Talk:Bu Xiangzhi

Material removed

I agree that the material that was recently removed, restored, and removed again doesn't need to be there. Those details are not needed and it does not appear that McClelland was a Life Master at the time. At the time he didn't quite have a USCF master rating. Bubba73 ^{(the argument clinic)}, 05:47, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Including this material would give it undue weight. A GM plays hundreds or thousands of games in his career, and will lose many of them, including the occasional major upset. The success or lack thereof of a player is determined by overall results (How many points did he/she score? What place did he/she finish?), not the result of individual games. It is thus appropriate to focus on overall results ("he scored 7 out of 9 at the Podunk Open, tying for first with Mr. Mxyzptlk") rather than individual games ("he got thrashed by so-and-so" or "tail-ender X pulled off a stunning upset of him"). (If the "upsetter" has a Wikipedia article, it may be appropriate to include it there, e.g. Viktors Pupols' win over Bobby Fischer). Incidentally, I also question whether the cited source, Sam Sloan's www.anusha.com, qualifies as a reliable source. Krakatoa (talk) 01:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

And that source doesn't even say who said that. Bubba73 ^{(the argument clinic)}, 03:55, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes - "The loss was seen by some as a question of whether Bu was truly grandmaster strength" is a classic example of weasel words. Krakatoa (talk) 04:04, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Surname vs. given name

Can someone confirm Xiangzhi is the surname, as there seems to be mixed up surname vs. given name use everywhere online (including the FIDE card, which would be mistaken). And if Xiangzhi is the surname, is there any issue w/ referring to the subject using that name (as is done in other bios), rather than how is currently done in the article, using "Bu"? Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Not sure I fully understand the problem. The Chinese people, unlike westerners, use family name first. His family name, Bu, is expressly given at the top of the article to avoid any confusion. FIDE cards use family name then forename in every case, e.g. Robson, Ray. Similarly, they have used Bu, Xiangzhi. Hence, they have observed the 'family name/forename' consistency within their system. Maybe your concern is that FIDE are inserting the comma on Chinese names, implying that the name has been reversed, when it hasn't? I'm sure most people would consider this a misleading detail, but I'm no expert in writing search programs, so perhaps the alternative was a logistical problem. Brittle heaven (talk) 12:00, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for responding. I missed seeing that hatnote (thx for pointing out). Also I didn't know re Chinese name forms (thx for educating!). It's very confusing though ... for e.g. "Ma" is Yo-Yo Ma's Chinese surname, so why is the article surname last (Yo-Yo Ma) and not first (Ma Yo-Yo)!? In addition this image from the current article confused me:

(The tourney organizers printed Aronian's surname on Aronian's card, but they printed Bu's given name, not his surname, on Bu's card. [Were they as confused as me do you suppose!?]) Thx again, Ihardlythinkso (talk) 02:44, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

It's true. There are lots of tournament organizers who get it wrong. And Yo-Yo Ma is more correctly Ma Yo-Yo (see the transcription 'show/hide link' in his infobox), but the issue there is that westernized/American Asians often prefer to fully integrate with the west by conforming to our system. It's similar with Indian names - again, they use family/forename at home, but perhaps more readily than the Chinese, adapt to our western format, probably as a result of their colonial heritage. I noticed that the Hoogeveen Open organizers last week were using Sachdev Tania which was 'technically' correct, but it's rare to see her name written that way, and when you get L'Ami-Tania on the live game link, it frankly looks odd. Humpy Koneru is perhaps the one that gets confused the most - I have heard it said that she prefers that people use Koneru Humpy - but most sources do the western switch-around regardless. Again, there is a hatnote for guidance. Brittle heaven (talk) 12:02, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

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