Talk:Albert Chen Hung-yee

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 06:52, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Albert H. Y. Chen → Chen Hung-yee, Albert — Relisted billinghurst sDrewth 03:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)User:218.102.86.116 15:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose That's not how we sort names here. I suggest to move to Albert Chen, however. --Schuhpuppe (talk) 22:24, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment The one quoted reference has "Professor Albert Chen Hung-yee", so how maybe Albert Chen Hung-yee is a better solution for consideration. Also, please don't confuse sorting to name title, they are separate. billinghurst sDrewth 03:25, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose Would support a move to Albert Chen Hung-yee. Skinsmoke (talk) 05:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose the proposed move, but agree that Albert Chen Hung-yee is the best article title yet suggested. The others should both be redirects. Andrewa (talk) 07:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment can we codify the format (EnglishName FamilyName ChineseGivenName) into a guideline, say MOS:HK ? We keep running into WP:ENGVAR issues with people saying that Hong Kong English usage doesn't count, and moving articles away from it. 76.66.192.55 (talk) 22:08, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment I'm not sure English variations have much to do with this one. The source included in the article, from Hong Kong, uses the format Professor Albert Chen Hung-yee. Is there any evidence to suggest he is known differently in Hong Kong English? Skinsmoke (talk) 01:23, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment that is Hong Kong English. "Albert Chen" is other English, "Chen Hung-yee" is Cantonese. "Albert Hung-yee Chen" or "Hung-yee Albert Chen" is the format used in Anti-Hong Kong English proposals that people seem to voice in various other WP:RM discussions dealing with Hong Kong people. 76.66.192.55 (talk) 02:40, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
• Proposal Can we all agree on a move to Albert Chen Hung-yee in that case? Skinsmoke (talk) 07:06, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Support this proposal (as already indicated above). Andrewa (talk) 17:47, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Oppose' That format had been proposed in other articles before and was always rejected. The only acceptable name here is Albert Chen per WP:UCN and WP:MOS. Tvtr (tlk–cntrbtn) 20:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Perhaps Tvtr would like to explain his comment. There is no evidence that Albert Chen is the name commonly used for this individual in English, let alone in Hong Kong English. On the contrary, the only evidence we have so far is that he is referred to as Albert Chen Hung-yee. In addition, I can see nothing in WP:MOS that relates to this discussion whatever. Can he/she point to a relevant section? Skinsmoke (talk) 22:26, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Agree Both WP:UCN and WP:MOS appear to me to support this proposal, despite Tvtr's citing them as reasons for opposing it. Fortunately the closing admin will look at the arguments, not just count the votes. No change of vote. Andrewa (talk) 00:51, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Take a look at WP:NC-ZH, namely under the General principle section. I know it's only a guideline, so I cited WP:UCN because it's a policy. This proposal is not supported by the WP:UCN, I don't know where you guys see in the policies that says it support a longer name such as Albert Chen Hung-yee, the shorter name Albert Chen is definitely the preferred choice suggested by WP:UCN, especially when he's currently the only notable person with the name Albert Chen supported by WP:N on Wikipedia. Tvtr (tlk–cntrbtn) 18:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment I don't see that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Chinese) is much help here. If there was no example of the name being used in English, and we had to transliterate from Mandarin or Cantonese, then it might have some relevance. However, in this case, we have a citation which shows the use in English. Wikipedia:Article titles (which WP:UCN redirects to) does indeed tell us to use the common name in English. It does not tell us to invent one. Tvtr has so far failed to come up with a single example of this person being referred to as Albert Chen. Until he does so, we must assume that the common name is most definitely not Albert Chen, as the evidence so far points to Albert Chen Hung-yee. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:06, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Once again, your argument is not supported by the WP:UCN. This article can be named in several forms Albert H. Y. Chen, Albert Chen Hung-yee, or Albert Chen. Per the WP:UCN, one of the criteria to determine the ideal title is to be Consistent – When other criteria do not indicate an obvious choice, consider giving similar articles similar titles. Take a look at Category:Hong Kong people, why is this article going to be unique from all those article names in the same category? The name you suggested was only mentioned once in one of the source, the person was referred as Albert H Y Chen in other part of the source. I also found a source where he was translated to only Albert Chen. Per the WP:UCN, names of people should use the common form: Albert Chen (Not "Albert Chen Hung-yee") Tvtr (tlk–cntrbtn) 20:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment If tlk has found a source that uses Albert Chen, it might help if he shared it with the rest of us (he hasn't previously mentioned this source). It might save an awful lot of arguing. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:04, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Comment Ah! I see tlk has now added the source to the article. Presuming that this is the same person (I notice that the name in Chinese characters is the same), and as this is the name under which he has published the article, this may well change everything. We now have two sources, one using Albert Chen Hung-yee and one using Albert Chen. Either of those would be an improvement on Albert H. Y. Chen. Now that an example has been found, the quote about consistency is one of the things we can take into account in choosing which name to select. Moreover, a quick Google search in English, confining the sources to Hong Kong, gives 675 results for Albert Chen excluding Hung-yee and just 86 for Albert Chen Hung-yee. While some of those for Albert Chen may refer to other people with that name, most appear not to. I think a case is now starting to build that Albert Chen is indeed the common use in Hong Kong English. Skinsmoke (talk) 16:19, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pinyin

Why does this article use Pinyin? Hong Kong is a Cantonese speaking region which uses Jyutping and Hong Kong romanizations, not pinyin, which is a Mandarin romanization. 76.66.192.55 (talk) 22:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)