Talk:Carmelite Brewer Christie

Reasons for this page

Given a Wikipedia push in 2016 to have more entries about women in Wikipedia, I thought my great grandmother deserved a page of her own. She was one tough minded and practical person who literally saved 1000s of lives in April 1909 and countless others from 1915-1919. This is in addition to the work she did with women and families. The causes of events that surrounded her from 1895 to 1920 are still controversial as to what is fact and what is fiction. I have had the privilege of reading a 300 page transcribed and typed version of her diary from 1915-1920. Her diary tells of what she saw and was trying to do. Carmelite is an example of a female activist of the late 19th century, whose worldly focus was as much as improving the lot of women and education in Turkey as it was in the spreading "the good news". Rcollman (talk) 17:26, 7 December 2016 (UTC)& Rcollman (talk) 15:15, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

Inclusion vrs Exclusion

I have made contributions to Wikipedia since 2006. I am generally in the inclusionist camp of Wikipedia editors. This page should be included because Carmelite represents more than just herself. She was another social action orientated women out of the Rockford Seminary in the 1870s. She was an early American missionary. She was a promoter of woman's health, education and entrepreneurship. She witnessed and tried to offer people assistance in events that still have controversy surrounding them today.

Resources

About Carmelite's diaries

• Arnold J. Toynbee's "Blue Book" co authored with Bryce (Officially: The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915-1916 : Documents Presented to Viscount Grey of Falloden by Viscount Bryce) quotes from Carmelite's diary. Since Carmelite is still in Turkey when it was published in 1916, she is not identified. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.78.106.221 (talk) 12:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

• "Tarsus American School 1888-1998" by Allan Alfred Bartholomew Bryn Mawr:1989 which uses Carmelite's personal diary (1915-1919)to document deportation camps in Anatolia.[1]
• Diary of Carmelite Brewer Christie 1915-1919" 300 pages. Unpublished, transcribed and typed by her daughter-in-law. Copy at Minnesota Historical Society and several copies are in the family's possession.

• If there might be any way to contact the MHS and maybe ask them to upload a .pdf to commons, that might help a lot. It might even be worth transcribing over at wikisource. John Carter (talk) 01:11, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

A relative who was/is in the process of writing a book on missionaries in Turkey, said the typist did not make an exact true copy. I have made a PDF of a copy of a loaned typewritten copy of the diary (1915-1920) but I am not sure who owns the rights to it. Rcollman (talk) 02:09, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Hathitrust has a searchable but not viewable copy of Alan Bartholomew's dissertation, basically it just tells you how many times her name appears. You can easily see that there is much in it about Carmelite and not just her husband. I'm thinking our only shot on that one is to find someone who lives near one of the 7 libraries that has a copy of it. SusunW (talk) 16:42, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

I believe that there was a presentation within the last three years by an American Armenian scholar, who spent a lot of time with both the handwritten original and the transcribed typed copy of her diary. That was on my todo list. I viewed it online. Rcollman (talk) 02:09, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Lou Ann Matossian was the person who was researching Carmelite Christie's diary of 1915 to 1919. It has been a work in progress for many years. 74.78.106.221 (talk) 02:53, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

The Treatment of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire, 1915-1916: Diary of a Foreign Resident of the Town of Tarsus, Page 451

Other Papers on Carmelite Christie

• There is information about Carmelite in "Brother of Mine" edited by Hampton Smith 2010 by MNHS.org which contains letters from Thomas during the Civil War Smith, Hampton, ed. (2010). Brother of Mine. St. Paul, Minnesota: Minnesota Historical Society. ISBN 978-0-87351-810-9.
• There are several Armenian scholars and researchers who have gathered oral and written history that touch upon the Christies in Tarsus and "Mother Christie".

References

Common name

Was Brewer more known as Carmelite Brewer, Carmelite Christie, Carmelite Brewer Christie, or Carmelite Sarah Brewer? There seem to be multiple names used in the title of the article, the article and infobox, and these should be made consistent. Natg 19 (talk) 00:46, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Good point, I believe at birth she was Sarah Carmelite Brewer. In the 1860 Bradford, Lee, IL census she was listed as Carmelite 8. In 1870 she was Sarah 18. The family bible marriage lists her as S. Carmelite Brewer. In 1911 she signed an emergency passport as Carmelite Christie. She was Carmelite Christie 77 in the 1930 census in Pasadena CA. I believe I have seen something written by her husband who called her Carmie. The page probably should be called Carmelite Brewer Christie. Rcollman (talk) 01:58, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Women's names, throughout history are rarely consistent. If they are from a western country, often they take their husband's surname, a combination of their birth surname and husband's surname, or are referred to in the press as Mrs. Thomas/Joe/Bob/etc. It is typically impossible to refer to a woman by the same name throughout, as rarely do the sources conform to a uniform name. In rare instances, like Elizabeth Taylor, a woman might have the same name from birth to death, but that is often not the norm. Many women had careers under varying names, maiden name, first spouse name, second spouse name, etc. and trying to use a single name is impractical. As a general rule, she should be called whatever the sources call her at any given time and usually is referred to by surname. In this article, that approach is impractical because she worked with her husband and distinguishing between them is required. I would concur with your assessment Rcollman that the article should probably be titled Carmelite Brewer Christie, but would not remove the other names from the bio. She was given Sarah Carmelite Brewer as a birth name, as far as we can tell. She did use Carmelite Brewer to refer to herself and later signed documents as Carmelite Brewer Christie or Carmelite B. Christie. These are facts and don't need to be changed for some WP rule for consistency. SusunW (talk) 19:53, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Thx Susun. I was sloppy when I created the page. I think in MoodleDocs, as editor I could rename a page but not in this wiki. Know the long way (copy to new page, then create a redirect from the old (after erasing the content).Rcollman (talk) 21:58, 15 December 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.192.1.60 (talk)

I don't see anyone objecting, so I just moved it to Carmelite Brewer Christie. Simplest solution ;) SusunW (talk) 23:21, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Random quote from the Diary

Carmelite records in her diary some of the things that happened when TDC proposed to her and asked her father for her hand. When TDC proposed, he and Carmelite were wandering about "picking berries". They got lost and TDC climbed the tallest tree and spotted the road and Carmelite's horse. Later in her diary she writes this: "As he climbed a tree to get a wide and comprehensive outlook when we were lost in the woods, so has he always, when in difficulty, not fretted much about the nearby circumstances, but has risen above them and gotten up where he could see beyond, taken a broad and high view, never losing courage or cheer, but simply getting the lay of the land, so to speak, and then pushing boldly to his goal. He often remarks that beginning with getting a wife he has accomplished in the main the great things he proposed in his heart, and building up a big school, fitting young men for lives of usefulness, and always putting spiritual claims first. "First things first", as he would say." Carmelite's diary entry 28 July 1918.Rcollman (talk) 02:45, 15 December 2016 (UTC)