Talk:Assyrian rebellion

Reverting properly sourced information

@Glane23: can you please explain why you keep reverting when the main source used in this article "The Emergence of Kurdish Nationalism and the Sheikh Said Rebellion, 1880–1925" states the people were Assyrian. "One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Sebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion." Nestorian is a theology of christianity that is incorrect and does not apply to Assyrians and was incorrectly used sometimes to describe them. The Assyrian people page explains this as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_people

TukultīApilEšarra (talk) 20:24, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

Copying my reply to your message on my Talk page: @TukultīApilEšarra: As I said before, the place to discuss changing the subject of the article is the article Talk page, not here. You may be completely correct that the article subject and even its title should be changed, but you need consensus to make such changes. Wikipedia works by consensus amongst its volunteers and that is reached through discussion, which is why each article has its Talk page. You are the one seeking the change and thus the one who must convince the community that the change is warranted. You are new around here, so you might want to read Wikipedia:Consensus and perhaps Wikipedia:BOLD,_revert,_discuss_cycle, just so you know I am not blowing smoke.

I reverted your edits which changed the name of the article subject (Nestorian -> Assyrian) without a consensus to do so. It is that change that needs consensus. Geoff | ^{Who, me?} 22:39, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

RfC about the use of the term nestorian

Should the article subject be changed from Nestorian to Assyrian? I explained my reasoning on the talk page;

the main source used in this article "The Emergence of Kurdish Nationalism and the Sheikh Said Rebellion, 1880–1925" states the people were Assyrian. "One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Sebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion." Nestorian is a theology of Christianity that is incorrect and does not apply to Assyrians and was incorrectly used sometimes to describe them. The Assyrian people page explains this as well: Assyrian_people

1. Yes
2. No

TukultīApilEšarra (talk) 01:24, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

*Comment: I should've just looked at your source first. It's just a bad source, in that it's using antiquated language. When I look at his footnotes, he is translating the Arabic exonym (usually pejorative) "Nasrani" incorrectly to Nestorian due to is commonplace usage as a misnomer for Syriac Christians (whether they self-identity as Assyrian, Chaldean, Aramaean, or what). It actually derives from "Nazarene". But anyway, by that time, in that place, they definitely identified as either Assyrian (vast majority) or Chaldean.

This is what your source says (p.126-127):

Nothing can better describe the great amount of energy, men, money, materials, and time that the Turkish government spent on trying to suppress and contain Kurdish rebellion and Kurdish nationalism than the admission of the Turkish armed forces that of the eighteen armed engagements between 1914 and 1938 that the armed forces were involved in suppressing, seventeen occurred in Kurdistan. One of these was the Assyrian (Nestorian) rebellion of 3-4 September 1924 of Beyt Şebab, which, as indicated above, was itself very much related to the Sheikh Said rebellion.

In other words, of the major nineteen military engagements in which the Turkish armed forces participated from 1914 and 1938, all but two were against or connected with efforts to suppress Kurdish rebellions and nationalism. Only two engagements, that of Menemen in December 1930 and the action in Alexandretta (Hatay), were not connected with the Kurds.

In the post-World War II period, with the exception of Korea (1951 —1953) and Cyprus (1974-present), Turkish armed forces' actions have been solely against the Kurds. For historians of Turkey not to record or to recognize this fact is akin to studying the history of the United States without studying the history and impact of its black population or studying the history of the Soviet Union without mentioning the influence or impact of the Muslims.

But I think the author has got all muddled up - and I'm not surprised, looking at the state of his prose. I don't think there was any Assyrian or Nestorian or Christian rebellion or incident of any sort in September, 1924, at Beyt Şebab. Every source I can find says it was a garrison of the Sheykh's Kurdish fighters, supported by riling up local Naqshbandi Kurds. I can't find any mention of any Christian involvement at all - accept as alleged victims of Sheikh Said's rebels. - EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 09:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Horrible source but I'm busy, first one that came up: Macfie, A.L. (2014). Profiles In Power: Ataturk, Routledge. (p. 160-1)

"Thereafter, events progressed rapidly. In September Kurdish nationalist organized a mutiny of Kurdish troops stationed at Beyt Şhebab [modern day Beytüşşebap], a small garrison town in the neighbourhood of the Iraqi border, which resulted in a mass desertion: and in Feburary 1925 they called on the tribes in the Dersim region once again to rise. On this occasion many of the tri)bes, mainlu Sunni, members of the Nakhsbandi order, responded. During the following weeks, Sheikh Said and his followers, marching under the green banner of Islam and calling for the restoration of the Caliphate and the Şheriat [Sharia], advanced rapidly on Elazığ and Diyabakir, sacking villages, looting banks and shops and occupying government offices."

I've scoured through three books on the Assyrian genocide, a history of the Syriac Church, and an antiquated and horribly written one called "THE NESTORIAN CHURCHES: A CONCISE HISTORY OF NESTORIAN CHRISTIANITY IN ASIA FROM THE PERSIAN SCHISM TO THE MODERN ASSYRIANS" (1978) and none of them mention any Christian involvement in the Sheykh's rebellion. EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 09:53, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@EnlightenmentNow1792: it actually was not a rebellion. I will look to have that changed as well. It was a battle that took place between Assyrians that returned to Hakkari after the genocide and the Turkish army and their allies. I added a much better source but someone kept reverting it because I put Assyrian instead of Nestorian. Here is my edit with a source from an Assyrian leader's war diary who participated in the battle: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Nestorian_rebellion&oldid=1064575148
You're right this battle had nothing to do with any Kurdish rebellion. That's why I was adding more detail and removed the part about it being related to a dispute with the British over Mosul as there is no source stating that. For now I'm just trying to have it changed to Assyrian instead of Nestorian since Nestorian is an incorrect theology used to describe members of the church of the east. The people in this incident were from Hakkari and they identified as Assyrian. TukultīApilEšarra (talk) 19:12, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@TukultīApilEšarra: do you have a copy of this source you're using that you might share? (Assyrians and Two World Wars by Yaqou D'Malik Ismael?) I really don't feel like it's worth buying, but I am somewhat confused by what you have written so far... EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 20:01, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@EnlightenmentNow1792: I have a kindle copy and can paste the section about this battle but I'm not sure if that's allowed on wikipedia. It was pretty much Assyrians returned to Hakkari without permission of the Turkish government. Then a Kurdish Agha lied to Assyrians saying that the Turks are coming to destroy them so when Assyrians met with the Turkish vali they shot him and killed some Turkish soldiers and a governor (because they thought the Turks were planning to expel them from Hakkari when they actually just wanted to know if the Assyrians were coming to live their as citizens or were acting on behalf of the British). Then the Turks came with their army and the battle started. Assyrians were going to push into Turkey but the British did not allow and that was the end of it. TukultīApilEšarra (talk) 20:26, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@TukultīApilEšarra: Of course Wikipedia allows it, you can paste several pages of a book before you come close to breaching copyright. But I've really gotta insist, there was no rebellion. And it seems to me some of the text you've written confuses the acts of Assyrian troops fighting with the British against the Ottomans in WWI, and the period of re-settlement in the 1920s Mandatory Iraq. I have quite a good book here somewhere.... EnlightenmentNow1792 (talk) 20:39, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

@EnlightenmentNow1792:Here is the section about this battle in the book:
At the start of 1922, the inhabitants of Tyareh and Tkhouma had returned, without permission from the Turkish government, and reestablished their ancient villages. Those that were within the borders of the Turkish government. Due to that in June of 1924 the Vali of Van wrote to Auli Beg, Agha of the village of Chal stating, “Let the Assyrians know not to worry at all about our trip to them and only the governor of Julamerg and I are coming to meet with them and asking about two points. First, if they have come and established here by the force of the British then they must leave the country in peace and return. Second, if like all simple Rayats they inhabit tranquilly then we welcome them in peace as is the arrangement with all the countrymen.” But the aforenamed Agha did not do as the Vali had requested of him. As was retold by Malik Yonan of Tkhouma the Agha sent Salimu d’Haspi of the village of Gozaresh to Malik Gilyana of Tkhouma saying, “I as a faithful friend have come to inform you that a plot has been prepared by the Turkish government for your expulsion from this country. After a short period of time the Vali will come to meet with you. Do not let him entice and enchant you with sweet words. He will linger in the village of Chal until the Turkish forces arrive who are coming by way of Artush to surround you for a final annihilation.
After four days Bzeedo of the village of Maropan also arrived and informed Khiu Barkho of Mazraya of the same information that Salimu had given to Malik Gilyana. In July 1924, the Tkhoumis were again informed by those friends saying, “The Vali has left Julamerg and is on his way to meet with you.” Then Malik Yonan Bar Daniel with three armed men went up to greet him in the Rkhaneh mountain, which is used as grazeland in the summer. From there they saw the Vali with the governor and ten other soldiers coming on the way. Then the aforenamed Malik and Breekha d’Bet Samano went to meet with him. The rest of the men took care as not to be seen. The Malik and Breekha were stopped by two guards before they reached the Vali. They [guards] started speaking Turkish and those [Assyrians] in Kurdish and could not understand each other. Then they started signing to each other with their hands. With that a young man named Georges arrived and the Turks saw that they were now three. One of the guards backed up and lowered his rifle from his shoulder. Then Georges rushed and ignited his rifle in his chest without aiming but did not hit him and the same for the Turks. The ones who had stayed back immediately attacked them and killed the governor among six soldiers and took the rest as prisoners. The Vali was slightly injured in the back of his hand and they brought them down to Tkhouma. After four days they took them among seven men to surrender them to the British government in Amediya. However, on the way Khoshaba Yosip of Leezan valley met up with them on the bridge of Gemaneh. He asked them what the reason was for the unfortunate mishap they did. They replied that they were informed of everything by their neighbors. Then Khoshaba as was his habit shook his head and said we are very disappointed at the big error you have made because again you have been deceived just like the first deception with the destruction of the faithfulness and trust that was between us and the Turks, by those neighbors in 1915. Then he took them by force and with a group of his own men delivered them to Chal. There they met up with some British officers but what they discussed with each other is unknown. The English returned to Amediya and the Vali went back to Julamerg.
Then Major Denton and Rab-Khaila Dawid were visiting with the mountain Assyrians and they were in Chamba of Malik Ismael as guests. The Malik showed his disappointment to Major Denton at the huge wrong the Tkhoumis did to the governor and the Vali. Without a doubt this incident will have a terrible outcome, not just for Tkhouma, but for all Assyrians without distinction. Also, the Turkish government was presently building a field for airplanes in Julamerg. This puts Assyrians in a difficult position because the territory is empty of young fighters as all of them are in military service to you the British. Denton replied saying, “Do not worry about that because British airplanes among the armies are always ready to help you. With regards to the preparation of a field for Turkish airplanes it is a very good thing they are doing because it will be ours and we will use it in the end.” These words he repeated wherever he met Assyrians. With those words Assyrians gained much hope and courage, more so against the Turkish government. About four days after the return of Major Denton and Rab-Khaila Dawid to Mosul, Azzu of the village of Qoleh from the territory of Leon arrived at the village of Malouta by Malik Ismael. He was sent as messenger by Ismail Agha of the Artushis of Grawean saying, “Julamerg and the district of Leon is now full of Turkish government forces among Ashirets of Kurdistan for your destruction. Then the Malik to confirm this message sent his son Dinkha and Chikku Geewu among a group of young men to the mountain of Istanbul which falls opposite Julamerg. From there they saw the large forces of Turks and Ashirets same as the information of the messenger of Ismail Agha. They returned in a hurry and told the Malik everything they saw and he without delay sent this information to the British government in Amediya. At that same time Deacon Dinkha took all the young fighters of Upper Tyareh who were ready there and they held the mountain of Suwareh behind the grazeland of Bet Samano. Boko Bar Rayis Oshana of Asheeta, Sleewu d’Beh Paulus of the village, and Seipo Keena of Lagippa with fighters of Lower Tyareh held the mountain of Kelazar. The Turkish forces were on the way of Deriezar and camped in the plain of Maydan, which was used for shepherding the sheep of people of Asheeta. Early morning, they started fighting and the whole day the Turks did not cease from using cannons and machine guns and Assyrians hunkered down in those high rocks like mountain sheep. As self-sacrificers they struggled fighting only with the strength of rifles waiting for the British force as the pledge of Major Denton. But they never received help from airplanes nor from the army. The next day the Turkish forces blanketed those rocks held by Assyrians with cannon balls and machine gun bullets and the Turkish attacks poured in till the front of the barricades. Then the fighters of Lower Tyareh abandoned and descended by way of Asheeta to Lower Berwar and Amediya and Deacon Dinkha among the fighters of Upper Tyareh to Chamba. There he met with Memeh Porto as a messenger of Deacon Yonan of Darawa who was inquiring what to do next.
Dinkha said quickly call on them to abandon the village and without pausing drive day and night by way of Leezan valley because Asheeta is occupied by the enemy and if you delay any longer that route will also be blocked and you will be prisoners at that time. The district of Tkhouma was also abandoned and the enemy drove after them until they delivered them into Iraq and occupied till the village of Beido and Ayna D’Nooneh. Then the Assyrian volunteer fighters were gathered from wherever they were dispersed in the country of Iraq to the plateau of Amediya. There they were organized and divided into their tribes under their own commanders. Malik Yonan of Tkhouma, Malik Shamisdin of Lower Tyareh, from east of Ayna D’Nooneh to nearby the Zab. Khoshaba Yosip and Dinkha D’Malik Ismael from there till nearby Darshiresh, village of Rashid Beg. The official Assyrian troops held behind them. Early in the morning the battle started. That day the volunteers displayed a victory of great battles which we can unanimously say was incredible to the eyes of observers. Those attacks they mounted in that feverish fire of Turkish machine guns and cannons without worry of death. After breaking the enemy and taking the aforesaid villages, they ran to their own border. Then the British airplanes arrived from Mosul and dropped a few bombs in Asheeta village, and the battle calmed. At that time Captain Bedley and Rab-Khamshi Yakhanis D’Malik Khamo of Baz met one of the Turkish leaders in Aora village. What they discussed is not known but after the return of Bedley an order was given by Colonel Barke for the volunteers to quickly return and not cross the Turkish border. They immediately returned disappointed because the English refused to take their ancient ancestral land as they had pledged. As a part of the army was on the way for the destruction of Darshiresh in the plain of Hadna they ran into Rashid Beg with a group of people carrying a white flag and coming to surrender. He was delivered to Daniel D’Malik Ismael who was informed of tricks by some people who wanted to carry out an ambush and dishonor the Emir. Then he called out educating them with his advice saying, “You were very close to bringing shame to our people because in the laws of the Ashirets after surrendering there is mercy and forgiveness. More so, this is an Emir of a country of Muslims and Christians without distinction. Also, he is advanced in age and so we must give him every respect he deserves. From there he sent him under his own trustworthy guards until he reached Amediya city. TukultīApilEšarra (talk) 21:20, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Just to confirm that Olson was utterly confused...

From the greatest Kurdologist of all time himself:

Van Bruinessen. M. (1992). Agha, Shaikh and State: The Social and Political Structures of Kurdistan, Zed Books. (p. 283-4)

Ihsan Nuri's mutiny and desertion

"The names of the deserters who gave the British all this information are not mentioned in the documents, but there cannot be any doubt that they were Ihsan Nuri and his comrades, whose escape to Iraq is connected with the first of a series of mistakes and setbacks that ended in the failure of the revolt. A regiment of the Seventh army corps, in which a number of prominent Azadi members were officers (including Ihsan Nuri and a brother of Yusuf Ziya Beg, Riza), was, in August 1924, sent on a punitive expedition against the Nestorian Assyrians of Hakkari, who had shown themselves disobedient to the government. While they were at Baytushabab they received a cipher telegram from Yusuf Ziya (who, through Azadi contacts, could use the military telegraph). Yusuf Ziya had been in Istanbul to sound out Turkish opposition circles. His telegram contained a report of his findings. His brother Riza and the other Kurdish officers, however, misunderstood it for a sign that the general uprising had started. They mutinied and, taking many arms, went into the mountains, followed by four companies consisting almost entirely of Kurds. They tried, in vain, to persuade local Kurdish tribes to join in the revolt. When they realized that there was no general uprising, and that their position was very precarious, they destroyed the heavy arms and fled to Iraq. Here they were hospitably entertained."

Footnote: This story is well-known in Kurdish nationalist circles. The accounts in Dersimi (1952):173-4 and Silopi (1969):82-3 are virtually identical with the oral information I received from Mamduh Salim and Mulla Hasan.

Lan savaşı mahvettiniz amk değiştirmeyin

. Dirokakurdiya (talk) 07:45, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Kurdish Vandalism

The page at this current time is being vandalized by kurdish teens from tiktok inorder to change history and hide their embarrassment from this huge loss. If it says Turkish-Kurdish victory it is false, no sources back it up. It was an Assyrian victory. 2607:FEA8:EA4:8A00:CAC:147D:4233:8AB8 (talk) 20:13, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

No not really assyrian victory it was more like Assyrians killing Muslims and returning to Iraq after they realized they can't kill an army of 50.000 men. With less than 1000-800 Assyrians 185.106.28.141 (talk) 05:27, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 11 May 2023

Remove {{in use}}, the article is clearly not undergoing a major edit. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 17:20, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:24, 11 May 2023 (UTC)