Talk:Camino de Santiago

Doctrinal evolution of cathedral in Catholicism

Hey all!

This is my first time using the Talk page, so go easy with me, and please help me learn the etiquette for this. I was doing some copy editing on the Introduction of the page and noticed a paragraph on the doctrinal evolution of the cathedral of Santiago de Compostela in Catholicism that seemed a bit out of place. I'm unsure the author of it. Firstly I'd like to ask, is this even relevant for this page? It seems to pertain more to the cathedral (which has its own page) than the Camino. Secondly, if it is relevant, could someone please elucidate on what this doctrinal evolution is?? The original author seems to hint at something about the symbolism of relics, tombs, etc. (?), but I don't feel confident in saying what exactly that is. Finally, if anyone has a source(s) for the pope quotes used, it would be much appreciated; the section is currently bereft of any citations. Shawrkat (talk) 03:50, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Total distance

Its total length is .... km.-Mazarin07 (talk) 16:25, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Depends on where you start. From Roncevalles about 800 km. From Tours about 2000, from Portugal I don't know. From Arles true Somport 1500 or so. From Kopenhagen about 3500. As there are many dozens of routes and starting points there is no single total length. Arnoutf (talk) 17:04, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

See also: Way of St. James (route descriptions)

Ok, thanks. I mentioned Roncesvalles-Santiago de C-lla 800 km. Just to make an idea.-Mazarin07 (talk) 18:29, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Pre-Christian origin

Finisterre, from the Latin Finis Terrae alludes to the westernmost point of Europe and is in three specific places: Galicia, Cornwall and Brittany, three of the more properly Celtic mainland territories. Moreover, the parallelism between the Galician and Breton Finisterre is emphasized by authors like ALARCÓN HERRERA in his In the Shadow of the Templars 1988.

The pilgrimage and the cult of the sun path is identified with the prehistoric symbol of the solar boat crossing the ocean to the west. This symbolism of the death of the Sun Road beyond was transmuted in classical times by the image of Charon crossing the Styx, which like the Solar boat transports the Hereafter from the east bank of the dead in search of the Promised Land . Rites that have survived until today, on the way to the more Western to die and be reborn in the gnostic and mystical plane banks. In this sense we can highlight the words of TW ROLLESTON, in his work The Celts, notes in this way, at pg. 62: "I believe that the full form of the megalithic symbol is the boat with figures and with the solar symbol above. These assume that the interpretation is correct, figures should be taken as representations of the dead on their journey to the afterlife "; (in this sense we can see how in the megalithic monuments, navetas take the form of an inverted boat shaped like other megalithic monuments In this regard, we can mention, for example, three analogies.'s's own shuttles, the Irish dolmens and the muogh Nevet of Malekula: _ On Navetas: They have the shape of a ship with the inverted keel; and are as numerous experts, the representation of the solar boat, inside which the funeral rites of passage took place hereafter. Furthermore. On the Irish dolmens, as burial chambers with ticket broker: They are structures formed by cairns or stone chips like the navetas resemble an inverted boat. Respect thereto, W.C. Borlase, in his Dolmens of Ireland, not only puts these megaliths in relation menorquinas navetas; but also with the Scandinavian burial mounds, the sepulchral entrerramientos in boats across the Baltic and other forms of burial developed in the Iron Age. _ On Nevet muogh: We can say that they were discovered by AB DEACON malecula on island in the Pacific, describing his work Malekula: A vanisshged People [1,934]. His work would be continued by JOHN LAYARD, the Stone Men of Malekula work, [1.942]. In this book, described as the inhabitants of Malekula ceremonial dolmen erected with blocks of coral, whose aim was to introduce the initiate in his sacred chamber for a time to be reborn to a new life: Knowledge; [as pick and Professor W. H. Rivers, in previous trials]. Meanwhile, the already mentioned A.B. DEACON, in Gnostic initiation of this distinguished company up to 32 degrees of refinement to reach the "Absolute Knowledge". In each and every one of these phases, played a vital role coral dolmen called muogh Nevet, [literally "Stone of Life"], which took three years to build; as well as the burial inside the camera, the initiate, a solar period of 30 days; in what was known as na-vot, ["chamber or place of rebirth"]). It shall also be observed through different traditions; the most important, is the path of the current Camino de Santiago, which in pre-Christian times already ran in order to perform the ritual of seeing the sun die on their way to the Hereafter.

Finisterre's also in Celtic villages yet to dig, it seems that even the church of Santiago was put in there to stop the Celtic paganism, paganism which can also be seen in the very cathedral of Santiago, before the cathedral there was something in that place that is oriented in the way that they did it the Druids at that time, plus the very bowels of the cathedral seem to have something in previous years it was believed he was a legend, despite the Catholic church denies all the data and not allows research

Can also highlight the current pilgrimage to San Andrés de Teixido; where according to tradition the pilgrimage is essential, since the Galician said he prays: "Vai or non foi morto live"; include the dates of the pilgrimages, where in addition to other dates as Pentecost have been fixed: from August 16 to September 9, (which corresponds to the date of the Celtic celebration of Lughnasadh), from September 9 to 29 the same month (coinciding with the Celtic festival of Alban Elued) and from 27 to 30 November (coinciding with the end of the feast of Samhuinn). In addition, and according to tradition the deceased not having gone to the shrine in life, is not accompanied by a family member at his death, a stranger in a reptilian form (note the Orphic connotation). While it can also stand out among the rites of pilgrimage to San Andrés de Teixido tradition of amilladoiros, testimonial pebbles which leaves behind him. The Rite (which is repeated on the Padron pedrón stones substituting coin), is identical to that developed by Celtic peoples, it was the custom to throw chinarros at the crossroads to ward off evil spirits. This rite reflected in the average age, identifies with the fact that the spells and pacts made ​​with the devil at the crossroads, (here in Tragedy Policiana, 1,547 AD, Sebastian Fernandez, referred to in his act XXII to this Indeed, when it says: "Alla yras with devil facer conjuxuros by encrucixadas"); Finally, still in force today is the rite of amilladoiro to achieve Cebreiro Cross on the pilgrimage route, or solar shed casters to healing springs to cure some diseases (almost everyone in the habit of throwing coins into the water is inveterate).

This coincides Celtic cairn: artificial mound of rocks or slabs used in burials from the Neolithic era and today form landmark or cairn, which in turn is identified with the Castilian term amillarar. Or in other peoples such as Hebrew, that at funerals or whenever visiting a grave is the habit of leaving a testimonial stone; rite which remains in force; (Notice how this tradition remained within Christianity in the habit of touching the rock of Golgotha ​​that is in the church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem, where there is also the practice of throwing coins). The same tradition of forming cairns at crossroads is also in obos Mongols, Tibetans and Kazakhs. Furthermore, the idea of ​​placing a stone on the graves is not limited to such cases; so the Ankou, which as recorded with his car to die, throws a stone thereof; and last but not least, the tradition of placing slabs and headstones on graves throughout the western area. Also, stand here the tradition of the "omphalos" type, as religious centers and abode of the souls of the departed; in which there were always sacred rocks or stones; (which can be linked with the Orphic connotation, cited above, and exemplified in stony monuments such as the currently known serpe in pedra da Coruña). Finally in relation to the tradition of death and resurrection of the Sun, is remarkable among Christianized traditional rites Danza das Areas in Finisterre during Easter to celebrate the death and resurrection of Christ; as before the death and resurrection of the sun was celebrated — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.165.51.89 (talk) 22:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Why 'Way of St James'?

This may be the English translation of the words 'Camino de Santiago', but it is not the name of the Camino de Santiago in English. No-one who does the Camino ever calls it that. Can we move this to 'Camino de Santiago' please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.79.129.66 (talk) 18:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

It is not merely a translation but the official English name, as for example illustated by the fraternity of St James. Camino de Santiago redirects here, so confusion is minimal. Arnoutf (talk) 20:32, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how a fraternity is 'official'. The people actually walking it are the 'official' people as much as the fraternity is, and they vastly outnumber the fraternity. So we should go with what they say. Calling it the Way of St James here looks like fuddy-duddy old English. This kind of thing confuses people. On the Camino foreigners say "So, are you having fun on the 'Way'" and all the anglophones have to explain "We don't call it that". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.79.129.66 (talk) 09:15, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

I actually walked it and called it Chemin St Jacques in France; as the French use that all the time, Camino de Santiago in Spain, which is the local language and St James Way when discussing with the English, and nobody ever misunderstood. But apparently the fact that I walked from the Netherlands and did not limit myself to the stretch in Spain does not count. Arnoutf (talk) 09:53, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

No, the fact that you walked all the way from the Netherlands does not 'count' more than the fact that someone else did not. Why on God's earth did you feel how far you walked would have any bearing whatsoever on this conversation? Non-native English speakers, looking for an English translation when speaking in English, would say 'Way of St James' on the Camino, but native English speakers talking among themselves would never say this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.79.129.66 (talk) 17:26, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I know some English speakers from the way/camino, do you? If not, me walking DOES count for something.

On the other hand, why does your statement, not supported by anything count as more than my personal experience, and the use of it by the fraternity of St James.

Of course you may have strong sources (but you need to present those), or you may have actually discussed this with each and any native English speaker in the world (or at least the majority - oh no wait - "native English speakers talking among themselves would never say this", you do indeed need each and every native English speaker in the world to support your claim), in which case I stand corrected. Arnoutf (talk) 19:15, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

I support a Camino de Santiago article as well as a way of St. James article, the Camino article representing the more secular interest in the Camino, and the St. James article representing the religious aspects. Any year's pilgrim statistics will show that about 50% of pilgrims getting the Compostella get it for religious reasons. They are well versed in the Catholic faith and the details in the current St. James articles. It appears to me that the religious faction controls the Camino de Santiago/St. James article at this time, and rigorously prunes out things that might be useful to the more secular pilgrim, such as route conditions, etc. In my experience in the United States, the Camino de Santiago is a much more widely known term for the route than is the Way of St. James. I suggest that the Camino de Santiago article be allowed to contain the more secular facts, and the Way of St. James article continue as it is at present. Since the religious/academic interests control this article at the moment, they will have to consent to this before it will happen. Just to be clear, I have web pages on the Camino de Santiago, and walking its routes in France, that I have been maintaining since 2003. They are excellent, useful links, more so than some of the official links that are allowed. I have added them, and they were deleted. Also my wife is a travel writer, with an award winning book on the Camino de Santiago, which I added, and it was deleted with some really inappropriate and inaccurate statements in the associated talk section.Backpack45scb (talk) 20:21, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I do not support this suggestion for several reasons

1) Camino de Santiago currently redirects here, so the confusion should be non-existent or limited at worst. However splitting the religious pilgrimage from the secular one would in my mind create a lot of confusion (with people looking for the religious stuff ending up at the long distance path and vice versa, and even worse, with people looking for the background behind this long distance path missing out on that)

2) While at the moment about 50% of pilgrims walk the route for secular reasons the religious origins are essential for the existence of this route (I walked it as an atheist all the way from my home town Delft, the Netherlands)

3) Whether or not your wifes travel book should be listed is utterly irrelevant to this topic. However, you might want to consult the archives where it was decided to limit the "see also" section to the absolute and utter minimum as there are literally ten's of thousands of books on the camino written over the last 1,000 years. We agreed only to list notable publications; and within those only the top publications. PS I think you are probably not the most neutral person to suggest inclusion of this publication as you have definitely a personal interest in getting it shown on Wikipedia, so I would drop this. Arnoutf (talk) 21:26, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Local language is Galician, so the name should be Camiño de Santiago.88.21.171.50 (talk) 22:20, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

The article name should be in English, there is not reason to write in Spanish since tye official natural name in destination is in Galician (not Spanish) and there are also nanes for this way in other languages like Portuguese or French.83.165.131.224 (talk) 23:37, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Santiago is the name of the place (destination). James is the name of the disciple of Jesus who came to Spain around 40CE. The invitations came for(from) the Jewish community in Santiago and their non-Jewish friends. They also served as sponsors for travel, stay and mission work. This occurred all over Europe, north Africa, central Asia, west Asia and south Asia. The people needed and wanted wisdom. The rulers of that period wanted to be ....JohnEC Jr (talk) 01:08, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

• Way of Saint James is appropriate. It's the English name. --evrik ^(talk) 01:10, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

Travel Links

Had a look at the links at the bottom. Removed a dead link. I'd suggest also removing http://www.caminosantiagodecompostela.com/ and http://www.santiago-compostela.net/ which both seem old and out of date.

And I'd suggest adding http://gospain.about.com/od/caminodesantiago/a/camino_santiago.htm The writer is a well known Spain travel writer (I heard him on the BBC a few days ago talking about Pamplona) and he did the Camino in 2009, so it's very up to date. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.79.129.66 (talk) 18:36, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Both sites you suggest for replacement are of official organisations related to the camino and have been maintained until today (although they look a bit old fashioned). The link you removed as dead was dead as a deeplink, but the domain still exists (although it is going through massive rewriting). Please be more careful in removing dead links, try to find higher level entries as deeplinks often change witout the information actually going offline. The travellog of the writer you suggest is one of many dozens of similar sites from all over the world, adding such sites would inflate the see also section (we have been very strict on allowing new links on the list as it tended to grow, sometimes by as many as 50 links a month....). In short, I do not think your changes are improvements Arnoutf (talk) 20:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Reference to Science

reference #8 does not exist- there is no article by that name in that issue of Science. Mymerrytale (talk) 22:26, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

It appears correct to me. Here is the citation copied from JSTOR: Science. New Series, Vol. 303, No. 5666 (Mar. 26, 2004), p. 1979. Published by: American Association for the Advancement of Science. http://www.jstor.org/stable/3836327. Nurg (talk) 01:04, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

huge table of non official routes should not be here

Wikipedia is not an indiscrimate repository of hardly relevant information WP:INDISCRIMINATE frowns on Trivia WP:TRIVIA, demands reliable sources for anything contested WP:RS, should not pay undue attention to non-important facts WP:UNDUE.

The recently added, huge table with non-official routes and stopping places violates all above and is therefore making the article worse instead of better and it has to be removed unless each and every issue is satisfactorily solved BEFORE it is re-added.

Also, accusing a well established editor who removed some stuff violating all the above of vandalism; while doing so providing with a valid edit summary is at best WP:uncivil and bordering on a WP:personal attack. So no, I am not polite here. Arnoutf (talk) 19:39, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

• But I don't understand. All this routs were official Camino Ways!--Spacejam2 (talk) 19:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Which is where reliable sources are needed. The main variants of the Camino Frances are limited to the four French starting place (Arles, Tours, Vezelay, Le Puy). All other routes crossing France are often considered variants, and therefore non-official. So to list them as official you need a reliable source naming them so.

Even if such a source is provided, the level of detail gives these undue attention in this specific article. Another place, actively dicsussing the route descriptions Way of St. James (route descriptions) is probably a much better place for such detail information Arnoutf (talk) 20:09, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

From Sandomierz to Cracow you can go by The Lesser Polish Way and then by Via Regia or by The Silesian-Moravian Way. The Idea of St. James' Way is the Idea of reunifcation WHOLE Europe, not only Spain and France. The Portugese Way is also very popular in Portugal. In close future will be the Way from Vilnius and Kiev to Santiago. AND THEY ARE OFFICIAL!!!--Spacejam2 (talk) 22:02, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

But now you are talking about modern extensions, while most of the article is about the historic way. The question of course remains who has the authority to make "official extensions" to a way of about a 1,000 years old that is owned by no-one in particular, except perhaps by the Pope. (Or to put it bluntly, I have as much authority to include my backyard as part of the "official" way as most people around have to add their route). So again, here we definitely NEED reliable sources that express clearly that these extention exist and are considered to be official by people who have some authority over deciding that.

And anyway, your point does not address the issue of undue attention by creating the huge table in this specific article. Arnoutf (talk) 10:28, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

Historically, there have never been any "official" ways and there actually were never any rallying points or starting places (i.e. Tours, Vezelay, Le Puy). The idea of "there are four ways of ..." is a modern myth which has been reinforced in recent years through sucessful marketing. The map can stay. KathaLu (talk) 21:39, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

This was never about the map, but about a table that was on this page in 2010. The table listed many Polish starting points and Polish variants that did not mention all the (equally official) Dutch, Flemish (the 1430 Ghent altarpiece shows a scallop wearing pilgrim!), Danish, German, English, etc etc etc routes. So on one hand the table had a lot of detail, on the other it was extremely incomplete and biased towards Poland. The map is also incomple (eg misses out on the route passing Ghent) but generally fine! Arnoutf (talk) 07:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Name should be Camino de Santiago

I'm just back from walking the entire Camino Francés and not once did I hear an English speaker call it anything other than the "camino" or "camino de Santiago". It was certainly never called the "Way of St James" by English speakers. One non-English speaker asked a group of us one night what it was in English and we all agreed it is the Camino de Santiago. Even my guide, written in English by an English guy, was entitled the Camino de Santiago. This page should be changed to reflect this reality. 109.76.135.9 (talk) 17:43, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Entire Frances? - That includes both starting point at Roncevalles and Somport, did you really walk both (or did you pass one of the four French starting points, in which case I think your claim is vindicated even if you didn't see Somport through Arles). I didn't see the entire Spanish Frances, I only passed through St Jean Pied de Port/Roncevalles on route from Delft (the Netherlands) following Via Turonensis (although I went through Chartres to avoid hiking 3 days through Paris and suburbs). At that time (1998) the English pilgrims were referring to the route both as way of st James and as Camino (agreed, Camino in the international discourse being dominant). So, I do have first hand experience of the use of the phrase "Way of st James". A single observation is just not sufficient to change the article title (But to be honest, I would not object if majority suggests changing, as indeed "camino" is the most frequent use in most languages (besides French perhaps (Chemin de St Jacques)). Arnoutf (talk) 21:51, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

Me again. I started in St Jean and finished in Santiago which is what John Brierley defines as the Camino Francés. Prior to that he lists the various ways leading to St Jean under different names, as does this guide. Once you get past the first two weeks you live with the pain a lot easier and are walking a hell of a lot faster by the time you approach Santiago (especially if you begin during the night); your resilience has grown. Anyway, I would be very, very surprised if anything approaching a majority of speakers of English who walked it would have called it the Way of St James while doing so. 'Camino' walks off the English speakers' tongue a lot more fluidly and, acknowledging wikipedia's need for references in this regard, John Brierley can be the first source for its dominant use in everyday English relating to the Camino (I can get his exact quote). 109.78.46.48 (talk) 18:30, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

I know, the pain got less when I entered France after about 2 weeks. I do agree even in English majority may use Camino nowadays. If you want to move go ahead but please make sure the redirects are fixed (i.e. Way of St James should redirect to Camino). PS I did not refer to lengthy pre Spain approach to the Frances, only as far as I know the stretch Somport (more eastwards pass across Pyrenees) - Puente la Reina is frequently seen as an official variant on Frances (although it also sometimes called The Aragonese Way). Arnoutf (talk) 18:43, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

maintenance link collections

I reduced the ever expanding link collections. While there are 1,000s (if not more) websites, books and publications on the camino, some editors think their favorite should be here.

I removed obviously personal travellogues, commercial sites, and books where I could not see the notability of the book at all. I have as a rule kept books from 1995 in that are sufficiently notable to have an article on the book. Pre 1995 when the Camino was less popular I left books with a stated relation to the Camino in if at least hte author had an article.

Have I been too blunt? Please argue against me. These are the removed links:

• Spiritual Pilgrimages - Way of St. James and Kumano Kodo (UNESCO World Heritage pilgrimage routes) official joint website
• An article about the land and the people of Camino de Santiago
• Pilgrim community on the Camino de Santiago de Compostela
• Account of two horse back journeys along the St James Way and the via Francigena
• Colin Bowles and Elizabeth Best, The Year We Seized the Day
• Shirley MacLaine, The Camino
• Kevin A. Codd, To The Field of Stars: A Pilgrim's Journey to Santiago de Compostela, Wm. B. Eerdmans & Co., Grand Rapids, 2008. This is a day-by-day account of a Catholic priest's pilgrimage across Spain.
• Tracy Saunders, "Pilgrimage to Heresy: Don't Believe Everything They Tell You", a fictionalised account of the pilgrimage. Suggests (after Professor Henry Chadwick) that the tomb in Compostela may be the burial site of Priscillian, Bishop of Avila, executed for "heresy and witchcraft" by the Romans in 385 CE. (In Spanish as Peregrinos de la Herejía, Boveda 2009)
• Tim Moore, Spanish Steps and Travels with My Donkey: One Man and His Ass on a Pilgrimage to Santiago
• Hape Kerkeling, "I'm Off Then; Losing and Finding Myself on the Camino de Santiago"; the German comedian's account of his camino is said to be responsible for a marked increase in pilgrim travel on the route. The book was originally published as Ich bin dann mal weg: Meine Reise auf dem Jakobsweg.
• Julie Kirkpatrick, "The Camino Letters: 26 Tasks on the Way to Finisterre", Pyxis Press, 2010 (www.thecaminoletters.com) Arnoutf (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Too blunt? You weren't half blunt enough. Wikipedia isn't a travel guide. I've removed most of the links, and all of the links with guide and tourist info. Wikipedia is not the place for them - perhaps wikitravel is a better place. For those in doubt, read WP:EL on what links should be included, and which ones shouldn't. --HighKing (talk) 15:11, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

My post is 2 yrs old, more than enough time for a lot of new link pollution to creep in. Thanks for putting out the garbage ;-) Arnoutf (talk) 19:29, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

routes beyond iberian peninsula and france

From time to time editors add their local partition of the route that goes beyond the four French main starting places and the Iberian routes. All these early routes connect to the main routes in France (with the exception of Iberian routes).

So far, in this overview article we have not allowed routes beyond the main ones and Iberian routes. These are however summarised at Way of St. James (route descriptions).

My question is now, should we start adding routes more far afield, or should we stick with the big 4 + iberia?

If we agree on the first option, it is in my view essential (because of neutral point of view and undue focus on certain bits of information) to provide a comprehensive overview of the routes far afield instead of focussing on whatever route the editor knows (recently it was a Polish route ending somewhere near the German border). My preference would be to leave the long routes to the specific Way of St. James (route descriptions) and focus on the shorter routes here, but if there is a majority that sees otherwise, willing to reconsider. Arnoutf (talk) 17:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

File:Stjacquescompostelle.png

This needs to be translated from French, and expanded to cover other countries (Poland, for example). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 18:35, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree it should be translated.

I disagree it should be expanded, it should be shrunk rather than expanded in my view. The Spanish section, followed by the four French routes are the most important by several magnitudes compared to all else (followed perhaps by the Via de La Plata). These should therefor cover a dominant part of the maps. The inclusions of routes in Germany and Italy is somewhat arbritary already, although it shows there are routes extending beyond Arles-Le Puy-Vezelay-Tours starting points. Extending to Poland, Moscow or Singapore would unduly reduce the emphasis on the route in France and Spain and should not be done. Arnoutf (talk) 19:40, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

File:The Lesser Polish Way of Saint James.PNG Nominated for Deletion

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Some problems here?

I see some problems with the following sentences from the scallop shell section: "Two versions of the most common myth about the origin of the symbol concern the death of Saint James, who was killed in Jerusalem for his convictions about his brother, John. James had spent some time preaching on the Iberian Peninsula."

1. It is kind of mixing myth / legend with Biblical evidence. I don't think any scholar doubts today that St. James was killed in Jerusalem, but several doubt that he ever preached / was in Spain.

2. "Saint James, who was killed in Jerusalem for his convictions about his brother, John." That is definitively wrong, St. James was decapitated, according to Acts 12, 1-3 because of being a Christian.

Thoughts? SybilleY (talk) 10:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)

External Links

As there has been some discussion about the External Links section as well as some reverting, I wanted to bring the discussion out to the open. In my opinion, there are two links (see below) that do not meet the requirements of WP:ELNO (a en.WP guideline). T

• Camino de Santiago soundslide The entire French route in full screen photos with a soundtrack made from field recordings en route
• Virtual Visit Cathedral Santiago de Compostela

These two are both simply webpages with photos from pieces of the Way of St. James. Neither could count as a WP:RS. One of the two has been identified by the content editor as being his personal site. Also, as both are just for photos/music, neither really has any information that would be relevant to a reader. If the owners of said site wanted to have their photos seen by Wikipedia readers/editors, they should release said photos under a free license at WP:Commons. As these links have been removed and readded already, I believe a consensus should be come to before any further edits be done. -- ТимофейЛееСуда. 20:37, 4 February 2013 (UTC)

I've removed the links as they easily fail WP:EL. This article suffers more than most from spammy links. Please, feel free remove on sight. --HighKing (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Jenks24 (talk) 12:25, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

---

Way of St. James → Camino de Santiago – by far most common name in English, article should conform to WP:COMMONNAME Keizers (talk) 01:38, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

Web hits show "Camino de Santiago" is the most common name in English: : I did a search for "Camino de Santiago" (English pages, no Wikipedia) and got 516,000 hits. "Way of St. James" (English, no Wikipedia) got 386,000. Keizers (talk) 06:16, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Everyone calls it the Camino de Santiago or some version thereof. Red Slash 03:56, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support the current title suggests a street in London or York. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:12, 15 August 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Looking for Way of St James and Way of Saint James gives 448000+51000 is about 500,000 hits [1] / [2]. This is only marginally fewer than the Camino pages. This is no evidence that "everyone" calls it the Camino. In fact the difference is only about 3% which in my view is probably within the margin of error of the rather messy way search engines work. So this difference is not even evidence that it is more common (at all). Re: In ictu oculi: That the English name of a geography related topic sounds like an English geographical name (sic)is in my view not a strong argument. Arnoutf (talk) 17:30, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
  • Ngrams say a different story. [3] Quality sources are all but unanimous in preferring mostly use the Spanish title. Red Slash 21:42, 18 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Where did Google Books Ngrams became a quality label? Also if you add the non-abbreviated Saint to the mix the number for Way of... doubles, making it combined at about 25% of those using Camino. Hardly unanimous (which would be in my view 95% at least). Arnoutf (talk) 17:35, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
      • Good point about St v Saint. A 3:1 ratio is still pretty compelling, though. See WP:UCN and WP:SOURCES for the reasoning behind using ngrams. Red Slash 22:04, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose. I do think we should replace "St." with "Saint". Srnec (talk) 22:52, 15 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support per Red Slash. No such user (talk) 21:11, 19 August 2014 (UTC)
• Support as the common name. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 17:37, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Since when did 4/2 beoome consensus for a move? Arnoutf (talk) 16:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

It's actually 5:2 since I initiated the request and this support it. And besides no one defending "Way" can actually prove it's the *more* common name. Just because it was listed under "Way" originally does not give any more weight to that title. Keizers (talk) 20:22, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Actually that there is long standing consensus to name it way, and reconfirmation of that in several previous move requests (see archives) does give it more weight following Wikipedia guidelines. Also 5:2 is not consensus.

My main objection is however that the debate was not nearly concluded and only very few (7) users commented. So in my view the move was premature.

Also note that the Camino de Santiago hits were not corrected for references to roads named after St James, or the capital of Chili. Since James is a very important Saint in Hispanic culture I would expect many more of those than the equivalent use in English countries.

In addition, focusing on English language pages may give an inflated number. I agree that in international discourse Camino is much more common, but that means that many non-native English speakers will use that on their blogs. Since English is the de facto lingua franca of internet this may results in a fairly large number of English language pages written by non native speakers. Letting non-native speakers have a large say in determining the English language sounds like a bad idea to me.

So all in all I am not at all convinced that the difference is as large as suggested . Arnoutf (talk) 18:17, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Well in my case I am a native speaker from the US and have never used anything but Camino. Way of St. James sounds like hypercorrection or a literal translation to me. Of course that's not the reason to move the article title. Just sharing my personal experience Keizers (talk) 05:37, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Guess it has become known as that when it gained popularity from the 1980's onwards; while in the UK is has been known since about 1000 AD and was likely used under a (local) English name for most of the time since then which is far from unique (e.g. in Germany it is generally referred to as Jakobsweg). Anyway, it agree Camino is at this moment of time more common even in English so I can live with the move. Arnoutf (talk) 11:16, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

So on the English-language Wikipedia, we are now forced to use a foreign language name as a page title, even though we have an age-old English-language name for it! And worse, that foreign language name for it is only used along *part of* the route — admittedly a much-walked part, but try telling the French or Galicians that! Move it back, guys. It should be "St. James's Way" (with or without the ".") This is yet another sign that Wikipedia is no longer based on reason but on social conformity.... 04:55, 13 December 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.2.117.167 (talk)

Names in other languages

There used to be consensus we would limit the names in other languages to languages spoken in regions through which main routes passed. The main routes originate in France (via Frances) and a southern route in Portugal. In Spain the route crosses the Basque region and Castile before finishing in Galicia. Hence the consensus was to list five languages (France and Portuguese and 3 Spanish languages - Catalan only excluded because no main routes pass through the region).

This idea was overturned without discussion and an (in my view) arbitrary collection of translations was posted by User:Reinthal [[4]](For some obscure reasons many many German editors over the time added the German name Jakobsweg again and again and again so the invisible note made specific mention of this language not because the note was biased against German over any other language, but because German language editors with a proven history of POV pushing necessitated special mention in this case).

As there are no good reasons why (current listing) Italian, German, Dutch, Polish and Hungarian are included but not Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Estonion, Lithuanion, Latvian, Russian, Czech, Slovakian, Romanian, Bulgarian, Greek, Serbian, Croatian, Slovakian, Albanian, (and others) we are now at some serious risk of making this an arbitrary list of translations, something that we should definitely not want. I suggest we go back to a version with only few languages, and German (nor Dutch) being among those. Arnoutf (talk) 09:59, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I will be BOLD and remove this unsourced, completely irrelevant section entirely. Keizers (talk) 09:20, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps better to remove altogether indeed. So no objection from me for that bold move. Arnoutf (talk) 10:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Who's German? I have a good mind to report you both for racial profiling, Arnoutf and Keizers. You have both been doing enough damage on this page by letting it stagnate and treating it as your own personal fiefdom. But that seems to be your modus operandi. 16:49, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Why would limiting it to countries actually close to Santiago be racial profiling? But feel free to report it, as your remark is a clear violation of the assumption of good faith and can even be considered a personal attack. Arnoutf (talk) 18:15, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

: Let me spell it out for you, Arnoutf, YOU are guilty of racial profiling by assuming that I am German! You are in clear violation of Wikipedia policy by making racist assumptions about someone's background. 05:01, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

And on what exactly do you base that personal attack ? Arnoutf (talk) 09:36, 13 December 2014 (UTC)

Film and television cleanup

AS we had in the past with literature, we now have a seriously bloated TV/film section. I propose to clean up soon, using the following criteria for materials that can stay.

1. The movie, film or material is sufficiently notable that it has its own article on Wikipedia
2. The movie, film or material has a director or main actor that is sufficiently notable for his/her own article on Wikipedia
3. The movie, film or material received an important award, nomination for an award, or is shown at a major international festival (each of these sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article).

If you disagree, can you please come up with another suggestion to keep this section under control. Arnoutf (talk) 18:04, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

removed sections

• An Australian filmmaker walked the French Way from St. Jean Pied du Port to Santiago, documenting his experiences in a documentary called The Way (2004).

Reason for removal: Neither the (anonymous) film maker, nor the actual movie have any indication of being notable

• The film One Day in Europe (2005), directed by Hannes Stöhr, was nominated for Golden Bear award at the 2005 Berlin Film Festival and comprises four stories which take place on a single day, in four different cities (Berlin, Istanbul, Moscow, and Santiago de Compostela).

Reason for removal: Movie is not about the way but about tourists in 4 European cities - ie off topic

• In "Pilgrimage to Galicia" (2008), episode 2 of the PBS food and travel television series Spain... on the Road Again, part of the pilgrimage route is walked and described.

Reason for removal: The episode on its own is not notable. Nor is the director

• In March 2011, The Huffington Post featured an article and short documentary video on walking the Camino de Santiago.

Reason for removal: Neither the specific article, nor documentary are notable in their own right.

• In 2012, Danish TV & radio personality Mikael Bertelsen walked part of the route, from León to Santiago, in the Nordic Christmas calendar series Bertelsen på Caminoen. Despite early skepticism from the religious community, who feared that the journey would be ridiculed in Bertelsen's usual style, the series was very well received.

Reason for removal: No indication for notability on English Wikipedia of either Bertelsen, nor the specific series

• Walking the Camino: Six Ways to Santiago (2013), a documentary produced and directed by Lydia B. Smith, is about six strangers from around the world who walk the Camino de Santiago.

Reason for removal: No indication for notability on English Wikipedia of either Smith, nor the actual documentary

• In 2014 National Geographic Channel showed worldwide "Walking The World - The Camino De Santiago - My Journey" 6x60mins presenter Chris Newland Director Jan Russell. The ultimate real life adventure/ long distance walking series! Features The Camino de Santiago.Filmed over two months, every step of the Camino was beautifully filmed which immerses viewers in history, music, culture and the stories of the fascinating people that take this incredible journey. Photos film clips and Camino info can be found on the official site for the tv series thecamino.com.

Reason for removal: No indication for notability of the actual documentary nor the presenterArnoutf (talk) 08:40, 14 February 2016 (UTC)

References

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1980s numbers (sourcing)

User:Jjhantsch recently changed the phrase "By the 1980s, only a few pilgrims per year arrived in Santiago." (a) to "By the 1980s, only a few thousand pilgrims per year arrived in Santiago, although in several years only a few hundred pilgrims received the official Compostella." (b). While neither statement was sourced, the first one (a) is not very specific and aligns with numbers from the bureau of pilgrims on awarding the Compostella (see later on in the article Camino_de_Santiago#As_tourism). The second claim (several thousands - (b)) is however backed up by no source. While I do tend to think these numbers may be likely, I would be against adding such a quantification without a source. I hope we can find one; but until that time it should not be added per WP:V. Arnoutf (talk) 10:02, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Did you read the sources you list? The second statement is backed by the sources listed. It specifically identifys the numbers listed as "Pilgrims receiving the official Compostella" not as all pilgrims. Official pilgrims is a subset of pilgrims. The first statement is not supported by statements you list. JJ Hantsch 13:16, 3 February 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jjhantsch (talk • contribs)

Yes. That why I think your text is likely true. However, the subset may still be 99.9999999% of the total set. To quantify to a few thousand/year you simply need to provide a source that supports >2000 for each year. I have edited the section to reflect the number is about registered pilgrims Arnoutf (talk) 17:32, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone have 2021 numbers?

Sunday July 25, 2021 has passed and one hopes pilgrimage numbers might be found to update this page. In addition, I believe that the next occurrence of a Sunday on July 25th will be 2026, please review edits to "Pilgrimage as tourism" for accuracy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.212.150.173 (talk) 23:35, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Camino edit reverts?

For my better understanding of the reasoning/so I can better participate in edits in the future, could you explain why you reverted the edit to the Selected Literature section of the Camino de Santiago page? I'm still confused why authors who aren't significant enough to have their own pages are significant enough to be Selected Literature?

And I'm especially confused as to why an author adding a link to buy their book on Amazon is permissible? 24.148.60.37 (talk) 04:39, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

• @24.148.60.37: First, I saw no "amazon links," but I'm not sure that is even a rule. Many authors do not have wikipedia pages. I don't think that author has to be notable for their work to be a resource. --evrik ^(talk) 14:18, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

  As far as the Amazon link, it's still there, you put it back. And I'm thinking of "Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a battleground, or a vehicle for propaganda, advertising and showcasing." from the What Wikipedia Is Not page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#PROMO 24.148.60.37 (talk) 16:22, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

Disputed map

I have added {{Disputed map}} to the article as it incorrectly depicts Austria instead of Slovenia and Croatia on the right. If the map depicts the subject matter of this article fine, it may perhaps be cropped; otherwise, please replace it with another map. --TadejM ^{my talk} 12:40, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

This map is intended much more to show the routes of the various Caminos of St James, than to define the modern-day boundaries of various European countries. As you indicate, it might address your comments somewhat better if it was cropped, or the word Osterreich moved upwards and other colours added to show boundaries between Austria, Slovenia and Croatia. For example on the map there is a long-enduring west-bound camino starting at Budapest (in Hungary) (which lies off the map) to Wein, Linz, Salzburg, Innsbruck, etc (and then westward to Santiago de Compostela) which is shown by a black line with red town / city markings. Many of these places are in Austria - Osterreich on the map - such as Wein, Linz and Salzburg. There are / were other routes in this area, such the route below the one I've just referred to, that don't have location names; and some other routes not shown - from: for example, Graz to Salzburg, from Zagreb to Salzburg and Zagreb to Graz. 79.79.233.66 (talk) 18:02, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

I agree the maps is a schematic map to show the rough outlines of the routes in Europe and does not aim to provide a correct representation of the countries of Europe. E.g. Benelux are no countries (but the collaboration between Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg), Andorra is omitted, the UK and Poland are not named. This seems fair to me given that it is about showing the routes and putting all that detail would obscure that message. I have seen maps like these many times for the Camino and there is hardly ever a complaint. Of course if there is a better map that still maintains sufficient clarity and simplicity that would be welcome. I would invite the original poster of this thread to provide such alternatives themselves; i.e. constructively working towards such an improvement rather than just calling for other to solve this. I will check back here in a few weeks and if there is no further follow up I suggest to close this and remove the tag. Arnoutf (talk) 18:50, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

I have been constructive and have pointed out the issue of misinfomation with this map, tagged the map here and on Commons and brought the issue to the talk page. This is a good-faith constructive contribution. Thank you for pointing out further issues with the map that I have not noticed earlier, like Andorra being left out. This seems like a major deficiency given the course of the trail. I strongly disagree with the retention of incorrect information in articles whatever it may be whether tangential or not. As far as I'm concerned, the article is better without any map than a false map. So if you wish you can remove both the map and the tag. However, if you are inclined to find a suitable map, it will be by all means much appreciated. --TadejM ^{my talk} 02:18, 19 May 2023 (UTC)

The original poster has mentioned a constructive approach, however, merely flagging up an issue is not necessarily constructive as the mere flagging of a supposed issue is not the solution. The suggestion that the map could be removed without providing an alternative is clearly not constructive. Since this thread (nor the other places the original poster flagged up this issuesin January) has lead to further discussion or suggestions for solution it seems that nobody has deemed this issue important enough to take further action. Therefor I removed the template per WP:WTRMT:8. Arnoutf (talk) 10:49, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

I would like to add that I am also bothered by an erroneous / incomplete map. One of the principles in map-making is to show all relevant data whenever possible and in this case, it would clearly be possible to include national borders of Slovenia, Croatia, Andorra, Belgium, Luxemburg, the Netherlands, Liechtenstein, as well as correct incorrectly drawn borders of Portugal. The ommission of these borders, while others were drawn is simply bad map making. Either all national borders are included or none. You are asking for a constructive approach, but that can only be provided by someone with technical knowledge to create a new map, which I unfortunatelly cannot do. 193.77.189.225 (talk) 08:25, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

The Peace Movement

Before and during the founding of the League of Nations the Way of St James (Camino de Santiago) served as a meeting place for "brothers and sisters for peace", since there were many guesthouses along the Way, and each guesthouse also served as a meeting place. Their writings are much read today, and their members would have included personalities such as Rene Cassin, Carl Jung, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin, Max Weber, Lujo Brentano, Hans Ehrenberg, Eugen Rosenstock-Huessy, Franz Rosenzweig, Martin Buber, Carlos Philipps, Sigmund Freud, Victor Mordechai Goldschmidt and many more. JohnEC Jr (talk) 07:18, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

• @JohnEC Jr: If you can document that, add it in to the piece. --evrik ^(talk) 17:44, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

The documentation for this is only in the personal diaries of many visionaries in the Peace Movement, and in the novels (stories) written by Carlos Philipps (Zurich, Switzerland). Maybe also Franz Kafka. It is plausible that Rene Cassin bequeathed his "peace diaries" to the International Institute for Human Rights (Strasbourg). It is not evident if Max Weber did likewise in Heidelberg, or whether this was removed in the turmoil of the 1940's. JohnEC Jr (talk) 21:36, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

That makes addition problematic as we need reliable and findable evidence of such claims. Arnoutf (talk) 07:30, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

This should be researched in the archives of the International Peace Bureau (Geneva), International Committee of the Red Cross (Geneva), Inter-Parliamentary Union (Geneva), Women's International League for Peace and Freedom (Geneva), and International Institute of Human Rights (Strasbourg). Would that be good enough as sources?JohnEC Jr (talk) 11:49, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Mind you - that may still be original research (please check WP:OR. But if these institutes have secondary sources on this, and a reference to these can be provided it may suffice. But that means someone should first (a) put in the effort locating these sources (b) extract the information and (c) check that the previous steps do not constitute original research (which given that some of the ideas you mention above are primary sources is not trivial). So even if someone volunteers, actually goes to these archives, finds the sources there is still a good chance that they are merely personal account and reflections, any interpretation of which may not be admissible for inclusion. Not sure whether we have a volunteer to dig through these archives in the first place - and without such volunteer further discussion seems moot. Arnoutf (talk) 13:21, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

It would seem that the World Council of Churches (Geneva) is actively engaged in these matters since many decades or so. The books on these matters and conferences are internal to their organisation, that may suffice, is that so? Similarly with the Vatican. All their special books are not listed in the public domain. JohnEC Jr (talk) 15:18, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Unlikely. Secret sources can never be reliable sources, since they cannot be checked by others. The books need not be in the public domain per se (most novel are not) but they should be accessible to everyone (if they want to purchase a copy). So a reference to a "purchasable" source may be ok, to a secret internal document not. Arnoutf (talk) 16:44, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Would a reference to the libraries be suitable, e.g. the Vatican Library (Rome)?JohnEC Jr (talk) 20:41, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean, but a reference to a specific source within such library might be suitable (if the analysis in that source gives a relevant interpretation). A broad reference to an entire library is definitely not sufficient. Arnoutf (talk) 10:45, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

The library at the University of Zurich is an open access library, for members of the University. The Vatican library in Rome is with restricted access, for members of the Vatican only.JohnEC Jr (talk) 14:41, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Please provide specific named sources in either before continuing this. As regardless of the status of a library we must have specific named source. Arnoutf (talk) 18:46, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

The most reliable sources would include the Jesuits, though their libraries are not publicly accessible.JohnEC Jr (talk) 07:18, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

We start getting into repetitions. Sources must be specifically named and accessible for scrutiny. If you cannot provide such sources (and given the repetitive references to libraries and Jesuits (neither are specific sources) I strongly suspect you have no such sources at hand) it makes no sense to consider this thread. Please read WP:DEADHORSE. Arnoutf (talk) 19:34, 3 July 2023 (UTC)

Our friends, (International Council of Christians and Jews), have access to these libraries. Our communications with them are ongoing, JohnEC Jr (talk) 09:54, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

May I add the following quotation, from the Book of Proverbs 1:20; "Out in the open wisdom calls aloud, she raises her voice in the public square". This book was compiled during the times of king Solomon, son of David.JohnEC Jr (talk) 03:32, 5 July 2023 (UTC)