absurd. Assuming that everything in the section violated the "no travel guide" rule is even more absurd IMO. That is, why not just modify the section to your liking?

I still think a rundown of the neighborhoods that make up Cincinnati would be useful. After all Cincinnati is far from a homogeneous city; rather, it's a whole made of up (sometimes) drastically different parts.

J.H (talk) 00:11, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree here. It isn't a travel guide. What about the Brooklyn or New Orleans' articles? They have neighborhoods lists. Why not Cincinnati? Burner0718 ^{Jibba Jabba!} 00:19, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Here is New Orleans' list, New Orleans neighborhoods Burner0718 ^{Jibba Jabba!} 00:21, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't follow the Brooklyn article so cannot comment on that question. However, if you read the WP:NOT section referenced and then read what was in the Neighborhoods section I took out I believe you will see that the Neighborhoods section was written in the style of a travel guide. I would add that there seems to be little opportunity for citations in that section as written and it is my understanding that Wikipedia is not to bepersonal research, but derived from other, published sources. This stuff seems to me to be more like expression knowledge. I think such material belongs in Wikitravel, not here. Wikitravel encourages writing from personal knowledge.

You don't have to follow the article, just read the section. I can agree with the "expression knowledge" point. I can change it to read more like an encyclopedia. You have a point and if you want references I can provide references. (Personally, I was hoping someone would try to improve the section rather than delete it! Just because the first draft isn't all that great doesn't validate deleting it. Would would Wikipedia be if that was the case?) However, what I want to stress is that THE SECTION DOES NOT FALL INTO WIKIPEDIA'S DEFINITION OF A TRAVEL GUIDE. Furthermore, other major cities have descriptions of neighborhoods. Why not Cincinnati? J.H (talk) 01:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

and by the way, Cincinnati does have a Neighborhoods list. It is a separate article and referenced in the See Also section. User:Pzavon|Pzavon]] (talk) 00:33, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

As does Brooklyn (i.e. List_of_Brooklyn,_New_York_neighborhoods). However, having a separate list of ALL neighborhoods does NOT mean the Brooklyn#Neighborhoods section provides no value to the Brooklyn article. A list provides little geographical value. J.H (talk) 01:01, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

As I said, I don't follow the Brooklyn article and will not attempt to comment on what may or may not be appropriate there. The Cincinnati section on neighborhoods read like a travelogue, lots of uninfomrative but colorful adjectives along with a description of which neighborhoods were adjacent to the one being descrbed at the moment. None of that seems to be able to be supported by a citation. Without the flourid adjectives, you have a wordy description of a map. Not particularly usefull, I think. If we must, let's put the map back and leave it at that. But the map is already present, appropriately, in each neighbood article. I would suggest that the efforts of those most interested in the topic of Cincinnati neighborhoods might be more productively spent in expanding the Neighborhoods of Cincinnati article to make it something more than a mere list of Wikilinks, preferably with text that carries citations and the like. Pzavon (talk) 00:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

There is currently a proposal on the table to amend the Wikipedia naming conventions for US cities to follow the AP Stylebook's suggested names. This would effectively move a number of US city articles currently on the list, so Cincinnati, Ohio would be moved to Cincinnati. To comment on this discussion, please go here. Dr. Cash (talk) 16:47, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Just in case you didn't notice. It was moved. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 02:45, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

Sawyer Point

Sawyer Point and the Serpentine Wall don't seem to have been mentioned at Wikipedia so far, not even in the Cityscape of Cincinnati, Ohio article. I haven't been down there in years, but maybe someone who has can write about it. – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 11:00, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Writing about it calls not for first hand knowledge, but published materials from which to draw and cite. Pzavon (talk) 19:49, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree that if these places pass aour basic rules at WP:N and verifibale, third party reliable sources can be found then anyone can create the article. Basing an article over just visitng it puts it under original research and would be deleted on those grounds. But again, if sources could be found online that are reliable then anyone could create the articles. (But then again, I think the OP knows all the policies like the back of their hand, and these are there for those whom they might be helpful) §hep • ¡Talk to me! 23:23, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The City Map is Wrong

The map indicating the city of Cincinnati (in red) and other political jurisdictions in Hamilton County (in white) is incorrect. The map incorrectly includes the Village of Lockland (just north of the eastern half of the Cincinnati neighborhood of Hartwell) as part of Cincinnati. Lockland is still an independent village, and shouldn't be included within the Cincinnati city limits. 96.11.231.210 (talk) 14:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Looks like you're right. I'm working on making an updated SVGPNG map. InkScape still won't work for me. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 18:33, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Before I make the change, do I need to make any modifications to File:Cincinnati.png? §hep • ¡Talk to me! 19:43, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

It looks good to me. Here's a good site to go to get official political map boundaries: http://cagis.hamilton-co.org/map/cagis.htm. I think the only portions that see any significant boundary growth (very small) are the western border with Green Twp. and the northern borders with Springfield Twp. 74.215.227.9 (talk) 17:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Implementing new map. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 22:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Nicknames

I was looking at what redirects here and found a few nicknames. Should any of these be mentioned? §hep • ^Talk 03:43, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Accent/dialect original research

With the exception of the commentary on "please," the entire section on dialect and accent leading off the "Culture" section is unsourced and not encyclopedic. The first unsourced claim is that Cincinnati residents have a specific regional accent, of which they are unaware or that they collectively deny. The supporting evidence about specific words is also not sourced, nor clarified in IPA.

I added citation needed tags, but maybe someone else wants to "be bold" and cut it or else source the claims. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.67.123.213 (talk) 22:23, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

I have gone through the revision history and found the revision where the unsourced claims were added. Yami Takashi added an entire paragraph without substantiation when claiming to merely substantiate his (true) "please" assertion. See here. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Cincinnati&diff=238863171&oldid=238833356 I am removing the unsourced claims about pronunciation altogether and rewording the "please" note for clarity. 71.67.123.213 (talk) 00:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Nicely done. Thanks for making the effort. Pzavon (talk) 03:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Cable Car line????

Are there any cable cars in Cincinnati Ohio? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.80.106.105 (talk) 17:57, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

No, but there is an effort underway to build a fixed line cable car terminating in the downtown area as well as some controversy surrounding the idea.71.67.123.213 (talk) 07:29, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Skywalk

The Cincinnati Skywalk hasn't been mentioned on any Cincinnati-related articles. There's just a brief mention at "Skyway". Not sure which article is most appropriate for the topic, though. Here's some sources, in case anyone decides to write about it:

• Downtown skywalk falls into disfavor
• Skywalk to Nowhere
• Rethinking Skyways and Tunnels
• Fast Life Along the Skywalks
• Skywalk to Grade

 – Minh Nguyễn (talk, contribs) 23:15, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

the meaning of Please in Cincinnati

I wasn't sure if the culture section was right or a new trivia section but i think its worth noting that Cincinnati and the Cincinnati area is the only place where people will say "Please" when they want something repeated. Yami (talk) 21:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I've removed this from the page, this doesn't seem to be notable, and isn't referenced at all. Dayewalker (talk) 22:17, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how Yami would know it's the only place, but it would square with the significant German population, as "bitte" means "please" and is used to ask for a repeat. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:20, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

The use of "Please" in Cincinnati to mean "please repeat" is a direct translation from the German and is indicative of the strong German influence in the city in the past. In that sense a note about this would be appropriate, in my opinion, in a culture section that actually talked about culture. But I agree, a source would be needed and is lacking at present. Pzavon (talk) 21:57, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I have heard it was the only place from two sources, my Speech teacher in college who was from Cincinnati, and a Episode of Threshold "Blood of the Children."

In the Sci-fi show Threshold, Peter Dinklage's character Arthur Ramsey a mathematics and linguistics genius interrogated a man (i believe it was a pilot of military officer) who he knew was from Cincinnati as the guy being interrogated had used the phrase "please" in this sense. Yami (talk) 23:19, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Its hard finding soruces on a word when it comes to the internet if it can't be made pornographic but i found this.

http://www.tv.com/threshold/blood-of-the-children/episode/444049/recap.html

Ramsey and Baylock interview the pilot of Flight 523 and determine that he's hiding something from the change in his dialect.

Please being used in the way of asking for something to be repeated is a Dialect.

I'll try to find a source but i think this is a notable dialect. If only a porn star from cincinnati said please in this form i might find it easier. The internet is not friendly to non porn searches. Yami (talk) 23:49, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Would this be a reliable source? http://citybeat.com/1999-09-16/cover3.shtml

This Cincinnati Beat reference looks like a reasonable source, although his discussion of the origin of the name "Old Coney" betrays his relatively recent arrival and a failure to ask others of longer residence in the area. I don't see anything relevent to this question in your first reference, the one from tv.com. Pzavon (talk) 01:41, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it's fairly easy to demonstrate that "please" is used for "please repeat" in Cincinnati. It would be much harder to prove that it's exclusive to Cincinnati. For example, Milwaukee has a pretty large German-American population too, ain-a-hey. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:47, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Bugs. Without some source saying it's unique to Cincy, I'm not sure it's notable enough for inclusion on the page. If it's just a regional saying, I don't think that makes it notable enough. Dayewalker (talk) 02:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The TV thing shows that it was the pilot's dialect that betrayed him. Do you actually think i could come up with a lie that Please? is only used in Cincinnati based on a website's decription of the thrid episode of a canceled show?

Unless you can provide proof that it exist in other places, i don't see how its not notable. Its part of Cincinnat's culture and my own.

I can only go by two sources that can't be reference that Cincinnati is the only place to use "please?" in this sense, but that's because one is a speech teacher from Cincinnati and one is a actor saying some lines in a show that was canned after 10 episodes back in 2005, by the network after they changed the time slot and ratings dropped.

Are any of you able to provide a source that says Please? is used anywhere else?

Also if its about notability giving it more then one reference remedies that. the more refrences the more notable. Yami (talk) 21:54, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

http://citybeat.com/2003-11-05/porkopolis.shtml

Yami (talk) 22:06, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Yami (talk) 22:06, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but if you make a claim of fact it is up to you to prove it, not up to us to disprove it. You can easily demonstrate that it's used in Cincinnati. Claiming it's used nowhere else would be pretty much unprovable. I could make the claim that "ain-a-hey" is used only in Milwaukee. It certainly is associated with Milwaukee, but proving it's not used anywhere else would be nearly impossible, and also pointless. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:04, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Well it would be used else where by people from the area, but not used in such quantities outside of Cincinnati that it would disqualify Please?" from being mentioned that it is primarily used in Cincinnati. Despite being German in origin like much of English, the use of "Please?" wouldn't be used in German in the same context as it is in Cincinnati. I doubt they would even say "Please?"" in such a manner. The original argument was that it would be used in other places because it comes from German but do you ever hear of cases where a German says "please?" in the context as it is used in Cincinnati?

Even people in Hamilton county, that don't live in Cincinnati can easily use the dialect if learned from those that are from Cincinnati and the general area. I've heard "Please?" used in Maiami Town, Hoven, Cleves (Not Cleveland,) Delhi. Harrison and the bits and pieces in the whole county.

People who migrate that were taught to use the dialect would still use it, and possibly pass it down to their children no matter where they live. I have relatives burn and raised in Kentucky all their lives, with parents and grandparents from Cincinnati that passed it down. It still comes from Cincinnati heritage.

Even if you hear it outside of Cincinnati its probably because the person has heritage or parental/other influences that came from Cincinnati.

The way Wikipedia works is you just have to prove, cite, and reference it. I have the sites to cite the cultural addition of "Please?" If we can't say that Cincinnati is the only place it is used because of people that migrate from there, then we can say people of the heritage use it. Yami (talk) 03:36, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the way wikipedia works is that you have to prove an assertion. You can easily demonstrate that it's often used in Cincinnati. Where's your evidence that it's only from Cincinnati and not from other large German-heritage cities such as Milwaukee and St. Louis? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:45, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Bugs here to a point, you'd need to reliably prove that Cincinnati is the only place that it's used. Honestly, even if this is unique to Cincinnati, I'm not sure that it's notable enough to include on the article. I'm not sure if any other articles on major cities have sections on regional dialect quirks. Dayewalker (talk) 04:28, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Bugs you are just being argumentative now. No where on the internet have i seen one article that says it's used anywhere else, German heritage or not. If it wasn't something used only, or at least to a high level in Cincinnati, then the articles i have found wouldn't even mention it or would have at least gave a few other places that uses it.

Unless you can find a site that talks about a place other then Cincinnati that uses it in large enough quantities that its part of their culture, or comes form their cultural heritage, then i don't see how you can't say its only in Cincinnati or is largely used in the Cincinnati area and people who have migrated from the greater Cincinnati area.

You have knowledge of where the word comes from. but you seem to not have knowledge to weather or not it is used in other places.

Multiple sites referencing the use of "Please?" Would count towards its notability. That is why you see 2 or more references for certain things in articles.

It just comes down to how we would word it in the article. If a site that says its only used in Cincinnati isn't found, then all we have to do it word it to please all parties. it could say something like this

With it's large German heritage and influence, Cincinnati natives have developed a dialect quirk with the use of the word "Please?." This use of Please takes its roots from the German Word "Bitte" which can be translated as both "please" and "excuse me." "Please?" is used as an abbreviated response for asking someone to repeat what has just been said.

It covers the basics of where the word comes from, and how it is used but doesn't explicitly say its only used in Cincinnati to the point where it needs a reference that might be impossible to get. The internet is not a user friendly place for any info that can't be shown next to a girl girl show. Its hard finding "Please?" in a search engine because of the mass usage of the word in everyday conversations and how its used to request things like "Please e-mail us" on almost every English page/article out there. I have searched in every combination i could think of but the word is just to widely use in other ways to narrow down the sites needed. I only found the sites i provided because i typed "Please? Cincinnati dialect" I did the same for St. Louis and Milwaukee and nothing so that should indicate enough that its retained to a certain area.

The use of "Please?" is apart of Cincinnati culture. Its used with the same concept as the phrase "I'm sorry?" or "sorry?" which are both used when you don't understand. I'm not sure where and how many places I'm sorry?" and "Sorry?" are used, but i know well enough where "Please?" is used. Yami (talk) 00:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

It's fair to say it's part of Cincinnati culture. Whether it's important enough to bring up is an open question. And whether it's used elsewhere is unknown, so you can't say it's only used in Cincinnati, unless you can find an authoritative source that says so. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:43, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

True, but whether or not it is used exclusively in the Cincinnati area or in a few other places doesn't have an extremely great bearing on its notability. In my experience, I've never heard "please?" used in that manner, but I'm from the West coast. Useight (talk) 03:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Finding a source on the internet for a word used by millions if not billions of sites is not a easy task. You have to type in certain words and pray that you get something like "Please?" Cincinnati Dialect Quirk or something like that. For the most part i can only go by what my Speech Teacher told the class, and what a show said in its third episode 7 episodes before the network changed the schedule and canceled the show because of the poor ratings in the new time slot. You have to realize that the internet doesn't always get you what you want, and the biggest problem with the internet is if its not porn your chances of finding it just got lowered severely. I've tried to look for Aurthur Ramsey and Cincinnati and it always wants to give me links to John from Cincinnati and the Cincinnati kid. Yami (talk) 03:52, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

What's the general consensus on the notability of this, even if we could find sources saying it's unique to Cincinnati? We're doing a lot of talking about this, but as I said above, I can't see it's notable enough for inclusion in a general article about the city. What do you guys think? Dayewalker (talk) 04:44, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

It seems trivial to me, on its own. There are several brief mentions in the article about the German heritage of the area. If there were a section specifically about that broader topic, perhaps it could be mentioned as a quirk of speech, minus the claim that it's unique to Cincinnati, since that can't be proven definitively. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:50, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Well if the claim of being unique to Cincinnati can't be satisfactorily claimed without a source, we can at least include the information and say that it is through the German heritage and influence that the word is coined for use in this context, and marginally identified as being used by Cincinnati. Yami (talk) 02:10, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Sorry Yami, I still disagree. Even if it were verifiably unique, it's still questionable in its notability. Without it being something unique to Cincinnati, it's just a quirk of dialect your speech teacher taught you. If you can find any similar quirks on other city pages, that would help show that there's a precedence for including regional speech patterns. Dayewalker (talk) 02:31, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

What part of "I'm from Cincinnati" didn't you understand? I wasn't taught by my speech teachwer and i have multiple sites and that would prove its notability. And what do you mean similar quirks. Do you mean like the people who use "I'm sorry?" or "Sorry?" when they don't understand soomething?

Back in june I settled a similar situation with the use of two references so i believe that two sites referencing this would be adequate enough for it to be included. Yami (talk) 04:54, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Please be civil. Where you are from does not matter, only what you can prove. Please respect the consensus here on the talk page, and address the issues. You haven't been able to show this is unique to Cincinnati. Simply showing that people in Cincinnati tend to say "please" doesn't indicate at all that it is unique to the city. Furthermore, you also haven't addressed the issue of notability by showing other instances where other cities' wikipedia articles also include quirks of their dialect. As for examples, I don't know of any other cities that have specific sayings that are unique to them included on their wikipedia page. Quite frankly I doubt such a thing could exist in isolation and stay a quirk of a single city, but if you find an example, I'd love to see it. Dayewalker (talk) 05:49, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

1: I was not being uncivil.

2: I did address the uniqueness, and told you that it would be to hard to find it saying its unique to Cincinnati on the internet because of the word involved. The word came from the German heritage factor of the city. Many places have large German influences and heritage, but the coinage of this word to be used in the fashion has thus far not been found to be mentioned in any other article accept those dealing with Cincinnati. This would indicate that it is so isolated that it would be unique enough to Cincinnati to gain mention of being used there but not other places. If no site can be found that says its used in another place then it must be unique enough to be awarded to Cincinnati or at least those affiliated with the city and area.

3: I already addressed the notability thing. Multiple sites add to the notability.

4: Other sayings in Cities do not have any barring on this.

5: Each Wikipedia article has its own way of addressing the info. The Cincinnati, Ohio article and its info is not presented in the same way as Milwaukee, Wisconsin article and Info. The article isn't going to have it unless someone took the time to put it there.

People born in Cincinnati Say "please?" to ask someone to repeat something just like a person in Milwaukee would say "Eh" like the Canadian "Heh" at the end of a sentence to add emphasis but the Milwaukee article isn't going say that until someone adds it. http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Yooper-dialect

Yami (talk) 23:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, so you can't claim it's unique unless you can find a reliable linguistic authority who asserts that. Multiple sites do not equate to notability. Anyone can put anything on the internet - multiple times. Canadians are known for saying "Eh?" a lot but that expression is by no means confined to Canada. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:42, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I just found this site which calls "Please?", used in this manner, "Cincinnati-speak". For what it's worth, I've been searching and searching for any information at all regarding the use of this idiom in other cities and have been completely unsuccessful. Useight (talk) 00:33, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

You can say it's used frequently in Cincinnati, you just can't say it's used exclusively, because you can't prove that. And there's still the question of whether this bit of language trivia is notable or not. "Ain-a-hey" is used prominently in parts of Milwaukee, but I don't see it in that article, because it's just not a big enough deal. Now, if there were an article about regional colloquialisms, then you might be on to something. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:46, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yami, just saying you read it somewhere online or your speech teacher said it, or you noticed it growing up doesn't make it unique, or even notable enough to be a part of the article. You said "Each Wikipedia article has its own way of addressing the info," which is completely untrue. Consensus seems to be completely against you on this one. Dayewalker (talk) 02:05, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I have two sites and Useight has a site, more sites = notability. Also i don't see where consensus has been made in a sense you can say "its against me". As for the "ain-a-hey" thing its not apart of the article because it's not been added yet, and you're not suppose to use other Wikipedia articles for references in the first place. Like if i was to go to the Pokémon article on Mewtwo, i couldn't put "a Creature that is part of a multi-billion dollar franchise ...." then put the main Pokémon article as its reference because it says at the top how much the franchise is worth. Same with the cancer article, if it talks about president Garfield (i think, it might be Cleveland) having a operation to remove some from his jaw, i couldn't use that to reference it in the President Garfield (Cleveland) article. You're not suppose to rely on other Wikipedia article because they can say anything, and that is why external sites are used for references.

Right now it seems the phrase is in the same pit as the internet. Cincinnati is claiming it as it's own, just like Al Gore has said or been said to have invented the internet. It's obviously being used enough in Cincinnati to be called Cincinnati-speak and no one else try to claim it. And its not really even a dialect quirk but a Idiom.

id·i·om [íddee əm]

(plural id·i·oms)

n

1. fixed expression with nonliteral meaning: a fixed, distinctive, and often colorful expression whose meaning cannot be understood from the combined meanings of its individual words, for example, “to have somebody in stitches”

2. natural way of using a language: the way of using a particular language that comes naturally to its native speakers and involves both knowledge of its grammar and familiarity with its usage

3. stylistic expression of person or group: the style of expression of a specific individual or group

4. arts distinguishing artistic style: the characteristic style of an artist or artistic group

[Late 16th century. Directly or via French idiome from late Latin idioma , from Greek , “property, peculiarity,” from, ultimately, idios (see idio-).]

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

In fact if my Computer's dictionary is right, the normal please just comes from [14th century. Via Old French plaisir from Latin placere (source of English placid and complacent).] Where "Please?" comes from German Bitte so There is one interesting thing to make it notable, similar words, but two different sources with two different meanings.

Really the word "Please?" is a mix between the German translation of Bitte into Please, and keeping the original broader definition form its source word Bitte. People in Cincinnati says "Please?" to request something to be repeated because they translated the word to English, but kept the German definitions of Pardon and such.

Unless you can find a page/article that says people in Chicago or somewhere else, adapted and translated the German word Bitte into the English language to be a short lazy way of requesting that the person your talking to repeat what they just said, then you have no case on how this isn't a notable addition to the culture section let alone not exclusive to Cincinnati or not exclusive enough to be mentioned.

There are many words out there that came from one source word, but has a different meaning then its cousins. Bitte translates into please, But i never heard a person mishear me and say "Bitte?" Can you prove that Germans will say "Bitte?" and nothing else when they misheard you? Can you prove that any german will say "Bitte" and not say "Bitte Wiederholen Sie" or "Wiederholt dass Bitte" ?

Its very nice you know where the word comes from and what it translates to, but that doesn't mean that it's meaning and the word it translates into is going be the same every where a certain heritage is, let alone be used in multiple places just because those places have the same race of people pouring into them.

The person(s) that adapted the word "Please?" from Bitte, gave it a new use that so far hasn't been mentioned to be used else where other then Cincinnati. 15 cities could have German heritage in them, but that doesn't mean that 15 cities will use the same phrase coined from a ancestral word. Cincinnati might have chosen to translate Bitte into please, added a ? so that it could be used to ask for something to be repeated, while in Chicago could translate the same word, but give it a different meaning and add ! making it "Please!" which is a translation on http://www.babylon.com/definition/Bitte English. Where Cincinnati has Please? Chicago could have Please!. For all we know it could have been coined to be used as a term of excitement or to contrast the use of Please?, be instead used to indicate that you do understand.

The point is the word could have translated multiple ways and given different definitions, but so far its been shown to have translated into a certain way, and confined to a certain area. Yami (talk) 02:25, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Al Gore's actual statement was, "I took the initiative in creating the Internet", which, as the article points out, is a largely true statement. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:49, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Section break

Holy crap, I neglect the talk page for a week and this happens?

I was discussing this topic with a blogger of German heritage yesterday of all things. He claims that "please" originated in Cincinnati's Over-the-Rhine due to the strong German immigration waves of the 19th century, but he had no reliable sources to back this up with. Or any sources that pens OTR with the origination of the word "please" over say... St. Louis or Chicago. seicer | talk | contribs 03:29, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of idioms around, which is why I think an article about that could be interesting. One isolated Milwaukee thing was that Joe Hauser was called "Unser Choe" by the fans ("Our Joe"). That merits inclusion in his article because it is well known and well documented. That doesn't mean that "unser" was never used in any city for some other purpose, though. There's a kind of funny midwestern expression that could be called "go with" or "take with", leaving out the object pronoun because it's understood. And there's a whole separate article about the well documented Nordic expression "Uff da". An article about such expressions would be a good place for this "bitte" / "please" oddity. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:46, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Well if we keep debating on its inclusion into the article it could very well migrate into being a meme or is the term mimi maybe Memi. Whatever they group the Phrase "Pikachu aim for the horn!"

I found it http://citybeat.com/1999-09-16/cover3.shtml it says right there "CityBeat has compiled the following glossary of terms, phrases and pronunciation you can find only in Cincinnati:" The damn thing was staring me right in the face right above "please?"

Its clear that its from the word "Bitte" but how it was translated, defined and used since its coinage is very interesting. especially with the article saying that its the only thing left that is a throw back to the German roots in Cincinnati.

Well that solved on problem but there is one i'm myself concerned with. If just putting Please? is't going feel naked.

It'll be good to do a least a little back story into it.

At most we could put in the article that Cincinnati has had polls about it named "That's So Cincy" or what ever they said on that site, and that Cincinnati has its own Cincinnati-speak. That could go into the cultural section.

maybe put:

The local dialect has evolved to become a mix of northern and southern rooted and acculturated terms, which borrows more heavier on southern influence then most locals are willing to admit. Along with mixing accents and terms, many words and phrases have been dubbed and coined as "Cincinnati-speak" and being identified with Cincinnati. This includes the use of the word "Please?" that is a throwback to the German roots of the city; taken from the German word Bitte, which can translate as "please" or "excuse me." The term is one of the few surviving connections to the German language that can still be heard today.

although i wish i could mention that "Please?" was used in the third episode of Threshold in "The blood of children" i can't find it mentioned Explicitly enough to satisfy wikipedia policy. I do have a site that mentioned the pilot that said it had a change in his dialect, which was caught by the show's mathematics and linguistics genius Aurthur Ramsey played by Peter Dinklage.Yami (talk) 02:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Well seeing that i have found a source that says it is unique to Cincinnati Ohio, and multiple sites talking about it i think I've proven it to be notable enough for inclusion. Yami (talk) 18:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I think you should review the discussion above. Uniqueness, which you have (perhaps) demonstrated, does not imply notability. Pzavon (talk) 01:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

The interrogative exclamation "Please?!" and its relationship to Cincinnati is mentioned in the book "Dictionary of American regional English" By Frederic Gomes Cassidy & Joan Houston Hall, page 209. The book is published by Harvard University Press. This doesn't solve the notability question (unless mentioning it in the book makes it notable) but it is a reference for the term. Also mentioned is the use in Milwaukee. Mfields1 (talk) 01:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Metropolitan Area Controversy

Despite how DESPERATE people in Cincinnati are to show that the city may have outlying suburbs that will be within a number of miles of Dayton's, the result will NOT be a metro area. At best, it will be a megalopolis. Not even a Combined Statistical Area, because it were, then Cleveland could not only claim Canton, but also Youngstown. If Cleveland adopted those cities (by utilizing the same standards that are being used by the DESPERATE people in Southwest Ohio who constantly edit the main article), then the metro area for Cleveland would be over five million people! You guys in Cincinnati need to realize that your region is FAR smaller than Northeast Ohio is. Stop desperately trying to claim Dayton as your own. It's not even close. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.178.232.98 (talk) 14:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I would highly agree with that and I am a Cincinnatian. For those of us who live down by the river, Dayton may as well be Columbus, Cleveland... whatever else up north. It's not a part of this town geographically or culturally. Truth be told you are right about the areas size- greater metro area stats that include counties outside Hamilton, Campbell, Kenton and Boone counties are an inaccurate representation of the cities size. In no ones mind who lives here are those counties part of Cincinnati as the actual city comes no where near them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.71.201.201 (talk) 20:57, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

And, truth be told, Cincinnati has more in common (climatically, geolically, culturally, historically, etc) with Kentucky (and the extreme Upper South) than it does with Dayton, Ohio (mind you, there is a Dayton, Kentucky just across the Ohio River) or much of the rest of Ohio for that matter. I also am a Cincinnatian. Anyone who has spent time here or lives here would surely know what I mean. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.224.3.118 (talk) 02:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I would very much agree with that. --KY6 (talk) 18:53, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Those inside the beltways may feel distinctly "Cincinnatian" or "Daytonian" but those outside -- say in Warren County -- don't feel so DESPERATE about their identity. And certainly the Census Bureau doesn't; it looks at urbanization regardless of byzantine political boundaries and self-proclaimed identities. That's why Indiana and Kentucky counties are included. I also note that not a few of my co-workers make the hour drive from Montgomery County to Clermont County daily. Without any noticeable culture shock. Duke Ganote (talk) 05:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

End of demographics section should be corrected: Cincinnati is the second largest metropolitan area in Ohio (after Cleveland). Golocinaay (talk) 06:00, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Transportation

Section on airport needs to be updated. With recent cutbacks, CVG is now Delta Airline's fourth largest hub (after Atlanta, Salt Lake City, and New York JFK). Golocinaay (talk) 06:09, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

If you have third-party reliable sources, please correct the information with a properly formatted footnote. Thanks, §hep^Talk 21:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Most Global Fortune 500 Companies in the Midwest?

I removed this "documented" finding that Cincinnati has the most Global Fortune 500 companies in the Midwest because it is extremely misleading. If you're taking this on a literal basis, it is correct in terms of the city of Cincinnati versus other cities in the Midwest. However, it makes more sense to include the entire Metropolitan Area of a market, not just an individual city. And in this case, Chicago surpasses Cincinnati, and I think Minneapolis does too. I can understand "civic boosterism" on most city pages, but this was misleading. Asc85 (talk) 14:52, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Cincinnati transportation map

Can the map of greater cincy under transportation be edited to accurately reflect Indiana? As we all know here, Indiana is part of the greater Cincy area and 1275 goes through Indiana. The map is thus misleading and incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.192.64.35 (talk) 16:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Cincinnati Image Montage

That image is missing copyright information and is up for deletion. No copyright information was provided for the Cincinnati montage, therefore it will be removed from the article and Wikipedia. This isn't about hating a montage of Cincinnati, or about undoing someone's work, or about making the Cincinnati article worse, this is about following basic Wikipedia Guidelines. J.H (talk) 23:48, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

You could, however, use File:Cincy montage part 2.JPG if you like. The licensing and policy violations on this second file were fixed with this edit. —teb728 t c 02:13, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Do we want to have a montage

All right, now that he appears to have a good, usable image (as far as copyright goes), do we even want a montage? Personally, I like a single image better, but, I'm open to discussion. After reverting the re-addition of the montage, Jeffmeck22 contacted me on my talk page. Hopefully, he read the part about bringing the discussion here instead.--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail} 18:20, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

• Yes I did and thank you for doing that I probably should have started the discussion section before I added the montage but nonetheless thank you!--Jeffmeck22 ^Talk

Leaving aside the issue of whether a montage should be used, the present montage, File:Cincinnati montage.JPG, will be deleted shortly. The top and bottom images of the montage are replaceable non-free images, which makes the whole montage unacceptable to Wikipedia. It will be deleted in a few days. An older montage, File:Cincy montage part 2.JPG, is acceptable to Wikipedia, if you choose to use it. —teb728 t c 07:18, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

Yes, although let's use a montage that has the correct copyright status. J.H (talk) 22:49, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Not a fan of the montage

The previous picture was very, very nice. I get that people like the montages (though I have no idea why), but the one here is lacking... the other skyline picture was superior to the one chosen, the fountain picture is insanely small, Kings Island isn't actually in Cincinnati, and the bottom picture doesn't really do much aside from spell out the city's name. I'd recommend you guys make one closer to these: File:CityChicagoMontage.jpg--MichiganCharms (talk) 05:16, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

As long as they have appropriate permissions, I'm fine with a montage. Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to).--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail Review} 11:44, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

History

I suggest mention be made regarding Fort Washington, which was the first of several forts built by Gen. Anthony Wayne, this one in 1789, as he and his regiment marched bit by bit northward to the Maumee Valley. Musicwriter (talk) 21:27, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Sister Cities

Isn't Rome considered a sister city, because of Cincinnati's seven hills and its name derived from Cincinnatus? That's what I was always taught. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.161.143.210 (talk) 14:55, 21 November 2009 (UTC)

Reporting station

There are several meteorological stations for the Cincinnati area listed in the source provided. most disappointedly, the table does not mention explicitly which one was used, as should be the norm for cities with a severe microclimate phenomenon, multiple stations, or both. so which one should we utilise? ---华钢琴49 (TALK) 05:09, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Untitled

Would anyone be able to upload a phot of the Dixie Terminal? ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:36, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Twin cities of Cincinnati

The page about Cincinatti says it has only 7 twin cities, but the page about the Israeli city Netanya says the these two cities are twins two even though it's not mentiones in the page about Cincinatti. I don't know which one is wrong but I recommend you to figure it out and fix that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.110.223.143 (talk) 18:45, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

New Skyline Photo

The current photo of the city skyline does not include the new Queen City Tower. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.165.82 (talk) 12:01, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it is a terrible picture of Cincinnati. Most of it is of Covington and the sky with only a tiny sliver actually being Cincinnati. Desperately needs replaced! J.H (talk) 22:34, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Split off the transportation section into another page?

I'd like to write a good deal more about transportation in Cincinnati, particularly about public transport, but I'm feeling like the section on transportation is already getting large and awkwardly organized. Is everyone cool with me trying to reorganize it on another page, say under the name 'Transportation in Cincinnati' with categories for public transit, highway, aviation, bridges, bicycles etc? I would then leave a shorter summary on the Cincinnati page with links to the relavent sections of the transportation page. It seems like this is the structure pages for other large cities use.

Bike756 (talk) 14:52, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Note sure why this is showing up where it is...where is the current talk page? Bike756 (talk) 14:53, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

Where if anywhere do 'Accolades' belong?

I just moved a list of media 'accolades' of the magazine's-top-ten-places-to-live variety from the history section, where it definitely doesn't belong, to the culture section, where I'm pretty sure it also doesn't belong. I'm inclined to delete it as it doesn't seem subjective at all and doesn't really give the reader anything informative. Any city can claim dozens of such 'awards'. Does the list deserve to stay? If so, where? Bike756 (talk) 19:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

MSA data is wrong.

Based on Current Census data, and current Wiki page, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_of_the_United_States) Cincinnati MSA is not the largest in Ohio, it is 3rd behind Cleveland MSA and Columbus MSA. Cleveland MSA is 3,497,711; Columbus MSA is 2,348,495; Cincinnati MSA is 2,188,001. The article is using data from before the 2010 Census.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tickerage (talk • contribs) 02:24, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The numbers you are using are all for the larger Combined Statistical Areas (CSA), not the MSAs. Cleveland's MSA as of 2010 was just over 2 million and Columbus was about 1.8 million. The tricky issue with the ranking of the MSAs within Ohio has been that while Cincinnati's MSA is larger than both Cleveland's and Columbus' (as of 2010), it is not totally in Ohio, so saying "largest in Ohio" isn't correct. When the CSAs or media markets are ranked, then yes, Cincinnati is the third largest in Ohio even with the Indiana and Kentucky parts of the Cincinnati-Middletown-Wilmington CSA. --JonRidinger (talk) 04:40, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Yes, well media markets, or the portion within Ohio should indeed matter, but according to the Wiki and Census stats, that still puts Cincinnati MSA at 3 in Ohio (although how Columbus includes Washington Courthouse, with nothing between it and the City of Columbus but vacant fields is a mystery to us all.) In any case, Cincinnati MSA is #2 in Ohio and thus the first paragraph should be changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.14.101 (talk) 05:50, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The stats I have for MSAs in 2010 have Cincinnati-Middletown Metropolitan Statistical Area at 2,130,151, Cleveland-Elyria-Mentor MSA at 2,077,240, and Columbus MSA at 1,836,536. Within Ohio, the Cincinnati MSA had 1,624,983. It depends on how the paragraph is worded in terms of "in Ohio" (so it's clear the metro area includes large parts of two other states) and what "metro area" is being measured (media market, CSA, or MSA). Cincinnati is the largest MSA that is based in Ohio, but saying it's "third largest" in Ohio isn't accurate either since its metro area goes beyond the borders of Ohio. --JonRidinger (talk) 06:54, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Adding a 5th paragraph to the opening?

Hey team, would you recommend adding a 5th paragraph to the opening, detailing some more positive press the city has gotten lately and also our business community? I've noticed other cities (see Columbus and Pittsburgh) have sections detailing Fortune 500 businesses in the community, as well as rankings such as BusinessWeek, MarketWatch, and Forbes Magazine rankings for different aspects of the cultures of the respective cities.

We could add info talking about P&G, Kroger, Macy's, and other major corporations here, as well as groups like the Brandery and Cintrifuse. We could also add rankings, like the recent poll that said Cincinnati is the 5th most romantic city in the US. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.139.36.65 (talk) 01:12, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree. It seems that the introduction to the Cincinnati page is lacking some prominent material. Many other city pages include a paragraph on economic information and a paragraph on city rankings. There is no mention of the large corporations headquartered here or that this is a marketing capital of the world. How about the fact that every grocery store in the world has at least one consumer product branded by a Cincinnati firm? - (http://choosecincy.com/about/key_sectors/consumer_products_creative_services)

There's also probably an opportunity to restructure the 3rd paragraph. It jumps topics without transition and includes information that probably isn't critical enough for the introductory section (How important is it that someone learn about UC's roots with the Ohio School of Medicine in the early 1800s in the first section?)

I'm interested in revising and then posting here in the talk section for review. Thoughts? Airnel48 (talk) 01:43, 30 May 2013 (UTC) Eric

Agreed. It'd be great to see what you can come up with. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.139.36.65 (talk) 01:12, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

My caution is to not overly rely on articles like Pittsburgh and Columbus, Ohio since they are not Featured articles. Find articles with FA status (especially if they were promoted recently) and model any paragraphs after what you find in the leads of those articles. The lead needs to summarize the article, so it shouldn't have any information that is unique to the lead itself. Also make sure you have read WP:LEAD. --JonRidinger (talk) 03:38, 1 June 2013 (UTC)

Jon's point is a good one. I'll do a bit more research on Featured city pages and will try to post a draft within a week or so. Airnel48 (talk) 12:51, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Everyone,

I'm proposing the following to replace the 3rd paragraph of the intro section. I am proposing 0 changes to the 1st, 2nd, and 4th paragraphs. The numbers in parentheses would be replaced with the sources. Please let me know your thoughts.

"Rated an All-American City, the Cincinnati economy is diverse with a broad base in manufacturing, health care, financial services, and consumer marketing. The city is widely accepted as the birthplace of consumer research and brand management(1). According to the City of Cincinnati Economic Development Division, every grocery store aisle in the world contains at least one consumer product branded by a design firm in Cincinnati(2). A 2012 study by KPMG listed Cincinnati as the least-costly location to do business in the United States among the 27 largest metro areas (all with populations exceeding 2 million)(3). It was also ranked the 9th best city for raising a family by Forbes and the 3rd best U.S. travel destination by Lonely Planet magazine(4)(5). Cincinnati is home to two major sports teams, the Cincinnati Reds and the Cincinnati Bengals, an important tennis tournament, the Cincinnati Masters, and to large events such as the Flying Pig Marathon, the Bunbury and MidPoint music festivals, and North America's largest Oktoberfest, Oktoberfest Zinzinnati."

Airnel48 (talk) 00:24, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Each study mentioned needs a year with it (like the KMPG one mentioned) because that information can quickly become dated. Personally, it sounds more promotional than encyclopedic, especially since a city's rank can change dramatically from one year to the next. One suggestion is dropping the "All-American City" mention or refining it. It really adds nothing to the paragraph because the average reader likely doesn't know what that designation means, plus it has nothing to do with the economy. If you feel mention should be included, it needs to have the years won since that is not a permanent designation. According to the All-America City Award article, Cincinnati has won the award three times, but it's been over 30 years since the last time (1980–81).

The Cincinnati Masters tennis tournament is actually in Mason, Ohio and that fact also needs to be mentioned in the sports section. City articles are typically limited to the borders of the actual city, especially when a Cincinnati metropolitan area article exists. Because the tournament has Cincinnati in the name, I don't think it's improper to mention it in this article, but it needs to be clear that it's not actually held in Cincinnati. It's similar to the New York Jets and New York Giants being mentioned in the New York City article even though they play in New Jersey and how Interstate 271 isn't mentioned in the Cleveland article in the highway section since it never crosses into the city of Cleveland. --JonRidinger (talk) 08:51, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, John. That's good feedback. For reference, I modeled the paragraph off the intro from the Houston page which is a featured article. I'll take your feedback, make edits, and post back here. Airnel48 (talk) 22:20, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Sister cities

If there are 9 sister cities, you should find a source for it because the current source states that there are only 8. I am One of Many (talk) 22:55, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Dear I am One of Many , I am unaware of the number of sister cities Cincinnati has. I am aware that Netanya is one of them because I am certain that there are programs between the two cities. Here is a cite: jewishcincinnati.org/cincinnati-students-visit-netanya.aspx I am newer to wikipedia and not good at citing so is it possible you can now that there is a link. Thank you! Matth213 (talk) 03:07, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

MSA

If you are going to have information on here about a city, you should at least verify the information. Cincinnati is the largest city in Ohio, by metropolitan area population, not the 3rd largest. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.49.251.124 (talk) 21:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

This has been discussed multiple times. Cincinnati is the 3rd largest city proper in the state behind Columbus and Cleveland. The Cincinnati MSA is larger than both Columbus and Cleveland, but not within Ohio, since it includes parts of Kentucky and Indiana, so saying "largest in Ohio" isn't accurate since the part of the metro within Ohio is smaller than both MSAs of Cleveland and Columbus. The Combined Statistical Area (CSA) and media market is also the 3rd largest after Cleveland and Columbus. --JonRidinger (talk) 21:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Structure

Hi. I'm going through all the US Cities (as per List of United States cities by population) in an effort to provide some uniformity in structure. Anyone have an issue with me restructuring this article as per Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline. I won't be changing any content, merely the order. Occasionally, I will also move a picture just to clean up spacing issues. I've already gone through the top 20 or so on the above list, if you'd like to see how they turned out. Thoughts? Onel5969 (talk) 19:53, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

Should we have a section discussing the concept of 'neighborhoods' in Cincinnati, as not every city is a city of 'neighborhoods'? The strong sense of identity, the disagreements over borders -- for instance, the City and County disagree with the residents of Hyde Park and Mt Lookout where the border lies between the two neighborhoods. valereee (talk) 14:53, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I think that would be great. Do it! Bike756 (talk)

'Liveability'

I'm not sure a list of magazine awards for 'liveability' belongs on the main page for the city. At best, these should be a series of references after a short statement about 'liveability', whatever that is. Anyone disagree? Bike756 (talk) 01:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Certainly livability is often cited by Cincinnatians as a reason to stay, but is that unusual among cities in the Midwest or of Cincinnati's size? Also, if a blog isn't notable enough for its own Wikipedia article, we shouldn't bother mentioning Cincinnati's rank according to that blog. (There are more widely recognized public library ratings, such as HAPLR.) – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 11:08, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

I shall remove them. I can't think of a legitimate place to move them to (or I would), or even a way to keep a mention of livability since that's such a fuzzy term. I don't think we're losing much though. Someone can always pull them out of the page history if they're missed. Nate Wessel (talk) 05:18, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Scope

Actually, yes, city articles are "hemmed" by their boundaries since we have articles for their respective metro areas. This article is about the city of Cincinnati. Greater Cincinnati covers the metro area (which is "hemmed" by the borders defined by the Census Bureau), and Hamilton County, Ohio covers the county it is in. The city of Cincinnati is not a "tri-state" thing; the metro area is. As such, mentioning schools in Northern Kentucky and in Oxford, Ohio, is outside the scope of this article. If we don't stick to the borders, where does "Cincinnati" stop? What differentiates it from Greater Cincinnati? Further, because Wikipedia has articles for the many definitions and suburbs of a given city, we can be specific about where certain notable features actually are instead of referring to them with general locations like we would in a paper encyclopedia. Obviously there are some exceptions to the rule (such as mentioning the New York Jets and New York Giants in the article on New York City since the teams use the name of the city even though they do not play in the city), but for the most part, sticking to the borders helps keep a consistent scope for all city articles. Miami and UNK are definitely in the metro area, but they should be mentioned in that article if they aren't already, similar to how schools like Kent State University and the University of Akron aren't mentioned in the Cleveland article even though they are in the Cleveland CSA. Instead, they are mentioned in Northeast Ohio, which includes info on the Cleveland CSA. Additionally, the mentions of the schools that are actually in the city limits could be expanded a bit further. There is no shortage of information from things within the city limits that we need to resort to "border creep" to fill an article with things that are in the "Cincinnati area". If Miami and UNK had physical campuses or facilities in Cicinnati, then yes, those would be mentioned, but not simply because they have campuses nearby. --JonRidinger (talk) 18:48, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

And to add to what Jon said, if the city article includes the metro area, then there is no article about the city, and that would be a shame. Beirne (talk) 19:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, then. You folks obviously have left the scope-focusing task half-done, as the lede continues to claim: "Cincinnati is home to two major sports teams, the Cincinnati Reds and the Cincinnati Bengals, and a prominent annual tennis tournament, the Cincinnati Masters." The tennis is actually wholly contained in Mason, Ohio, Of course, in the ATP/WTA world, it is Cincinnati. And Cincinnati International is actually in Kentucky and its code, CVG, stands for Covington, Kentucky, located in Kenton County, albeit is wholly occupies Boone County, Kentucky territory. Also, NKU (there is no UNK) has facilities such as the NPR affiliate WNKU FM 89.7 which serve Cincinnati and operate in divided-labor mode with the other NPR affiliates at Xavier and University of Cincinnati. Kroger, headquartered in Cincinnati, has built a research center physically on campus at NKU in Highland Heights, KY, where University of Cincinnati students take tuition-free classes on the same basis as NKU students do in the Clifton neighborhood of Cincinnati, where UC main campus is located. Incidentally, Blue Ash, Ohio, abutting Cincinnati city limits, contains another UC campus. The I-471 interstate rather uniquely connects downtown Cincinnati with NKU in a straight spoke short 6 mile stretch that makes getting there from Cincinnati easier and faster than from most places in Kentucky. I have always been a fan of applying rules and truisms with a light hand that takes into account local factors. Having lived in Cincinnati since 1977 (as well as concurrently in Chicago) and gone 5 years to NKU which is my alma matter, I like to think that my contributions to this article have been reasonable and informed. I detest selective deletionism, which, as I illustrated with the tennis tournament, has taken place here by an editor who does not tend this ground on a daily basis. --Mareklug ^talk 20:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

Your main argument is WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If you'd like I can go through the entire article and remove things that are more suitable for the Greater Cincinnati article. The education part is just what I happened to notice the most recent time I looked at the article, particularly the mention of Miami University. That you have a more vested interest in the article is irrelevant to whether or not this specific information is appropriate for this article. The difference with the tennis tournament is similar to the exception I mentioned with the New York Jets. The tennis tournament is associated with Cincinnati by its name, so mentioning it here isn't out of the question (since most people will assume it's in Cincinnati), just like mentioning the New York Jets in the NYC article makes sense because of the name association. The same is true for CVG, which is labeled as "Cincinnati". Mentioning it as the city's main airport makes sense because, again, most would assume by the name that it's in Cincinnati, even though we all know it isn't even in Ohio. I get that NKU is very convenient to Cincinnati (as it is for all of Hamilton County), but NKU being convenient to Cincinnati doesn't make it in Cincinnati and there is no name association or even a branch campus.

The problem with "applying local factors" is that Wikipedia articles aren't the property of the topics they cover. In other words, this isn't "Cincinnati's article"; I have just as much right to edit the article as you do even though I am not a Cincinnati resident and you and I both have to adhere to the same policies and guidelines, even in adding reliable references. "Local truisms" are just that: local, and they still have to be reliably sourced. The vast majority of the people reading this article likely aren't local, however. It's the same reasons why we avoid using local terminology and abbreviations in articles. I have edited many city articles, both of cities I have lived in and cities I have visited, but also of cities I have never been to. City articles, like any Wikipedia articles, have policies and guidelines to help make them consistent in their content and scope. Doesn't mean they're all cookie-cutter articles, but they have the same basic structure and cover the same basic information within their specific topic. I don't doubt there are many things you consider "in Cincinnati" that really aren't in the city limits. That's true of most locals in any area; not really paying close attention to city boundaries or the difference between an inner-ring suburb and the city proper. That said, it doesn't mean we just disregard the scope. The "local factor" is that locals are able to supply things like printed sources (i.e. not online) as well as taking photos to use in articles (instead of just copying them from a website).

My removal was by no means "deletionism". If it was just deletionism I would argue the information has no place on Wikipedia, which I never stated. The reality is that I don't believe it is within the scope of this article, which is the city of Cincinnati and a city is defined by physical boundaries. Details about the NKU campus outside the city aren't appropriate for this specific article, but would be appropriate for the education section of Greater Cincinnati as well as whatever city and county NKU is physically located in. The same goes for Miami University. Again, if we didn't have articles about the metro area and the specific suburbs, adding info like that to include the general area would be fine, but because we do have those articles, we do not need to be so broad as to include the entire metro area in the article about the city. Further, the entire education section needs an overhaul since it also dwells more on the Cincinnati area (appropriate for Greater Cincinnati and/or Hamilton County, Ohio, and needs cleanup for the various citations and general organization. For instance, I edited the mention of the parochial schools to limit it to the schools actually in Cincinnati, not the entire metro area.

For a similar example, see Cleveland#Education. Not only are the regional universities I mentioned previously not included in the article on the city, but even schools in the suburbs such as Baldwin-Wallace University and John Carroll University are not included in that article since they are not within the city limits of Cleveland. They are as "convenient" to Cleveland as NKU is to Cincinnati. And in case you're wondering, I edit the Cleveland article as much (or less) than I edit this one. --JonRidinger (talk) 21:30, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

The part that could still stand to be straightened out, though, is the economy section, which says almost nothing about the city of Cincinnati but a lot about greater Cincinnati. All we learn about the city is that it has Kroger's, P&G, and Macy's. Beirne (talk) 00:15, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. It also reminded me that any data used from the Census Bureau (including economic data) is going to come from their measurements of the city, not the "area". The Census Bureau limits their measurement for "Cincinnati" to that within its defined physical boundaries. They have separate measurements and reports for the Cincinnati MSA and CSA. --JonRidinger (talk) 02:04, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Timeline of Cincinnati

What is missing from the city timeline? Please add relevant content. Thank you. -- M2545 (talk) 12:56, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

Edit summary on removal of content: "Tidying up, for social reasons."

@SocialExLou:, I'm not sure what you mean by this edit summary. Why did you remove that content? valereee (talk) 19:15, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

citations required when there's a link to a main article?

@SovalValtos: Can you show me the policy/guideline that states that when a link is provided to a well-sourced main article, citations within a short mention are still required? Because I'm not finding it. In my experience quite often a short mention in an article which links to a well-sourced main article on the subject is sufficient. valereee (talk) 15:33, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Valereee - WP:WHYCITE does not say anything about the citations not being in an article which links to another Wikipage (which may or may not have citations to back up the information). Is there some guideline you can point to which says this is the case? Onel5969 ^{TT me} 16:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Onel5969:, no, I can't! That's the problem!  :) I've received opposite opinions from two experienced editors on this issue. I just asked over at Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources and was pointed to Wikipedia:Summary style#References which says "Each article on Wikipedia must be able to stand alone as a self-contained unit (exceptions noted herein)...This applies whether in a parent article or in a summary-style subarticle." So I'm thinking that definitely is starting to get at it, but what "exceptions are noted herein" exactly? valereee (talk) 16:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for getting back to me, Valereee. I think the key is that articles have to stand alone. What if one of the linked articles is deleted? I also think it's a common courtesy to not have to make an editor/researcher do more work by tracking a citation down. Imagine (not that this was the case in this instance), that you don't put a cite in an article, since it has an article of it's own, but that article doesn't have a cite either, simply linking to another wikipage, etc. I think when we can, we should always put a cite to information, not rely on a link to another article. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 17:08, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

@Onel5969: -- oh, definitely agree that in questionable circumstances sources would always be necessary -- certainly anything controversial, and if SovalValtos sees this information as controversial then that's enough right there. In this case I did happen to know that both linked pages had been thoroughly sourced, as I'd done much of that work myself and then updated the Cincinnati page to reflect that work. But I'd been told by another very experienced editor that if there was a pointer to the main article, that main article was sourced, and the content in question was brief/noncontroversial, bringing the citations over wasn't necessary; otherwise I'd have done it at the time I did the updates. I removed the tags with an explanation because I believed that explanation was sufficient. I have no objections to bringing those sources over, but the guidelines probably need to go into this specifically (or at least more clearly) as I can't imagine it's an unusual situation. Girding my loins to go do that because scary discretionary sanctions apply. valereee (talk) 17:22, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks User:Valeree for your good humoured understanding. SovalValtos (talk) 22:20, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

No sweat, SovalValtos (talk · contribs)! valereee (talk) 22:35, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

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Harambe

Please make a note of the tragic death of Americas greatest great ape, harambe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:F803:1F00:9CDF:D451:3C83:C5BC (talk) 17:24, 25 August 2016 (UTC)