Talk:Alf Ramsey/Archive 1

Archive 1

Expert

This article needs serious attention. I do not mean to take anything away from the people who have already edited it and have done a great job but we need much more. No headings or pics of the man who guided England to the worlds greatest sporting triumph? Shurely shome mishtake???--Edchilvers 14:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I've now removed the tag. Amazing how long it last (in various incarnations) --Dweller (talk) 14:43, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

 Done --Dweller (talk) 09:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Later Life and Death section....personal opinion???

After reading through this section, it looks as though there is a lot of personal opinion in it. Saying that Rattin was wrongly sent off for Argentina in the 1966 world cup, that Ramsey's departure has 'wrongly' been attributed to their downfall. I also cannot see any references or the like present. I would edit it myself but would much rather leave it to someone more experienced in this. (82.10.87.105 (talk) 18:20, 4 October 2010 (UTC))

 Done --Dweller (talk) 09:36, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Requested POV Check

Although I'm not as hawk-eyed as I'd like to be, I do have this page on my watchlist for vandalism given his importance in the history of the football team I support. Having been on here a bit more often lately, I've seen what appears to be a slow edit war regarding a Polish goalkeeper (example: [1]) and there was a major trim by an anon user earlier in the month trying to remove content seemingly considered POV [2]. As I'm not sure how much may have snuck under the radar, and given the seeming dispute over certain issues, I'm requesting a POV check of this article and also tagging to request additional references in the hope of improving the general quality. There are entire sections of the article lacking references, which can read as POV-pushing to a non-expert in certain details. Given that Ramsey left Ipswich over 20 years before I was born, I know little of his playing career to know if he really was a "slow" defender for example! - JVG (talk) 01:38, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

 Done --Dweller (talk) 09:36, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Typo?

"Ipswich, the town he loved and where he was an active member of the local gold club" - is this a typo for golf club? If not, what is a "gold club".....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:32, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Looks like that's been fixed. Knowing Ipswich well, there's probably not too many gold clubs, perhaps a few golf clubs on the outskirts... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

 Done --Dweller (talk) 09:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Freemason link

I'm not sure this is entirely relevant to his life, and it's a challenge because the only reference is offline. Perhaps worth a quick chat about whether it belongs here? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:46, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Worth a sentence perhaps within another section, perhaps with some of the rest in a footnote. A whole section as we have now is in my opinion WP:UNDUE and WP:TOOMUCH. —  Cliftonian (talk)  03:23, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Operation Alf Ramsey

Make the pledge, @The Rambling Man, Cliftonian, and Dweller: are gearing up for a push to make sure this hero of English football is recognised by Wikipedia by getting his article to FA status. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:32, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

Medals footnote

I think this footnote is really interesting and should be part of the copy. Not quite sure where - perhaps legacy section? --Dweller (talk) 08:51, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Legacy section would probably be best if not a footnote. —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:33, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

WP:TFA target date

July 2016 will see the 50th anniversary of Ramsey's team winning the World Cup. Appropriate? --Dweller (talk) 21:35, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

30 July 2016 is an ideal target. —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:34, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Not hagiography

We'll need to be careful not to produce a one-eyed version of England's heroic manager. I've started introducing some material that begins to balance things. I noticed in the article history this edit, which removed a lot of uncited negative material. I think it might be worth looking through it and seeing what rings true and can be verified. The Haynes and Argentina comments are particularly interesting, even if the hysterically negative style is not. --Dweller (talk) 21:32, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more. —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:38, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Wingless wonders

I think the reader would be aided by a pair of diagrams showing a pre-Ramsey traditional set-up and the Wingless Wonders. --Dweller (talk) 14:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Autobiography

As his ghosted autobiography was written in 1952, while he was still a player, I'm not sure how relevant it is. It definitely doesn't belong in the "After football" section. 77.202.224.9 (talk) 14:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. —  Cliftonian (talk)  14:55, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes. It's been inexpertly bunged there for the moment. Feel free to move it. --Dweller (talk) 16:36, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

"He remains widely regarded as one of British football's all-time great managers."

This is in the Lead. I know from the Bradman article, where the claims about him are really really strong, that it's amazingly difficult to reference such a thing. We must make sure that this claim is strongly backed up in the Legacy section. --Dweller (talk) 21:57, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Merge sections?

I'm looking at "Life after football and death" and thinking (a) it's odd to mention his wife before we mention he married his wife and (b) most of this would fit fine in the subsequent "Personal life" section. Any thoughts? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:04, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Hm. That was me. Beforehand though, the article felt like he finished managing and then died. Which isn't so. His wife can and should be mentioned in the chronology, when he married her (while at Spurs, from memory?), and expanded on in the personal section. --Dweller (talk) 21:58, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Hall of Fame claim

It's in the lead twice. I think best to have it at the end of the lead. Views? --Dweller (talk) 21:56, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

We don't mention the same thing twice, though. We say first that he is the only person in it as both manager and player, then later that he was an inaugural member as a manager in 2002, and was inducted as a player in 2010. I would keep the mention in the first paragraph because it illustrates he is a big deal in English football history without resorting the vague claims like "he is widely regarded as such and such", which as you have pointed out elsewhere are notoriously hard to reference. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:40, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Third Division (South) / Third Division South

Which are we going to use in this article? Either is fine, but we need to be consistent. I have a weak preference for Third Division (South), but I will happily go with the majority view. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:42, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed and I don't care which. What's our article called? Might plump for that. --Dweller (talk) 08:53, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Our article does not have brackets, so perhaps we'll go with that. —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:44, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Army?

The somewhat oblique reference to his National Service is too brief and offhand. It needs developing, especially as it has football ramifications. --Dweller (talk) 08:52, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. (Since Ramsey was never even a commissioned officer, I'm sure his old Army comrades found it quite amusing when he became called "The General"...) Do the books you've got explore his time in uniform in great detail, Rambling Man? —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:40, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

I'll take a look tonight... The Rambling Man (talk) 11:54, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Position changes

Inside-left to centre-half to right-back... Why? --Dweller (talk) 09:35, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Also a centre forward [3].--Egghead06 (talk) 16:09, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

League, not league

Where discussing the Football League in the prose please be sure to call it "the League" (capital L) rather than "the league", as we mean the Football League specifically rather than any football league. A boost on the sourcing front: rummaging around my mum's house today I found my copy of Sir Geoff Hurst's autobiography from when I was a boy. Quite a few mentions of Ramsey therein. —  Cliftonian (talk)  20:26, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good, the book at least. I would leave the tweaking and consistency stuff to the end, it's already apparent that we're generating a monster article, so there's little point in polishing it (unless you have OCD like me) until we're ready to nominate at FAC. In any case, we're bound to miss one of these, so let's crack on with the expansion, and then drive on the formatting and consistency... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Debut for Southampton

I've just seen it added that he made his debut against Plymouth, but according to Dave Bowler's biography, Winning Isn't Everything, his first senior match was against Luton at Kenilworth Road. link. What's the deal here? —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:00, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

If he was 22 (or 24) that would have been a war-time game. As you know, the infobox stats are league games only and www.11v11.com only cover league games. Depends on what importance you place on war time games?--Egghead06 (talk) 16:11, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps mention both: his senior debut (in a War League match) and his full League debut in the first post-war season, 1946–47. (The "regular" FA Cup came back for 1945–46, but the regular League came back only in 1946–47. Did Ramsey play in the 1945–46 FA Cup? Worth keeping in mind) —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:32, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

When I am back in the UK (end of September) I will dig out all my Southampton FC books and let you know what they say about Ramsey. Quite a lot, I'm sure. 77.202.224.9 (talk) 05:30, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Cheers 77.202.224.9. —  Cliftonian (talk)  05:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I have started adding material on his Southampton career. I have used the sfn referencing system with which I am more familiar. Feel free to convert this to the Harv system. 78.147.106.118 (talk) 10:51, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

The Southampton reference books state that Ramsey was transferred to Spurs for £21,000 made up of Ernie Jones plus £6,000, whereas the present article says the fee was £21,000 plus Jones. I can't read your references, so can't check this. 78.147.106.118 (talk) 10:58, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your excellent contributions - why not register an account? They're free, take about a minute and make it easier to communicate. Can you give us the precise wording from your source about the fee? --Dweller (talk) 11:06, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

"In That Number" (p.569) says Ramsey's "failure to regain the No. 2 shirt ... resulted in a £21,000 transfer to Tottenham Hotspur" (no mention of Jones). "All the Saints" (in Jones's bio on p. 362) says "the deal ... brought Ernie Jones, plus £6,000, from Spurs to Southampton, in exchange for Alf Ramsey". The Ramsey bio in "All the Saints" explains in detail the reason for his transfer (which I will add into the article later), but is strangely silent about the fee. Another book ("England: Player by Player" by Graham Betts) says that Ramsey "was signed by Spurs for a then-record fee for a full-back of £21,000". England Football Online says that "he joined Tottenham Hotspur FC in May 1949 for £21,000". These all point to the same conclusion: the fee was £21,000 made up of Ernie Jones plus £6,000. Cheers 78.147.106.118 (talk) 15:32, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

The Rambling Man are you able to shed light from the existing refs? --Dweller (talk) 15:45, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Well Bowler says that it was record fee, £21k, but goes on to say that Ernie Jones "moved in the opposite direction as a makeweight". So not closer to solving the discrepancy I'm afraid. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:05, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I've tweaked the wording to agree to my sources. The newspaper articles are still used as citations but I don't have the subscription required to read them. Can someone confirm exactly what they say? 78.147.106.118 (talk) 19:53, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

The Gloucester Citizen one, currently ref #20, is a brief contemporary report which says "On Saturday, Tottenham Hotspur and Southampton agreed an exchange deal whereby Alf. Ramsey went to strengthen the 'Spurs defence, and left-winger Ernie Jones became a Southampton player." No mention of fee.

Ref #21, the Yorkshire Post, is a generic pen-picture-type piece from two years later, the bit relevant to the transfer says "He had been injured and while he was away Ellerington, who took his place, did so well that he could not be displaced. With such an embarrassment of defensive riches, Southampton could well afford to part with him —which they did at the close of that season to Tottenham Hotspur in exchange for a £21,000 cheque." cheers, Struway2 (talk) 20:42, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Right. We're here to report on RS, not try to reconcile them. I think there's enough confusion here for us to note that there was a £21K deal, which included a player, with a footnote explaining that the sources appear to differ on whether Jones's value is or is not included in that figure. --Dweller (talk) 08:26, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Style sections?

We have bits and pieces of information about his playing style scattered throughout. We ought to bring them together. But what about a managerial style section, too? --Dweller (talk) 12:14, 7 September 2015 (UTC)

I've implemented both of these. To be expanded. --Dweller (talk) 08:31, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Archived old addressed threads

Archived some old and/or addressed threads. Metric used was older than one year, or marked with "done". Also set up archival to archive threads with no new activity for over three (3) months.

This should help focus the efforts more on the ongoing Quality improvement project -- in the drive to bring the page to WP:FA.

Good luck !

— Cirt (talk) 08:56, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Citation issues

A few minor citation issues:

At cite number 7 at present:

Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; name "Hutchinson2011" defined multiple times with different content (see the ). Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; name "Hutchinson2011" defined multiple times with different content (see the ).

I'm not sure which "Hutchinson" is which ref that is being referred to, otherwise I'd try to fix it myself. :)

Good luck,

— Cirt (talk) 09:12, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for this Cirt; I've fixed it. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:55, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

You're most welcome, — Cirt (talk) 17:44, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Life after football and death

Interesting heading for a section.... perhaps some rewording required, unless we have information about his afterlife. 'Retirement and death'? FunkyCanute (talk) 16:40, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Good suggestion, FunkyCanute; fixed. —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:48, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Progress towards FAC

In just under 2 months, we've nearly trebled the size of the article, which is pretty good going.

In terms of the meatier things that need doing, I know TRM is waiting to get stuck into the Ipswich years when he has time. There are also quite a lot of issues on this page that need careful addressing - or not :-). Quite a few editors are now well equipped with [actual printed] books [gasp!], to help us tackle some of the questions.

For me, one of the most crucial issues we need to think over is the hagiography point I raised above. There's a critical note in the legacy section from one observer, but just about everything else smells of roses currently. His failure at Birmingham needs exploring, and there's practically nothing in there about Olympiakos. There is some criticism in the sections dealing with his later England years, but I do recall that Ramsey has been criticised over his tactical nous when his once revolutionary ideas were superseded. We don't need to overdo the criticism, but if relevant and fair, we ought to include it, even if we balance with opposing viewpoints - and in football there's usually an opposing viewpoint!

Cheers --Dweller (talk) 21:49, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Did he advise Graham Taylor as Eng manager?

([4]) "He had a brief spell as a consultant to Birmingham City in 1977 but his involvement in football since then was an advisory role during Graham Taylor's spell as England manager." I'm worried about trusting it, because the first half of the sentence includes a significant error (he was manager of Birmingham). --Dweller (talk) 16:06, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Just to say that "consultant" is technically correct. Ramsey had been on the board of the club since January 1976, and when Willie Bell as sacked in September 1977, he agreed to act as caretaker till a new man was appointed. But a couple of months later, when the board had already offered the job to Mike Smith, Ramsey decided he did fancy it after all, so long as the job title was "consultant" and not "manager", and he resigned his directorship to take up this paid role with responsibility for all team affairs including transfers. The Daily Express back sports page headline was "The consultant" (with a cartoon of a bunch of players reading the team sheet on the noticeboard and one of them wondering "Which of us patients has our consultant selected for Saturday?"). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:39, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

I just love collaborative editing. Amazing. --Dweller (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Anyone got info on the England role? --Dweller (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Just to add my two pennies, highly doubt he advised Taylor, as it would've been publicised/scrutinised by the media at the time. And maybe twisted like Call-me-Dave's special relationship with Tony. Ramsey criticised an England performance in October 1991, David Lacey wrote in the article ""Ramsey also implied that Taylor had used the wrong tactics for the players available." And a year later he spoke exclusively to the Mirror to lambaste Taylor's decision to get rid of Lineker. I don't doubt that Ramsey spoke to Taylor to wish him well for the qualifiers, maybe on the phone or at an evening dinner. But if Sir Bobby Robson said: "I wanted to talk about Holland and Dennis Bergkamp, but I couldn't pressure him. I had to bite my tongue waiting for him to ask me. He didn't," it makes you question the whole advisory role with Ramsey. Bonne chance on your FA quest! Lemonade51 (talk) 12:39, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

His history of being publicly unsupportive towards his successors goes back further. On the ITV programme On the Ball in Feb 1977, after England were embarrassed by the Netherlands, he described the team as "completely disorganised" and when asked if he had any sympathy for Don Revie, he said "Having accepted the position of England team manager he has to accept the responsibility in exactly the same way as I did". Mind you, I suspect he wasn't alone in having little sympathy for Revie... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 13:08, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Sources update

Just so everyone knows, I have the following books on the way:

• Talking Football, Ramsey's 1952 autobiography
• Anatomy of a Football Manager: Sir Alf Ramsey by Max Marquis (1970)
• Winning Isn't Everything: A Biography of Sir Alf Ramsey by Dave Bowler (1999)
• '66: The Inside Story of England's 1966 World Cup Triumph by Roger Hutchinson (2002) [1995]
• Sir Alf: A Major Reappraisal of the Life and Times of England's Greatest Football Manager by Leo McKinstry (2006)

I already have Geoff Hurst's autobiography 1966 and All That, and Matt Dickinson's biography of Bobby Moore. I hope to be able to get my teeth into this a bit more soon. Cheers and I hope everyone's well. A great weekend to all. —  Cliftonian (talk)  17:01, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

I now have all these books in my possession. —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:59, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

First game Ramsey watched

I spotted this piece of detective work. Please can whoever has the book double check year, teams, ground and competition? If it all stacks up as currently, the text will need to say that Ramsey's recollection was that ... and the footnote will need to give the facts that seem to contradict it. --Dweller (talk) 08:30, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

It could have been a friendly match. If this footnote is retained it should clarify that there was no competitive West Ham–Arsenal match at Upton Park during this period. —  Cliftonian (talk)  09:19, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I like that and think we should do it. --Dweller (talk) 09:45, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

My 1952 first edition of Talking Football arrived today and I have reviewed the relevant passage on page 14. It is placed earlier, while Ramsey is discussing being at school, and he identifies it specifically as a League match:

Football now became a regular topic of conversation in our household and one tea-time my elder brother, Albert, leaned across the table and said to me: "I'm going to see West Ham play Arsenal tomorrow afternoon. Would you like to come?"

"I cocked an eye towards my mother, who smiled and said, "Well, Albert, providing you take care of Alf in that crush...."

And that was how I came to see my first League match. And my memory of it? A chunky little fellow in long shorts who intrigued me until he had to leave the field with an injury. Yes, you've guessed it—the one and only Alex James.

The time had now come for me to leave school ...

I shall alter the article accordingly. Cheers, —  Cliftonian (talk)  18:24, 30 October 2015 (UTC)

I think James played his last game for Arsenal in 1937. --Dweller (talk) 09:54, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

War service

I have a few issues with this sentence:

He joined the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry, where he played football successfully, and rose to be a company quartermaster sergeant.

1. I play football "successfully" with my kids. And they do, too. Not clear what's meant by this. Is it that he managed to get the regiment to give him time to play (against whom?) or is it that he was successful in some tournament or other, or what?
2. The sentence could be read as if his football success led to promotion. That may or may not be true. Either way, can it be clarified?
3. Finally, shouldn't the whole of his war service go into his "Early life" section?

Cheers --Dweller (talk) 10:08, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I had been intending to get to this over the next few days. I don't have the books to hand this minute but I read through some relevant pages a couple of days ago. A brief summary: He was conscripted in June 1940 and did basic training at Truro. He spent his first night in a hotel commandeered by the army to be a barracks—the first night he'd ever spent in a hotel—and he proudly wrote home saying he was being put up in a "luxury" hotel. The military training helped to bulk him up and he became eventually captain of his unit's team. He names several professionals who were in the team. Talking Football is rather vague about the military aspects and doesn't explain when or how he got promotion. Doesn't even say he was in the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry.

Ramsey's army team lost to Southampton, then beat Southampton reserves. A colonel in his regiment (forget his name) then called Ramsey into his office soon after and said Southampton were a man short for a game up at Luton, and would Ramsey be interested in filling in. The normally unemotional Ramsey allowed himself a joyful jig as he left the colonel's office, signed for Southampton as an amateur on the train and played his first game at Kenilworth Road. They beat Luton 3–2 IIRC. He says in Talking Football that the programme from that game at Luton, with his name written in, was "most precious" to him. He continued to play for Southampton as his military commitments allowed, and turned pro in 1944. He was posted to Palestine from December 1945 to June 1946, and he captained a football team representing the British garrison there. He returned to Britain in June 1946 and was demobbed.

On your last point, I had thought along similar lines, but the thing that complicates matters is that his playing career started during the war and while he was in the army. He turned professional, too, while still in the army during the war. Perhaps a good way to do it would be to start the section still in "Early life", then cut to "Playing career" when he first gets the call to play for Southampton up at Luton? Certainly this seems to be when he considers his playing career to have begun in the autobiographical account. —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:36, 3 November 2015 (UTC)

I've added a section on his war service, splitting into "Playing career" when he signs as a professional in 1944. —  Cliftonian (talk)  17:18, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I've moved the split down to 1946, where he leaves the army and the regular peacetime Football League returns. Works slightly better I think. —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:47, 8 November 2015 (UTC)

Years in photo captions

I'm going to make them consistent. If anyone doesn't like the format I've followed, let's agree one here. I'm not too fussed which one it is, I just think inconsistency is not FA quality. --Dweller (talk) 10:00, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

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Looks good to me. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:33, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

Footnote2

This is a massive footnote, with an ill-advised name (even if a quote from Ramsey). I'm not sure why a footnote is needed at all, but assuming there's a good reason to have one, the vast majority of the material should, in my opinion, be included in the text or deleted. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 14:32, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

I've cut it down considerably and changed the offending name, which rather sadly was indeed a quote from Ramsey. I thought including all this in the main prose would clog it up rather, hence the footnote—hope it's better now. Cheers —  Cliftonian (talk)  16:34, 1 June 2016 (UTC)

You've done a good job, as ever, thanks. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 07:19, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Cheers, thanks, you're very kind. :) —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:07, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Signing on fee story

There's an odd and rather extensive footnote about a signing on fee:

Because Ramsey was still awaiting formal demobilisation from the armed forces when he signed the contract, he was ineligible for the usual £10 signing-on fee for professional players. He later asserted that this "did not matter", but according to Mary Bates, who worked as an assistant secretary at Southampton at the time, Ramsey in fact almost lost his temper when she told him

Three things. First, this should either be in the text or excluded (in my opinion). Secondly, I cannot understand what "almost" losing temper means. You either control your temper or lose it. Is it a polite way of saying the latter? Thirdly, given it's such a weak anecdote is it encyclopedic in the first place? --Dweller (talk) 10:27, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I thought it was worth mentioning because Alf was usually so reserved and calm, but it seems got rather upset over this, though he did not totally lose his temper. I've no major objection to taking it out—just thought it might add a bit of colour. —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:32, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't respond (don't think I noticed!). I see it's gone. It's a shame, because it is a good story, and speaks of the man, but the problem with it was that awkward "almost". Unless there's a better version in another source (one not depending on that one!), probably best to leave it out. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:41, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

I'll try to find the time to have another look over the weekend. —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:11, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

England playing career

I think the editorial decision to have this separate from club is a good one, to avoid fractured stories. However, it leaves the first mention of it, "By the middle of the 1948–49 season Ramsey had made his first appearance for the England national team", which is in the Southampton section, a little hanging in the wind. A first-time reader, reaching there, won't know that the information is below. Would a footnote along the lines of "For more information, see below", maybe with an anchored link, be useful? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 07:25, 2 June 2016 (UTC)

Not a bad idea. A footnote often looks untidy when done without punctuation before it, so perhaps it may be expedient to rearrange the sentence to "By the middle of the 1948–49 season Ramsey had played a total of 90 League and six FA Cup appearances for Southampton, scoring eight goals, and made his first appearance for the England national team.", putting a footnote with an anchored link on at the end there? Might work quite well. Good idea Dweller. —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:27, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Yup. I'd possibly turn it around, first because the international is more important, and secondly to avoid the confusion of the appearance/goals stats that relate only to club level. Either way, let's do it. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:39, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Righto—I'll have a go later on, unless you'd like to? —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:11, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Leaving Soton

"by the time of the transfer deadline on 16 March only Sheffield Wednesday had made a concrete bid" - do we know why this wasn't acceptable to either Soton or Ramsey or both? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 09:27, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Ramsey didn't want to go, saying as a southerner he "might never settle down in the provinces". —  Cliftonian (talk)  10:06, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

Oh, I love that. Says a lot about him! Can it be included? --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:28, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

I'll have a look at the book later when I'm home (got that quote from the online preview), and we'll work it in. —  Cliftonian (talk)  11:11, 3 June 2016 (UTC)

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Alf Ramsey/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ritchie333 (talk · contribs) 20:55, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

As promised, I will review. I'm going to read through the whole article again from top to bottom, then make comments tomorrow, as it's nearly 60K in size.

https://news.yahoo.com/poland-comes-third-1974-beating-brazil-232710757.html is coming back as a dead link (404) Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 20:55, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Fixed. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:16, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Early life

• This source confirms Parrish Cottages has been demolished. I wonder, though, if there is a Geograph image of those houses, and if so, that would be a more appropriate picture than Dagenham village church? (You'd have thought Dagenham LBC would have put a plaque or something up somewhere to promote themselves a bit?) Indeed, looking at the caption, one may think "Ramsey's birthplace and childhood home" was the church, or next door, but looking on a map it suggests it was some distance from the village centre.

  Couldn't find anything. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:32, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

  I couldn't either. The house is here, but Geograph has no images. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about going on a "sightseeing" tour of Becontree to get a photo - maybe that can be a job for someone else. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Becontree Heath School" could do with a link, even if it's been completely obliterated since the 1920s it might be a suitable redlink for somebody to create an article at a later date. Just a thought.

  Well neither Becontree nor Becontree Heath link to a school, so I imagine this article would be odd to do so. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:32, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

  I found a blog that said the school was demolished in 1966, but as you might expect a search for "becontree school 1966" comes back with hits about Alf Ramsey. If I can't find anything concrete, I'll leave this for now, I'm just concerned somebody might pull it up in FAC, perhaps. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 10:28, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Alf's selection for the school occasioned the purchase of his first pair of football boots." - this sounds a bit too whimsical, why not just "Alf's selection for the team allowed him to buy his first football boots"?

  Cliftonian, Dweller, not in reach of the paper copy right now, can we rephrase this a touch? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:42, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

  I'm a bit in and out at the moment, (you might have noticed) but I should be able to handle this before my next absence without leave. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:18, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

   Done. Chose a slightly different route, to reflect what I saw as the nuance in the text. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:20, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Second World War

• Was it a conscious decision not to link "Second World War" in the opening sentence?

  Well it's not linked in the lead, and it's one of those things which you have to think, would someone really interested in Alf Ramsey really click on? I doubt it. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:55, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "That notwithstanding, the training was physically demanding" - can you think of something better than "That notwithstanding"? The only thing that comes to mind is "however", but that's used far too much in articles, in my view

  Reworded. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:56, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "The match at Luton's Kenilworth Road ground was in the Football League South, an irregular wartime division of the Football League" - this information doesn't seem to be in the source given : http://www.rsssf.com/tablese/engall.html

  Yes, that's odd, and I'm not sure if it's even that useful, so I've rephrased. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Playing career

• "Their reactions to moves were so speedy they had completed a pass, for instance, when I was still thinking things over" - is this missing a comma?

  I don't think so. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:57, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Southampton beat Corinthians" - I don't know much about Brazilian football, but is this the correct form of link to use here?

  Yes, if it's good enough for The Daily Telegraph and The BBC and even The New York Times, it's good enough for Wikipedia. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:00, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "in an away match against Grimsby Town, he scored what is generally considered the best goal of his career" - more a nitpick than anything else, I assume McKinstry's book is well-regarded enough to be reliable enough for saying this is a general opinion of most people?

  If it's not RS for this, then it's not RS period. I think it's good enough. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:00, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

My bad, I only checked Google Books, which has one review and a news search for the book was a little scant, but Amazon has lots of very positive reviews, and I found a footnote in The Guardian that praised it being an excellent biography, so I'm happy that it is the conneries du chien as far as Alf Ramsey sources go. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:44, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Managerial career

• What is Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation's reputation as a reliable source like? I do remember the days of Usenet, when anybody would write anything, and while a lot of the FAQs were pretty good for their day, they can't compete with professionally written biographies and almanacs.

  Generally accepted as reliable, although I would struggle to find that written down. I suppose we could find it being used in FAs however. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• What makes soccerbase.com a reliable source? (Not a rhetorical question, I have seen it before in articles, I just can't remember the specifics)

  Generally accepted as reliable, although I would struggle to find that written down. I suppose we could find it being used in FAs however. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• The "1966 World Cup" sub-section has quite a few unsourced ends of paragraphs. I've tagged these for attention. I will say that anyone who challenges the claim that Ramsey is "the only England manager ever to have won the World Cup" is either trolling or in deep denial.

  Addressed I think. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:01, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  Yup, job's a good'un. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:11, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• Is the ""we will win the World Cup" necessary? It doesn't give us anything else on what the previous sentence just said.

  Rephrased. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:03, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Ramsey's statement made three years earlier was looking in doubt now" - I think it would be better to be more concrete and say something like "Ramsey's earlier statement that England would win was looking in doubt"

  Rephrased. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "I'm glad somebody retaliated against those bastards" - minor nitpick, the source bowdlerises this with asterisks

  Difficulty is that the phrase isn't found elsewhere. Thoughts? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  I found this source with it uncensored. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:12, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  Would you consider that RS? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

  Well not really, but it's the only other place I can see it mentioned, and it's the only way I can easily see what the censored word was (although it's kind of obvious). As I said it was a "minor nitpick", I wouldn't worry about it. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 14:10, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "This remains England's best ever position in a major international tournament apart from the 1966 World Cup." - this could do with a source, I'm reluctant to tag as it ought to be easily verifiable, but just for completeness.

  I wonder if you can find a single source for this? The Rambling Man (talk) 13:30, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "The football played by England against West Germany was described by journalist Hugh McIlvanney as "cautious, joyless football"" - nitpicking again, but the source doesn't have the comma in the quotation

  Tweaked, false title adjusted too. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "Although his time with Birmingham was short, he did mastermind a notable victory" - can we pick a different word to notable here?

  Reworded to drop "notable". The Rambling Man (talk) 13:11, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Personal life

• "going so far as to adopt a speaking accent" - do we need to qualify this with "speaking" or will "an accent" do?

  I agree. Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:04, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

• "It was rumoured that Ramsey had Romany (or "gypsy") ancestors" - rumoured by whom exactly? This seems a little vague, particularly when it's making a supposedly racial slur against a well-respected person

  Well, plenty of sources talk about it in such terms, such as The Daily Telegraph and McKinley. There are other refs out there too, e.g. this one, this one, etc. I don't think the article is saying anything that plenty of RS isn't saying. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:05, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

I think, drop another source in such as one of the biographies so we have two very good references to this, and I think that should do. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 13:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Done. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:10, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

• "He propagated this false age for over two decades, in press articles, his autobiography and Who's Who" - the source here is a shortened footnote that goes to a full reference that doesn't exist - I fixed this
• "deciding that he could not lie to Debrett's" - a brief description on who Debrett's are would be useful

  Added. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:07, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Retirement and death

• It seems a bit odd that this section starts off with a bunch of quotations. Can't we just rewrite it as prose?

  Re-written a bit. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:51, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

• Do we know if Lady Victoria is still alive - she must be approaching 100 if she is

  Per The Daily Mail (RS!), she was still kicking in July 2016, aged 95, per this story. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:03, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Okay, my point was just to check the article was up to date. I wouldn't ask for anything more than an additional "until her death in [year]" to be added with a source at whenever the appropriate point is. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:31, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Legacy

• This section seems a little short, and could benefit from a few other quotations. Reading through the article I get the impression that Ramsey was fondly remembered by players, but snubbed and looked down on by senior management and officials, and the contrast between winning the World cup in 1966 and failing to qualify for 1974 means views on him do seem to be mixed.

  I think the detail stands up quite well in comparison to other articles, e.g. Alex Ferguson, Bobby Robson, etc. The main point here is really that he was pretty much ignored post-retirement. Sadly. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:57, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

• I think to make the claim "He remains widely regarded as one of British football's all-time great managers" in the lead stick, we need to spell that out in detail in this section, so nobody goes away with any POV worries.

  "Ramsey was listed in the top ten best British managers ever in The Independent.[166] He is widely regarded as one of British football's all-time great managers.[160][167][168] " is here in this section, how do you want that expanded? Some journalists and players/managers thought he was one of the all-time greats... The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Summary

The prose is great, a truly enjoyable read and I felt I learned something about Alf Ramsey that I didn't know before, which is good. There are a couple of places where the sourcing falls down a bit, but given the team we have behind this, I don't see that as a major problem, and should be easy to resolve. I'll put the review on hold now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:50, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Responder comment

Thanks! I've done a few of these, but I'm off to California now, so hopefully Dweller or Cliftonian can deal with the remaining minor items. If not, I'll be back in a week or so. Apparently they do have the internet over there, so all may not be lost at this time. Wish me luck! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Okay, well I might see what I can do as well, though obviously I don't have any of the paper sources. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 21:42, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Ritchie333 my co-contributors are otherwise engaged, I've made some attempts to cover your concerns with the exception of the "wistful" prose, which I personally don't object to, but also don't have the original source handy to see what it really said. How are we looking? The Rambling Man (talk) 21:58, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

I think we're looking good. I think the "whimsical" prose is not a problem for GA, though it will be for FA. So, I think it's all over .... it is now. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:26, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Fair use image abuse klaxon....!!!!!!!!! The Rambling Man (talk) 22:27, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Damn, thought all 1960s B&W photos were "printed without a copyright notice" jobs Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:29, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

No worries. Although I will add it to your desysop Arbcom evidence pack.............. (p.s. unless The Boat Races 2017 piques your fancy for a review?) The Rambling Man (talk) 22:31, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

I would, but I've had a long day and I'm off to bed, so the pile of errors on ERRORS will have to wait for another admin I'm afraid :-/ Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 22:35, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, there are no other admins. Sleep well. I'm off for a Bud. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:37, 9 April 2017 (UTC)

Knighthood

I wanted to check something; should the football biography infobox not include awards, if possible? Including his knighthood? Not to mention the fact that the infobox also does not show his name as "Sir Alf Ramsey", but instead lacking the knighthood. Balag12 (talk) 11:34, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

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