Talk:Chris Elmore

Shadow Minister for Scotland

@Alex B4: it is misleading to describe Elmore as 'Shadow Minister for Scotland', particularly as this is linked to Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland. He is number two in Labour's front bench team for Scotland in Westminster, the Shadow Secretary of State is Ian Murray. This is made clear in the cited source,[1] which says

• Scotland
  Shadow Scotland Secretary: Ian Murray
  Ministers: Chris Elmore (joint with whips office)

My description of him as 'Shadow Minister of State for Scotland' appears to be incorrect, as the junior ministers in the Scotland Office are Under-Secretaries of State. I propose that we change the infobox office to 'Shadow Under-Secretary of State for Scotland' and the main text to 'In April 2020, Elmore was made Shadow Under-Secretary of State for Scotland by new leader Keir Starmer'. I am unsure how we should describe his role in the whips office.

I am happy to discuss the wording, but we should not give the impression that he is Keir Starmer's lead on Scotland, nor that he is in the Shadow Cabinet. Verbcatcher (talk) 03:51, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm glad you cite the source because there it identifies him as Shadow Minister and we should stick to what the sources (including the bios included in the external links) say. If you are familiar at all with the Westminster system (which I assume most of our readers are given how esoteric these articles are), it will be clear he does not lead on the brief. And if people click on the wikilink, it clarifies who the Shadow Secretary of State is. Your copy-editing has been very good but on this I am not budging. I edit Scottish politics articles a lot for clarity purposes but I assume a basic level of understanding by the reader. The existing formatting is perfectly clear and there is no need to change it. Alex (talk) 04:16, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I should add that I am perfectly aware of who Ian Murray is. He was my MP for much of my life. I have edited his page as well I might add. And I take it as an insult that you describe my edits as misleading, when I am scrupulously honest and I don't assume to know anything I have not made sure I have a good understanding of. Alex (talk) 04:24, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I did not intend to insult you, I was referring to the phraseology and I was not aware who had introduced the text.

The source does not use the title "Minister for Scotland".

We should stick to what the sources say, but we must ensure that the article does not give a false impression to general readers. This is not an 'esoteric article', it is the biography of an MP. His constituents are likely to read it and we should not assume that they realise the difference between a secretary of state and a minister. If they watched Yes Minister they would probably assume that a minister is the head of a government department and that a shadow minister is his opposite number from the opposition. A Google search for "Shadow Minister for Scotland" leads to the Shadow Secretary of State.

The piped link from his job to Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland is misleading because the linked article does not mention 'Minister for Scotland'. Readers following the link would assume that the article was about Elmore's job.

Elmore's parliament page says 'He currently undertakes the roles of Opposition Whip (Commons), and Shadow Minister (Scotland)'.[2]

Our Official Opposition frontbench article describes him as 'Shadow Minister', in the Scotland Office section.

His formal title may be uncertain. I now favour "Shadow Minister (Scotland)", as in his parliament page. This is accurate and less open to misinterpretation than "Shadow Minister for Scotland".

In the main text we should describe this role with a sentence along the lines of 'In this role he supports Ian Murray, the Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland.' I kept this within the referenced text as the source mentions Murray and indicates that he is more senior. Do you object to this sentence?

We should also mention his role as a Labour whip. Apparently he is a senior whip and a "Shadow Lord Commissioner of HM Household".[3] Verbcatcher (talk) 07:03, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't object to any main text clarification (the sentence you proposed is very well worded and I'll add it in right now) but the infobox style should be consistent with other infoboxes since as I've said it is perfectly sufficient. The senior whip role should also definitely be included in the main text but for the purposes of keeping infoboxes concise, we shouldn't include opposition whip roles there. Alex (talk) 14:41, 18 July 2020 (UTC) Edited: Alex (talk) 14:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

We are getting closer, but I have not seen anything outside Wikipedia to confirm that "Shadow Minister for Scotland" is a well-established title. However, I do not plan to fight you on this. I am more concerned about linking the title to the Shadow Secretary of State article, as this is likely to lead to confusion. I have looked at the articles of the current and previous shadow ministers "for" Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland:

• Gerald Jones – "Shadow Minister for Wales", but this is not mentioned in his article
• Karin Smyth – [[Northern Ireland Office|Shadow Minister for Northern Ireland]]
• Stephen Pound – [[Northern Ireland Office|Shadow Minister for Northern Ireland]]
• Paul Sweeney – [[Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland|Shadow Minister for Scotland]]
• Chris Ruane – [[Shadow Secretary of State for Wales|Shadow Minister for Wales]]

Possible improvements are:

1. Create an article on Shadow Minister for Scotland.
2. Shadow [[Under-Secretary of State for Scotland|Minister for Scotland]]
3. [[Scotland Office|Shadow Minister for Scotland]] (as for Northern Ireland)
4. Shadow Minister for Scotland (unlinked)

I favour option 1, as the new article could contrast the role with others with which it might be confused, including a shadow of the First Minister. Are you familiar with suitable sources? Otherwise, option 2.

I am pursuing this partly because the same issue applies to other articles. Verbcatcher (talk) 04:00, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

That's fair. I'll change this and the other Shadow Minister for Scotland articles accordingly to [[Under-Secretary of State for Scotland|Shadow Minister for Scotland]]. Alex (talk) 16:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Done, as well as done across all Shadow Minister for Scotland articles. Alex (talk) 16:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)