Talk:2024 Hathras crowd crush

Why is this article being called a stampede? It was a crush!

Main articles: Stampede § Human stampedes and crushes, and Crowd collapses and crushes

I see some flip/flopping of the name, so I won't get involved in the move war. Descriptions of the event make it very clear that there was a gross failure of policing.

• Grief and anger after India crush kills 121 (BBC)
• India deadly crush blamed on huge overcrowding as death toll passes 120 (The Guardian)
• Crush at India religious event kills more than 120, mostly women (CNN)

Al Jazeera and Sky say "stampede" but fail to justify their choice of words. 𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 23:41, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Nineteen of the article's sources say stampede, while only three refer to it as a crush. Celjski Grad (talk) 09:39, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 4 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. While some of the arguments in favor of moving were very weak, even after discounting those there remains a consensus to move.

I note that there was little discussion of whether to include the year, or whether to move from "Uttar Pradesh" to "Hathras". This close should not be seen as a consensus for either of those, only for "crowd crush", and editors should feel free to open a new RM on either of those questions at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 03:43, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Uttar Pradesh stampede → 2024 Uttar Pradesh crowd crush – See above comment. Many news sources call it a "stampede", but this is usually a misnomer, as most "stampedes" are actually crowd crushes. Natg 19 (talk) 00:49, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support Rename to the correct term. The current title is inaccurate and offensive anti-Indian hate speech. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 02:14, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
• Move to Hathras stampede. The year isn't needed, the location should be specified and the type of disaster should be corrected. 2A00:23CC:B4AA:2F01:AE2F:488C:4D7D:E9F5 (talk) 02:36, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
• Wait. RSs appear not to agree on whether this is a stampede or a crowd crush and neither term appears to be common enough to be a WP:COMMONNAME. Aydoh8 (talk | contribs) 03:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Not all news sources are as reliable as scholarly sources. The WP:COMMONNAME argument does not apply here:

Opposition mostly focused on the term "stampede" being more commonly used in reliable sources. However, WP:COMMONNAME is not the only aspect of the article titles policy, and in fact states, "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources
— User:buidhe 13:37, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Additionally, WP:CONSISTENT applies now because there is a precedent of consensus to use "crowd crush" for humans. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 04:58, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

This close is only relevant if there are RS asserting it is inaccurate to call this tragic 2024 event a stampede. (t · c) buidhe 05:02, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Perfect, it was easy to find RS:

Although much of the media coverage has described this event as a crowd “stampede”, this obscures failings in how the event was planned and run.

, plus an entire "It’s not a crowd ‘stampede’" section and republishing from other reliable sources. Since it is a secondary source criticizing some other primary news reports, the section "A primary source makes a claim that is explicitly called out as wrong by reliable secondary sources." in Wikipedia:When_sources_are_wrong#How_can_we_tell_a_source_is_wrong? should apply. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 05:24, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: Hinduism-related topics notice board, WikiProject Death, Noticeboard for India-related topics, and WikiProject Disaster management have been notified of this discussion. TarnishedPath^talk 08:03, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose, as nineteen of the article's sources refer to it as a stampede, while only three refer to it as a crush. Celjski Grad (talk) 09:40, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

  As mentioned previously by @Natg 19, the word "stampede" is a misnomer, even if most news sources call it a "stampede". I'm Here to Help You (talk) 14:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Strong support. Rename as per WP:COMMONNAME as widely, RS have referred to this incident as a "crowd crush" or "crush". As per above, The Conversation addresses other RS calling it a stampede, writing that this "obscures failings in how the event was planned" in this article.

Some more sources calling it a crush:

1. More than 120 killed in crush at India religious event by BBC

2. Crush at India religious event kills more than 120, mostly women by CNN

3. Scores of people fell to their deaths in an open sewer during crush at religious event in India by The Independent

4. At least 116 killed in crush at Hindu gathering in northern India, say officials by The Guardian

Further, The New York Times, has an article titled, Stampede at Religious Gathering in India Kills More Than 100 but describes it as a "crush" at least three times in the same article.

As per WP:TITLE the new title would resemble similar articles such as 2023 Brazzaville crowd crush, Astroworld Festival crowd crush or Sanaa crowd crush. Lord Clayton7 (talk) 12:18, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Cherry-picked sources. Google itself says "2024 Hathras stampede" when you search "2024 Uttar Pradesh stampede", which means it is the WP:COMMONNAME used by media.--Gan Favourite (talk) 15:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per previous consensus on List of crowd crushes. Borgenland (talk) 15:30, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
• Strong support. Rename as per WP:COMMONNAME. A stampede implies there’s space to run, while a crowd crush means there’s little to no room to move or even breathe. Given the facts of the event, it would be a crowd crush. Jurisdicta (talk) 20:33, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose The article is titled based on WP:COMMONNAME. Articles with such titles have appeared in recent history as well - eg- 2013 Madhya Pradesh stampede, 2014 Multan stampede and 2014 Shanghai stampede ~Spworld2 (talk) 1:16, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Those articles are not recent history. A distinction between stampedes and crowd crushes (Benedictus 2015, and the Wikipedia discussions) has developed since then. Both scholarly and Wikipedian consensus can change, and previously common terms can become offensive. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 21:00, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
• Or to quote the formal policy WP:AGE MATTERS and WP:Other stuff exists. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 09:51, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
  • Both WP:AGE MATTERS and WP:Other does not apply here as "stampede" is still used in 2024 which is evident from Google search, which means it is the WP:COMMONNAME, and the other examples reasserts the fact that it is not a "cancelled word" in Wikipedia and that there were no issue to use the word if it's the common name, which is also the case now. The problem here is simply arbitrary.--Gan Favourite (talk) 16:09, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Not this event specifically, but these scholarly observations on the stampede/crush debate are particularly relevant:

If you look at the analysis, I've not seen any instances of the cause of mass fatalities being a stampede. People don't die because they panic. They panic because they are dying.

— Keith Still, professor of crowd science at Manchester Metropolitan University

and

... far from mass panic occurring, being in an emergency can create a common identity among those affected. A consequence of this is that people are cooperative and altruistic towards others – even when among strangers, and/or in life–threatening situations.

— Cocking, Drury and Reicher

Are we to give more credence to sloppy tabloid journalism than scientific studies and better quality news sources where the journalists have taken time to review those studies? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:01, 4 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support per my remarks in the preceding section that partially prompted this RtM. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:20, 4 July 2024 (UTC)
• Support, "stampede" insinuates people voluntarily crushing the others in front of them. This encyclopedia need not slander people after death. Zhanmusi (talk) 01:52, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
• Comment as the proposer. I personally do not think "stampede" is offensive or slandering. But want to use the correct wording for the incident and disaster. Natg 19 (talk) 04:57, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support Wikipedia states that human stampedes are extremely rare. Stampedes are caused mostly when animals rush together in panic or fear. That is uncommon in humans. This should therefore be called a crowd crush. Check crowd "stampedes" for more information. -- I'm Here to Help You (talk) 14:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  Or to be a little more precise, the Wikipedia article cites Benedictus, Leo (2015-10-03). "Hajj crush: how crowd disasters happen, and how they can be avoided". The Guardian., which says that "human stampedes" are extremely rare. So the onus is really on those who favour the word "stampede" to provide evidence that this was one of the rare exceptions. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  We can already see the victim blaming, as described by Prof. Galea:

Stampede is a loaded word as it apportions blame to the victims for behaving in an irrational, self-destructive, unthinking and uncaring manner, it's pure ignorance, and laziness ... It gives the impression that it was a mindless crowd only caring about themselves, and they were prepared to crush people. In virtually all situations it is usually the authorities to blame for poor planning, poor design, poor control, poor policing and mismanagement.

— Edwin Galea, professor of fire safety engineering at the University of Greenwich, England

A venue deemed suitable for 5,000 people was licensed [why?] for 80,000 but 250,000 were permitted to attempt access. Why? How is the fault of the victims? Why are the chief minister, the justice minister, the head of the police and the district commissioner not all on trial for culpable negligence? --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 15:13, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Nicely put. I agree. I'm Here to Help You (talk) 02:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• Strong oppose: It should be moved to 2024 Hathras stampede as per WP:COMMONNAME. Google itself gives the name "2024 Hathras stampede" when we search for "2024 Uttar Pradesh stampede" as it is the widely used name by the mainstream media. Besides, the incident occurred in an area in Hathras, not entire Uttar Pradesh, do not sensationalise the title. There is also consensus for using the word stampede as you can see from other articles, means it's not a "cancelled word" in Wikipedia.--Gan Favourite (talk) 15:44, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  The suggestion of a "cancelled word" is yours alone. The challenge is simply that the term "stampede" is wildly inaccurate in this case. There is no evidence of a stampede; there is compelling evidence of a crush (which is what happens when 250,000 people try to get into a venue suitable for 5,000 with no or incompetent crowd control). As WP:HEADLINE explains, Headlines are written to grab readers' attention quickly and briefly; they may be overstated or lack context, and sometimes contain exaggerations or sensationalized claims with the intention of attracting readers to an otherwise reliable article. So what you have collected is evidence of click-bait. Now there's a surprise. --𝕁𝕄𝔽 (talk) 16:24, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

  How many of your popular science sources are professors like those in my reliable sources? WP:COMMONNAME itself says "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources".

  Though I'm no longer absolutist against "stampede". It just that I will only consider that word if someone with a PhD uses it. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 07:02, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose (& Suggestion): Stampede is a much more common word used in this scenario than crush. The article should also be renamed from 2024 Uttar Pradesh stampede to 2024 Hathras stampede/crush since the entirety of the event happened in the Hathras district. Xoocit (talk) 20:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree that Uttar Pradesh should be replaced with the much more precise Hathras. Stampede being more commonly-used doesn't mean we should use it in the title. Many of our articles about crowd crushes wrongly have stampede in their titles & should be renamed accordingly. 2A00:23CC:B4AA:2F01:8CCD:1CFF:FEBB:539F (talk) 02:10, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Since it is common to incorrectly call crowd crushes "stampedes", a redirect may be provided in order to aid those who are searching "2024 Uttar Pradesh stampede". "Stampede" is a misnomer here. Human stampedes are very rare and are caused carelessly by panicking people.

And as for changing "Uttar Pradesh" to "Hathras", I believe that the state is more appropriate here as it abides by Wikipedia's naming format. I'm Here to Help You (talk) 02:18, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with the latter, catastrophies in India have always been named after the city they've occured in unless they've occured state-wide.

Examples for city named catastrophies- 2008 Mumbai attacks, 2008 Jodhpur stampede

Statewide catastrophies- 2016 Uttarakhand forest fires, 2017 West Bengal floods Xoocit (talk) 05:34, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support based on the distinction between the terms stampede vs crush [1] and though RS seem to be mostly calling it a stampede, it seems some may be using the words interchangeably as they're using words like crush [2] [3]/overcrowding to describe the event [4] within the article itself. This, more recent, article has done just that, headline calls it a stampede but within the article there's a visual graphic of how crushes occur (space occupied by # of people). Also per WP:PRECISE would favor article to be named 2024 Hathras crowd crush. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 17:04, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

  • Support based on source provided by Eucalyptusmint and this News article same is briefly described here.

  ~redmyname31~💬 12:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support as per Eucalyptusmint. Moonreach (talk) 17:24, 6 July 2024 (UTC)
• (as proposer) No opinion on whether the article should be titled with "Hathras" or "Uttar Pradesh", just prefer crowd crush instead of stampede. Natg 19 (talk) 03:38, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Does anyone have an opinion regarding whether or not to include the year in the title? 2A00:23CC:B4AA:2F01:8CCD:1CFF:FEBB:539F (talk) 00:38, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

The year must be included, it is essential as per the ongoing format for naming events and to avoid confusion between similar events. Xoocit (talk) 05:35, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

Which similar events? 2A00:23CC:B4AA:2F01:31B0:5512:1584:8866 (talk) 09:14, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

yes, I think including the year helps with precision and recognizability of the event per WP:CRITERIA. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 19:25, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

References

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 11 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 16:31, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

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2024 Uttar Pradesh crowd crush → 2024 Hathras crowd crush – The title should be precise about the location. The article was moved from Hathras to Uttar Pradesh without discussion. Most commenters in the subsequent RM ignored the location aspect of the title. 2A00:23CC:B4AA:2F01:8CCD:1CFF:FEBB:539F (talk) 10:51, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Comment

Common name used to identify the tragedy by news sources outside the state/country; As per similar naming convention to other such events; Agreed consensus in India related disasters
— User:Spworld2 06:47, 3 July 2024‎

Some editors are talking about a previous consensus, but I am having trouble finding the guideline in Category:Wikipedia naming conventions or WP:TITLE. Could the guideline or previous discussion talk page be linked? If not, we would need to investigate reliable sources per nom. 174.92.25.207 (talk) 00:22, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Support: As per my observation, catastrophies in India have always been named after the city they've occured in unless they've occured state-wide. Examples for city named catastrophies- 2008 Mumbai attacks, 2008 Jodhpur stampede Statewide catastrophies- 2016 Uttarakhand forest fires, 2017 West Bengal floods. (Copied from my previous comment) Xoocit (talk) 22:17, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Support: agree that it's more precise and in looking at this list of fatal crowd crushes shared by Borgenland in the discussion above, it looks like most city names have been used, if applicable. Eucalyptusmint (talk) 23:20, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.