Talk:Ashkan Dejagah

Tattoo

Trivia: he is the first iranian whos invited to National iranian team with visible tattoo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 223.27.129.165 (talk) 11:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Fulham fan thread

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?108329-Ashkan-Dejagah-Fulham-FC-2013-14 --RidiQLus (talk) 09:44, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Forums/blogs are not a form of sourcing. Murry1975 (talk) 09:46, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) See WP:UGC, internet forums are not considered reliable sources. GiantSnowman 09:47, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Charity

Dejagah's charity event with the Shooting Star Children's Hospice:

http://www.persianfootball.com/forums/showthread.php?108329-Ashkan-Dejagah-Fulham-FC-2013-14&p=2112460&viewfull=1#post2112460 --RidiQLus (talk) 11:32, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Read the info above? Not a reliable source QED237 (talk) 11:51, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Nickname

Should Dejagah's nickname, Ash, be noted somewhere in the main article? Kind of like Cristiano Ronaldo's known as section in the intro. --RidiQLus (talk) 12:23, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

I cant find a nickname on Ronaldo's page. Do you mean his short common name as opposed to his full Portogeuse style name? Its not the same. Also anything added including nickname needs a reference for being such and should be done in a way that doesnt apply to much wieght to something so minor. Murry1975 (talk) 12:41, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

The forum link above provides information on his nickname--RidiQLus (talk) 21:46, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

An Internet forum is NOT a reliable source. JMHamo (talk) 21:48, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Deletions of citizenship from lede, contra our guideline

Our guideline on ledes in bios, WP:OPENPARA, states: "The opening paragraph should have: ... In most modern-day cases ... the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident..." (emphasis added)

Editors keep on deleting the citizenship of a person from a blp lede here. Also here and here.

The deleters claim that the guideline WP:OPENPARA, which calls for reflecting citizenship -- is trumped by the soccer wikiproject (the subject plays soccer), which they say calls for not reflecting citizenship here. (The deleters also have some other claims, such as that reflecting that he is a dual German citizen in the lede is anti-Iranian; he only wanted to continue to reflect that the person was Iranian).

Another editor supported inclusion of citizenship in the lede, but he was also deleted. The citizenship statement is also backed by a very high level RS.

Guidelines control such matters. Not individual wikiprojects. And, citizenship is especially notable for a lede for athletes -- as it drives what countries the person can play for. And other sports include citizenship in ledes (as does the rest of the Project, following the guideline).--Epeefleche (talk) 22:24, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think it should just be Iranian. Not German-Iranian or Iranian with German citizenship or whatever. Also, I was referring to the wording of your overall 'International career - Germany' section sounding anti-Iranian.--RidiQLus (talk) 23:33, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

—sroc 💬 01:04, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Agree with Sroc, who is quite right. As most of the discussion is at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies#Deletions of citizenship from lede, let's continue it there.--Epeefleche (talk) 01:18, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Sounds good--RidiQLus (talk) 01:30, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Deletions of wp:lede additions

Two editors have tag-teamed to delete additions that I made pursuant to wp:lede. I provided explanatory edit summaries, including pointing to wp:lede as the basis. The 2 editors provided no proper explanation whatsoever in their edit summaries for their deletions, which contravene wp:lede.

The first deletion, by editor RidiQLus, does not even indicate he is making a deletion (he only writes "Formating of intro - countries should be noted first; club achievements added"), and can be found here. I restored the deleted content, writing "ce, add per wp:lede, restoring unexplained deletions".

RidiQLus later, in user talkpage discussion, indicated his rationale as "His intro shouldn't have the negative aspects of his career, only the positives.". This, despite my having pointed out that wp:lede provides that "the lead should summarize the most important points in the article — including any prominent controversies".

The second deletion is by JMHamo, who deleted in full without explaining a basis for his deletion. He wrote only: "No edit warring.. please discuss". And he did not discuss at all -- either in his edit summary or elsewhere.

As made clear by wp:lede, which I've already pointed to in my edit summary, the lead should summarize the most important points in the article —including any prominent controversies. The deletions prevent the article from doing so.

The lede is being expanded, per wp:lede, prompted by a suggestion by user:W. P. Uzer at the discussion concerning this article at the guideline talk page here.

As can be seen by the article history, the two editors RidiQLus and JMHamo also tag-teamed deletions just yesterday, in the matter under discussion at the above-indicated guideline talkpage.Epeefleche (talk) 18:34, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I'll copy/paste what I wrote on Epeefleche's talk page:

You seem to have an agenda with the Dejagah issue that you keep bringing up. His intro shouldn't have the negative aspects of his career, only the positives. Please refrain from enforcing your ideologies onto his encyclopedia page. Yes, the Iranian regime is corrupt and oppressive, we get it; it's been noted in the 'International career - Germany' section. Also, your writing seems off, with choppy sentences and some grammatical errors here & there. On another note, thanks for clarifying his international section, as well as adding other sections.--RidiQLus (talk) 18:37, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

::SEVEN in two days. If I wasnt just popping on and off this weekend you would be at the 3RRNB. Murry1975 (talk) 18:38, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

I see here people who obviously have an agenda ("intro shouldn't have the negative aspects of his career" - ahem, Wikipedia is supposed to present all sides of an issue) accusing others of having an agenda; and people who are obviously edit warring accusing other people of edit warring. Good luck Epeefleche, but my experience of Wikipedia is that you won't get anywhere - when a few people gang up like this to enforce their way, then their way is what they will end up getting, no matter how reasonable your arguments and how unreasonable theirs. W. P. Uzer (talk) 18:49, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

See also: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view:

Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view. NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it.

—sroc 💬 22:54, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:OPENPARAGRAPH, which is part of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biographies guideline, states:

The opening paragraph should have: Name(s) and title(s), if any (see, for instance, also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (royalty and nobility)); Dates of birth and death, if known (but for dates of birth see WP:BLPPRIVACY, which takes precedence); for how to write these dates, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers#Dates of birth and death; Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity); In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. The notable positions the person held, activities they took part in or roles they played; Why the person is notable. For example: Cleopatra VII Philopator (December 70 BCE/January 69 BCE – c. August 12, 30 BCE) was a queen of ancient Egypt. She was the last member of the Macedonian Ptolemaic dynasty to rule Egypt ... Francesco Petrarca or Petrarch (1304–1374) was an Italian scholar, poet, and humanist, who is credited with having given the Renaissance its name and inventing the concept of the Dark Ages ... Cesar Estrada Chavez (March 31, 1927 – April 23, 1993) was an American farm worker, labor leader, and civil rights activist who, with Dolores Huerta, co-founded the National Farm Workers Association, which later became the United Farm Workers (UFW) ... François Maurice Adrien Marie Mitterrand (26 October 1916 – 8 January 1996) was the 21st President of the French Republic ...

As further discussed at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biographies#Deletions of citizenship from lede, it is usual to have nationality stated in the opening line (e.g., "[Name] is a [nationality] [occupation]...") and it is unclear why footballers should be an exception, particularly as nationality may be relevant to eligibility for playing in national sides. Indeed, nationality is usually included in articles on notable football players—for example, to take the first five names that leap to mind:

• "Raúl González Blanco (Spanish pronunciation: [raˈul ɣonˈθaleθ ˈβlaŋko]) (born 27 June 1977), commonly known as Raúl, is a Spanish footballer who plays for the Qatar Stars League club Al Sadd as a striker. Raúl was born in the San Cristóbal de los Ángeles neighborhood of Madrid where he played for the local youth team..."
• "David Robert Joseph Beckham OBE, /ˈbɛkəm/ is an English former footballer."
• "Thierry Daniel Henry (French pronunciation: [tjɛʁi ɑ̃ʁi]; born 17 August 1977) is a French footballer who plays as a striker for New York Red Bulls in Major League Soccer. Henry was born in Les Ulis, Essonne (a suburb of Paris)..."
• "John Aloisi (born 5 February 1976) is a retired Australian football (soccer) player and the former manager of A-League club Melbourne Heart."
• "Shane Edward Smeltz (born 29 September 1981) is a New Zealand footballer who plays as a striker for Perth Glory FC in the A-League."

Some of the reversions on the Ashkan Dejagah article have referred vaguely to "footy guides" or "as per WP:FOOTY we dont use nationality in the lead if it is dual, or if he plays for a country outside his birth, it stops edit wars".

1. WP:FOOTY redirects to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football, which itself does not state any "guidelines".
2. WP:FOOTY has a "Manual of style" section which includes a link to "Player manual of style" (Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players), however:
   • This is not a guideline either, but rather "a proposal for the general style and contents of an article on a football player."
   • It also states: "This page provides a suggested layout for footballer biographies. While nothing is set in stone, this layout is used in most of the best biographies as judged by the community, and following it is a good idea."
   • Nationality was deleted in 2010 without explanation in the edit summary.
   • The only discussion on the corresponding talk page is at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Players/Archive 1#Rewriting the sample first sentence about how to express dual nationality in the opening line, from 2009, before the above edit.
3. There is also discussion recorded at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Football/Nationality, however, this is mainly concerning the use of flags, not about mentioning nationality in the lede.

In any case, none of the above three points are policies or guidelines, which are developed from widespread community consensus. As a general rule, guidelines trump the view of individual WikiProjects, certainly the views of individual editors. Accordingly, WP:OPENPARAGRAPH should be applied to include the nationality in the lede, at least as part of a simple description, provided that this can be supported by reliable sources. —sroc 💬 22:51, 16 March 2014 (UTC)

Your examples above don't reflect Dejagah's situation. Those players you mentioned haven't played for a certain youth national team before switching to another senior national team. I think it's best to come to a compromise and just leave it as "footballer" as opposed to "Iranian" or "German-Iranian" or whatnot. The information is provided in the sentences right after. Also, I'm all in for having unbiased information in an encyclopedia (whether it's positive or negative), but the whole Germany debacle is unnecessary in the intro, in my opinion, when it's already stated in the following sections.--RidiQLus (talk) 01:53, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, Dejagah may be an exceptional case because his nationality is, to some extent, discussed in the subsequent sentences; it is still unclear what his current nationality is (i.e., "Iranian" or "German–Iranian" or "Iranian–German"), although I note that his self-identification is clarified later ("Everyone knows I'm a German-Iranian").

This still does not justify the argument that there is a blanket "footy guide" to omit nationality from the lead, overruling WP:OPENPARAGRAPH (which is a guideline). —sroc 💬 06:12, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with sroc. And further to his point, the very purpose of the lede, as stated in wp:lede, is to "summarize" what is in the text. The fact that the lede summarizes what is later in the text is therefore certainly not a reason to delete it -- quite the opposite, it demonstrates why it is appropriate.--Epeefleche (talk) 18:58, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 17 March 2014 (commas after multi-level geographical references)

• "Dejagah was born in Tehran, Iran, and moved to Berlin, Germany at the age of one."

→ "Dejagah was born in Tehran, Iran, and moved to Berlin, Germany, at the age of one."

• "Dejagah resides in London, England with his wife and daughter."

→ "Dejagah resides in London, England, with his wife and daughter."

Insert a comma after "Germany" and "England", per MOS:COMMA:

In geographical references that include multiple levels of subordinate divisions (e.g., city, state/province, country), a comma separates each element and follows the last element (unless followed by other punctuation).

—sroc 💬 06:06, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Done — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 10:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Is he muslim???

Is Ashkan Dejagah a muslim. Joey Whittacker (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:27, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

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