Talk:Cavallo Romano della Maremma Laziale

Merge

I'm recommending a merge into Maremmano because at this point there isn't much info to warrant a separate article, this appears to be a spin off from the other breed, and of small numbers. I recommend this material be made a new section in the other article and when it becomes significantly longer, i could then be spun off. Also, we need an English version of this name, whether Maremm Laziale, or whatever is appropriate. Montanabw^(talk) 03:23, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll tos the merge tag per lack of consensus, but we do need an Anglification of this name so it doesn't start with "Cavallo" Montanabw^(talk) 19:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Terminology & ideas

Saw a few things in the article which are undoubtably an accurate translation, but sound very non-standard for horse lingo. My own personal thinking is that it is helpful to use standard terminology when possible, but of course, if there is a good reason to do otherwise, then we may have to educate the reader as to why. A couple things also just read a wee bit odd, though I'm a yank, so that may explain it. None of this is a "gotta do," just my own thoughts. If there's a relevant WP policy, I'll note it Montanabw^(talk) 18:45, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

1. "Ancient breed" is a bugaboo across most of the breed articles (everything but the warmbloods seems to claim "ancient" status to varying degrees). Best to parallel the body text in the lead, something like, "thought to descend from the horses of Ancient Rome or even the Etruscans..." blah, blah...
2. Should "Cavallo Romano" be included in paragraph one as the nickname or common name of the breed??
3. "working horse of the Maremma of Lazio" Is this Maremma people of Lazio or a geographical place like the Mull of Kintyre?
4. "with the Roman horse..."ancestral" genes..original type; " --is the "Roman horse" the Maremma Laziale or the Maremmo? Unclear to me, and by "ancestral genes" and "original type," do you mean foundation bloodstock or something else?
5. WP folks like conversions to both metric and imperial measurements. WPEQ likes conversions to hands, though the hands template has limitations when something falls in-between full inches. There IS a WP guideline on this (metric conversion) somewhere, but I'm on a time crunch and can't find it at the moment. So "Males measure 155–165 cm at the withers, females 150–162 cm." could be Males measure {{convert|155|-|165|cm|in}}... , etc., which looks like "Males measure 155–165 centimetres (61–65 in)"... Using the hands template, it looks like "Males measure {{hands|15.1|-|16.1}}... ", looking like: "Males measure 15.1–16.1 hands (61–65 inches, 155–165 cm)..." You can also just do something like the cm and put hands in parens after. WPEQ encourages the use of hands measurements across all the breed articles when possible.
6. "...action of the Cavallo Romano is lively and well-marked, and its temperament docile and courageous." We have the article horse gait, "action" could have a piped wikilink to that article, we usually do, sometimes even changing "action" to "gait." "Lively" is pretty common horse terminology, but "well-marked" is a little odd to American ears -- what's the equivalent? Good impulsion? Proper gait sequence? Surefooted and agile?? Curious what that means and if there's a more universal synonym. FYI, we also have definitions of many things like action at Glossary of equestrian terms, which is even handier than wiktionary for linking horse lingo. You can do a piped link to the letter of the alphabet where a word is located in the glossary like this Glossary of equestrian terms#A to get there. The temperament being described as "courageous" is sort of interesting -- what do they mean? Calm? Not spooky? Not a deadhead?
7. "The description of the Cavallo Romano given ..." is sort of redundant to the narrative in the characteristics (?) May want to note why it's there -- changing or not changing breed standard, etc...
8. " Cavallo Romano was as a working horse for the management of open-range livestock." See stock horse and open range, articles focused more on the livestock traditions of the US and Australia, but which may have a place for these working stock horses of Europe if they had similar work (we definitely have some parallels in Spain, but no one has sorted out which breeds fit the pattern of being animals that can work cattle, etc...). I didn't wikilink to these because they are not European-focused, but maybe that should be added. Or maybe the word "open range" may need to be replaced with something more European and less "cowboy." Don't know, just thinking out loud.
9. Check my wikilink to Mussolini for "facist era," WP may have a closer article more to the point.

All of the above are just ideas and suggestions, things I was thinking of as I read through. This article is coming together nicely, and nothing above is any kind of crisis or "must do," other than maybe to think about the conversion template question, which raises a minor, and not time-sensitive, manual of style question. Montanabw^(talk) 20:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

He-he, my horse terminology is very shaky in English, was going to ask you to keep a special eye on that. So yes, if it sounds odd, please say so.

'ancient breed': I thought about it (before, I mean) and I think I'm stuck with it. This isn't a let's-cross-a-parrot-with-a-kangaroo-and-see-what-we-get kind of new breed, it's the indigenous horse of an area where horses have been bred for 2000 or maybe even 3000 years. But to me the Ancient Roman/Etruscan stuff is just hot air (though the resemblance to the statue is UNCANNY), because breed types evolve and absorb influences. So unless "ancient breed" HAS to go, I say leave it.

'Cavallo Romano': I think this will become the name of the breed, as the current one is too long, but it hasn't yet, so I'm trying to keep 'cavallo romano' for the type of 100 years ago, and the full long name for today; but I need to check that I stuck to that. And no, it isn't a nickname or whatever, yet

The Maremma was a vast swamp, a very wild place, unfortunately a very bad article here (Pontine Marshes is great, though). The 'Maremma of Lazio' is like the 'prairie of the mid-West' - a place, an environment. Maybe I'll do a stub for 'Maremma Laziale', that might help. Don't tell anyone, I have totally ducked the issue of Tuscany once coming much closer to Rome than it does now

'Ancestral genes'? NO idea what they mean, all I can do is report it. I've used inverted commas for that reason. (OK, I do have some idea, the official Maremmano has been so 'improved' that it is almost all thoroughbred now, with nothing left of the real Maremmano but its famous nasty temper; that hasn't happened to these Lazio horses, so they have more 'old' genes and fewer TB). I was curious that you took out the bit about the research being unpublished, which I thought helped to justify the fuzzy discussion; but NP

I'll add some conversions

'action' is Brit-English, not just gaits but how the beast moves in each of them. It may be old-fashioned Brit-English, I wouldn't know. 'Well-marked' was the best I could do, obviously not good enough. Original is 'rilevate', meaning 'in relief'. Courageous, on the hand, you know; you've ridden a brave horse and you've probably had to ride a fearful one too. These are horses that go wherever you ask them, and never, ever say 'sorry, but my policy doesn't cover that'.

We do say "action" here too, and basically a similar definition, but "well-marked" is the problem word -- so by "in relief" would be something like "crisp" or "distinct." You have seen these animals, what would just a very vernacular description be? Sort of a short, snappy-trappy action like some harness ponies & the livelier Fjord/Icelandic types. Or more high action like a Hackney? Or of a movement like a Clydesdale or Friesian sort? Of more of a saddle horse stride like the "daisy-cutter" action of a Thoroughbred hunter-type animal??? Hmmm. Help me visualize the action, maybe we can figure out the way to phrase it.-- MTBW

he-he, I CAN'T say why the 1910 description is there, because that would be original research; I have to leave the reader to see how similar the two are, right?

Actually, I don't think it's [{WP:SYNTH]] to note the obvious with an intro to smooth the transition like, "the 1910 breed description has many parallels to the modern breed standard. Expert X said..." You kind of did this already, but maybe hit it a wee bit harder. --MTBW

I read stock horse a while ago; as far as I remember not just Europe but all of South America is pretty much unwritten as yet; it all comes from Spain, as you know. If I ever get to the end of the breeds I might do some of that. The correct word for 'open-range' in English is probably pastoral farming, but I don't plan to change it. And I managed to avoid saying 'cowboy' anywhere!

Probably worth thinking about changing "open range" to "pastoral farming" or "transhumance" (or whatever) at least via a piped link, just to be precise, given the better-known meaning of "open range." (and a bad movie of the same title, ;-P). The stock horse article is mostly a list, and more can always be added. What is quite fun about the Spanish tradition is tracing it back even further, there are some interesting, and often headed, debates on the topic. Montanabw^(talk) 22:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

I'll fix Mussolini. Thanks for your comments, Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 23:42, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

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