Talk:Christ Catholic Church

Requested move 14 December 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved - Sort out potential merge via talk page discussion Mike Cline (talk) 17:24, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

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Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) → Christ Catholic Church –
Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC according to Melton's encyclopedia of American religions (2009), pp. 111, 1162–3 (you can check it on Archive.org). Veverve (talk) 10:49, 14 December 2021 (UTC) — Relisting.  ASUKITE 19:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
EDIT: it appears to be a primary topic also as per Independent Bishops: An International Directory (1990, Apogee Books):

• "Karl Pruter, founder and bishop of Christ Catholic Church." (p. v)
• The title of the entry of Pruter reads: "Pruter, [Karl] Hugo Rehling - Christ Catholic Church". The entry, when speaking about Zhurawetsky's denomination, states: "Peter A. Zhurawetsky of the Old Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America" (p. 330)
• The title of Zhurawetsky's entry reads: "Zhurawetsky, Peter Andreas - Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America". Within the entry, one can read "[Zhurawetsky] soon changed th name of the church to Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe. [...] The church has also been known as Christ Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate, Byelorussian National Catholic Church, and most recently as the Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America. He maintains a chapel called Church of the Visitation at Vineland, New Jersey. The most substantive work to emerge from Zhurawetsky's activity has been Christ Catholic Church which began as the Diocese of Boston under his jurisdiction. It is led by Karl Pruter whom Zhurawetsky consecrated in 1967." (pp. 445-6)

Veverve (talk) 17:03, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Leaning toward a merge instead: The proposer didn't mention that something different was at the proposed title for the last 13 years, until they moved it out of the way yesterday without discussion. Also, the rationale for the proposal is merely a pointer to something we are invited to go read for ourselves, without any explanation of why the Pruter church should be considered primary. The provided comments are not clearly relevant to Wikipedia's guidelines or policies. I am not an expert on the subject matter, but at first glance I don't see why there should be two separate articles. The whole history covered in these two articles (1937–present) could just be covered in one article (without excessive length or complexity). Although the formal name of the church during 1961–1968 may have been a bit longer ("Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe", previously known as the "Polish Old Catholic Church"), "Christ Catholic Church" was presumably its WP:common name, and the Pruter church seems to have been its effective successor, as the rest of the movement basically fizzled out in the 1960s around the time when Pruter founded his version. The information about the church of 1937–1965/1968+ can be in the same article as the Pruter spin-off of 1965–2007+. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:17, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

  @BarrelProof: Although the formal name of the church during 1961–1968 may have been a bit longer ("Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe", previously known as the "Polish Old Catholic Church"), "Christ Catholic Church" was presumably its WP:common name, and the Pruter church seems to have been its effective successor

I have read two specialised sources on the subject which I have mentioned in my rationale (I have added the second one recently, as I could not consult the source before, please have a look). None of those two allude to "Christ Catholic Church" being a way to refer to the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe at any point in time. Each time, Pruter's denomination is called "Christ Catholic Church" and is distinguished from the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe. Veverve (talk) 17:08, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

Not objecting at this point, as the proposer obviously knows more about the subject than I do, although I still think a merge is worth considering. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:40, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose removal of (Pruter) seems to me from above to be the only distinguishing feature of the title. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:59, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi: To distinguish the title from what? Veverve (talk) 13:01, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Mm you have a point. Subject so odd striking. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:43, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Christianity has been notified of this discussion. ASUKITE 19:18, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose but instead merge Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) and Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe as Christ Catholic Church. The topics are so closely related as to be best presented in one article. Andrewa (talk) 09:09, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

@Andrewa: those are two different organisations and Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) is clearly the primary topic according to all the sources I looked at. Why merge? How are the topics so closely related? Veverve (talk) 10:48, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Recent move

 16:27, 13 December 2021 Veverve talk contribs block  110 bytes +110  Veverve moved page Christ Catholic Church to Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe: Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) is clearly the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC according to Melton's encyclopedia of American religions (2009), pp. 111, 1162–3 

If we have no consensus here we should consider reverting that move. Andrewa (talk) 09:09, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

The Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe is never called "Christ Catholic Church". "Christ Catholic Church" is always used to refer to Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) (WP:V, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:RS). Veverve (talk) 10:56, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Proposed merge

I propose that the articles currently at Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) and Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe be merged to Christ Catholic Church.

Pinging Veverve, BarrelProof and In ictu oculi as the other participants in the recent RM, closed with the comment Sort out potential merge via talk page discussion. Andrewa (talk) 16:47, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Mechanism

In order to best preserve the article histories, the recent undiscussed move mentioned above should first be reverted. Christ Catholic Church currently has no significant history, while Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) and Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe both have significant history. Andrewa (talk) 16:47, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

Rationale

Christ Catholic Church is ambiguous in that either of the existing articles would be at that title if the other topic did not exist. It is a more concise name for both, trivially so as it is a substring of both current article names. One of these articles spent most of its history at the more concise name, until recently and unilaterally moved. The other is currently a parenthetical disambiguation of this same concise title Christ Catholic Church.

The two topics are closely related, as one group was a breakaway group from the other. Andrewa (talk) 16:47, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose:

• All sources use "Christ Catholic Church" as referring to Christ Catholic Church (Pruter). And all sources differentiate between the two churches and do not treat them as simply a part of the history of another, e.g. the entries in the Melton's encyclopedia of American religions are separated (see the sources given in the RM above and in the WP articles of both denominations). Both denominations have enough WP:Notability to deserve their own article. The name "Christ Catholic Church" is never used to refer to both denominations either. What you are suggesting is essentially an unacceptable, bloated DAB. As a sidenote, I do not oppose turning Christ Catholic Church into a real DAB, i.e. a mere list of links.
• Names of WP articles should be what is a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC and WP:COMMONNAME, not made-up terms created for conciseness and without giving any WP:RS to support them.
• Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) and Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe are two different denomination, with the only common point that what was to become the Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) was part during one (!) year of the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe before being granted its independence. And the Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) continues to exist to this day while the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe does not exist anymore.

Veverve (talk) 17:11, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

• Comment: As I said before, at first glance it looks like these articles could be merged; however, I am "Not objecting [to what Veverve is saying] at this point, as the proposer obviously knows more about the subject than I do". If Veverve thinks a merge is not appropriate, that matters more than my uninformed rough impression. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:39, 14 January 2022 (UTC)
  • There is not doubt they are knowledgeable on the topic, but I (obviously) do not think it follows that they know how Wikipedia article titles and scopes work, or how they should work in this case. To describe the proposed merged article as an unacceptable, bloated DAB is a curious view, particularly as they don't object to a 2-way DAB instead. But there is progress, considering that would involve reverting their bold move. Andrewa (talk) 22:03, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

@Andrewa: what I meant by an unacceptable, bloated DAB is how the page you want would be. You propose a page with the title "Christ Catholic Church" for two different organisations, and I fail to see how the lede would not run as something like "The Christ Catholic Church can designate either X or Y". An article like Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary is justified, because 1) it presents the groups which have come from a bigger group which lasted for more than 10 years before it split; 2) the groups described do not have enough notability to each have their own article (only one does), 3) each group is briefly mentioned apart from one which appeared in the news of numerous RS (so likely WP:DUE). That is on top of my other previous arguments. Veverve (talk) 22:21, 14 January 2022 (UTC)

The article to which you refer starts Slaves of the Immaculate Heart of Mary refers to a number of different religious communities which all trace their roots to the St. Benedict Center, founded in 1940 by Catherine Goddard Clarke in Harvard Square, Cambridge, Massachusetts.

Similarly, Christ Catholic Church could start Christ Catholic Church has been the name of two denominations, one of which sprang from the other. We may be able to do better, but why is one acceptable and the other not? Andrewa (talk) 00:27, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

"Christ Catholic Church" has never been the name of these two denominations (I gave RSs supporting this), only of one, the one founded by Pruter. Again, the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe is never called "Christ Catholic Church", be it as an official name or a surname; there is no RS to support the use of "Christ Catholic Church" to designate the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe. Veverve (talk) 01:00, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

No, you gave sources supporting that one of these has sometimes been known by a longer name... of which Christ Catholic Church is a substring.

There is no doubt that at least one (and more likely both) of these denominations has been known at times as Christ Catholic Church. If not, why would we even consider a two-way DAB?

https://slife.org/list-of-christian-denominations/ lists simply Christ Catholic Church as one denomination. What do you understand that to mean?

https://holysynodccc.angelfire.com/ consistently uses the name Christ Catholic Church.

So your claim that "Christ Catholic Church" has never been the name of these two denominations is curious. If you mean it has never been the name of either, that is quite simply false. But you seem to want to say that it has never been the name of the organisation you wish to call Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe, and whose article you unilaterally moved from the title Christ Catholic Church. And yet it had been stable at the title Christ Catholic Church since March 2008. So the claim that "Christ Catholic Church" has never been the name of that denomination also appears to be false. The official name may have been the longer one that you prefer, but that is irrelevant. Andrewa (talk) 02:21, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable secondary source where the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe is called "Christ Catholic Church". "Christ Catholic Church" has always been used to designate Pruter's denomination; indeed "Christ Catholic Church" has never been the name of the organisation [...] Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe.

This website (holysynodccc) has no archive, so it may be a recent website claiming the legacy of the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe, as the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe had ceased to exist by at least 2009 according to Melton. The website - copy-pasting the WP article almost verbatim, hyperlinks included - states: "In 1959, the church changed its name [from 'Polish Old Catholic Church'] to Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe to more clearly indicate that individuals and churches of all nationalities would be welcome in the church. [...] [T]wo years later, the creation of the Diocese of Boston under Karl Pruter [...].The following year, the Christ Catholic Church, Diocese of Boston was formally recognized as an independent entity and became known as the Christ Catholic Church" (my emphasis). The website also states the name of the organisation which operates it is not "Christ Catholic Church", but "The Holy Synod of Christ Catholic Church": "The third group, which was never consulted in the Manning vote to leave the church...remained faithfully part of the original idea of Christ Catholic Church and continued to constitute, an active Church and reorganize as the Holy Synod of Christ Catholic Church...and exists to this day, mainly in Illinois and Missouri, and is now known as The Holy Synod of Christ Catholic Church, to avoid confusion with those who bear the similar name, but with much different agendas than do we."

And yet it had been stable at the title Christ Catholic Church since March 2008: numerous things in articles are stable (dare I say, sometimes stale) before I come and take care of said articles. It does not prove anything, and Wikipedia is WP:NOTSOURCE. Veverve (talk) 03:07, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Reliable sources

The problem with finding reliable sources for Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe is finding any sources at all.

The article currently gives three references only, none of them online. Two are mentions in the preface of a book published by Apogee Books, a publisher of science fiction and space-related non-fiction, and written by J. Gordon Melton who is also the author of the other source cited.

It is getting curiouser and curiouser. That article may well fail notability guidelines.

Veverve currently lists themselves as Retired but is obviously active. Andrewa (talk) 09:42, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

If you are referring to what can be seen at Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe: one of the sources (Melton's encyclopedia of American religions) is online, you simply need an Archive.org account to read it. The two other references are not mentions in the preface, but are the biographies from the two heads of the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe from their own entries. And Apogee Books also publishes non-fiction.

Feel free to AfD the article, but with an entry in the Melton's encyclopedia of American religions the denomination is likely to be kept. Veverve (talk) 09:57, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I am referring to the article I named. I didn't think it necessary to link to it, but here it is: Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe. Here's the entire reflist...

 Melton, J. Gordon (2009). "Old Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America". Melton's encyclopedia of American religions. Defunct Appendix (8th ed.). Detroit: Gale Cengage Learning. p. 1162–3. ISBN 978-0-7876-9696-2.
 Ward, Gary L.; Persson, Bertil; Bain, Alan, eds. (1990). "Zhurawetsky, Peter Andreas". Independent Bishops: An International Directory. Preface by J. Gordon Melton. Apogee Books. p. 446. ISBN 978-1-55888-307-9.
 Ward, Gary L.; Persson, Bertil; Bain, Alan, eds. (1990). "Zielonka, Jósef". Independent Bishops: An International Directory. Preface by J. Gordon Melton. Apogee Books. p. 446. ISBN 978-1-55888-307-9.

So, Melton is the only author cited.

I certainly have an account at the Internet Archive, of which Archive.org is part. Can you give the URL of Melton's encyclopedia of American religions there?

I don't at this stage think that AfD is the way to go. Christ Catholic Church looks to be an encyclopedic topic to me. But it is a problematic one, owing to its controversial nature and the scarcity of sources.

But the question here is, does Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe deserve an article of its own? Isn't that giving undue weight to Melton's views? The solution to that might still be a merge. Andrewa (talk) 20:21, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

The link for the encyclopedia is here. Veverve (talk) 20:37, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

PP 1162–3 of that work is their article on the Old Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America, is that the correct article?

As an encyclopedia, it's a tertiary source. But more important, their article Old Orthodox Patriarchate of America does not mention any Christ Catholic Church (including any Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe).

That encyclopedia contains only three mentions of Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe, on pages 1187, 1192 and 1343, is that correct? Andrewa (talk) 11:14, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@Andrewa: Yes, it is the correct entry.

p. 1162 reads: "among his first acts, Zhurawetsky changed the name of the Church to Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe"

pp. 1162 (end) and 1163 (beginning) read: "Pruter, who consented to the consecration only on the condition that they be se aside as an independent jurisdiction to be called Christ Catholic Church, Diocese of Boston, now known simply as Christ Catholic Church."

The Christ Catholic Church (of Pruter) has its entry at p. 111 (as I wrote in the Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) article). Veverve (talk) 16:10, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

@Andrewa: so, have you had the time to have a look? Veverve (talk) 19:25, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

I have been looking for sources, and asking people who might have such in their personal libraries.

They have not provided any, but have expressed the opinion that these are minor cults seeking publicity. The people expressing these opinions are not Wikipedians so do not know our standards for notability. But in view of the scarcity of sources it does again suggest that giving these groups their own articles may be giving them undue weight, and that a merge may be appropriate, or even deletion. I tend to inclusionism, so a merge appeals. Andrewa (talk) 11:51, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 1 April 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Result:
Moved. Closure requested – permalink. See no opposition below after more than three weeks, so this request is granted. Thanks and kudos to editors for your input; good health to all! P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 03:57, 28 April 2022 (UTC)

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Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) → Christ Catholic Church –
I feel the previous RM failed because I did not articulate my sources and arguments properly. Hence, a few months later, I am making a second attempt with an improved request.
Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) and Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe are two different denomination, with the only common point that what was to become the Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) was part during one (!) year of the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe before being granted its independence (see the examples below). And the Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) continues to exist to this day while the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe does not exist anymore.
All sources use "Christ Catholic Church" to refer to the Christ Catholic Church (Pruter). And all sources differentiate between Christ Catholic Church (Pruter) and the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe, and do not treat them as simply a part of the history of another. E.g. the entries in the 2009 Melton's encyclopedia of American religions are separated (the entry for the Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe is "Old Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America" on pp. 1162–3; the entry for the denomination associated with Pruter is "Christ Catholic Church" on p. 111). Both denominations have enough WP:Notability to deserve their own article. The name "Christ Catholic Church" is never used to refer to both denominations, only to the denomination associater with Pruter.
The Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe is never called "Christ Catholic Church".
The expression "Christ Catholic Church" is always used to refer to Christ Catholic Church of Pruter (WP:V, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, WP:RS). For example:

• Independent Bishops: An International Directory (1990, Apogee Books):
  • Preface:

"Karl Pruter, founder and bishop of Christ Catholic Church." (p. v)

• entry "Pruter, [Karl] Hugo Rehling - Christ Catholic Church":

"Peter A. Zhurawetsky of the Old Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America" (p. 330)

• entry "Zhurawetsky, Peter Andreas - Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America":

"[Zhurawetsky] soon changed th name of the church to Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe. [...] The church has also been known as Christ Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate, Byelorussian National Catholic Church, and most recently as the Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America. He maintains a chapel called Church of the Visitation at Vineland, New Jersey. The most substantive work to emerge from Zhurawetsky's activity has been Christ Catholic Church which began as the Diocese of Boston under his jurisdiction. It is led by Karl Pruter whom Zhurawetsky consecrated in 1967." (pp. 445-6)

• The 2009 Melton's encyclopedia of American religions (you can check for yourself at the Internet Archive)
  • entry "Old Orthodox Catholic Patriarchate of America":

"among his first acts, Zhurawetsky changed the name of the Church to Christ Catholic Church of the Americas and Europe" (p. 1162)

"Pruter, who consented to the consecration only on the condition that they be se aside as an independent jurisdiction to be called Christ Catholic Church, Diocese of Boston, now known simply as Christ Catholic Church." (pp. 1162 (end) and 1163 (beginning))

• entry "Christ Catholic Church":

"Christ Catholic Church was founded in 1965 by Rev. Karl Pruter (1920-2007)" (p. 111), see also the name of the entry and the rest of the entry's content

Therefore, as per WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, Christ Catholic Church should be the name used to designate the denomination associated with Pruter. Veverve (talk) 06:36, 1 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 05:28, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Christianity has been notified of this discussion. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 05:29, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

• Comment I do not think this is controversial in any way. The second denomination has a built-in disambiguator so none is needed for the former. If the hatnote remains in-place, there I see no reason to oppose the move. Page views (https://pageviews.wmcloud.org/?project=en.wikipedia.org&platform=all-access&agent=user&redirects=0&start=2021-01-01&end=2022-04-13&pages=Christ_Catholic_Church_(Pruter)%7CChrist_Catholic_Church_of_the_Americas_and_Europe) show this discussion is moot as the articles have seen an average of three page views combined since 2021-01-01 and I think we can safely confuse that one reader. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:23, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.