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Talk:2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis

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TO DO listEdit

Personally, I think we can begin filtering out the political talk from those who are not major parties to the crisis. The article should start to focus on the events and facts surrounding them. Things look good for now, but I would like to avoid the endless comments from deputies and ministers. Organizations like Foro Penal, the OAS and other observers who monitor the conflicts are notable enough to be included though.----ZiaLater (talk) 01:10, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Same thoughts, I decided not to include a lot of declarations which are better in the Responses article. --Jamez42 (talk) 08:23, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
@ZiaLater and Jamez42: ... some of the bulk here could be solved by addressing the problem of one editor's narrow interpretation and personal opinion about what belongs in Guaido's article versus what belongs here. I believe some text that is here, relating to the policies and actions of Guiado's team, belongs there rather than here, as in any presidential article (eg Chavez, Maduro). I have been stalled on that front, and stopped working on Guaido, hoping for that to be resolved, but it has not. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:42, 28 February 2019 (UTC)

Also before we write about the potential arrest of Guaidó, we should wait before anything happens per WP:CRYSTALBALL. Yes Maduro and Diosdado have said that they will have him arrested and suggested that General Carneiro will be there waiting at the airport. We will see though.

As for events I think should be included include:

  • Arrest warrant for Pemon leader
  • Maduro's claims of Russian aid
  • Release of prisoners on the border
  • Any act of censorship
  • 8 tons of gold

Out of the list, these seem to be the most notable and appropriate.----ZiaLater (talk) 09:24, 1 March 2019 (UTC)

I have added about half of the events in the checklist, mostly about the 23 February events.--Jamez42 (talk) 13:12, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

I have a gut feeling that it would be better to mark this as   Done, archive the half of the items that have been done and keep the other half along with the info about the snipers, so we can consider further the creation or expansion of sub-articles. --Jamez42 (talk) 16:51, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

  1. Juan Carlos Varela, president of Panamá: "Maduro reminds us of Noriega's last days".
  2. 13 violations to freedom of expression on 23 February, according to the IPYS
    National Assembly updated this estimate for the whole February, number is higher
  3. Conatel censored FM Center for covering the shipping of humanitarian aid and carried out a out of schedule inspection. TVN 24 and Caracol Radio were censored too for transmitting the shipping. (suitable for the Aggression towards press personnel)
  4. CANTV blocks El Tiempo of Bogotá (suitable for the Aggression towards press personnel)
    I haven't been able to confirm this one. --MaoGo (talk) 23:38, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
    Sources:[1][2] It seems local internet watchdog VE sin Filtro confirmed the block. --Jamez42 (talk) 23:50, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
  5. Maduro's forces siege the hotel where journalists in Ureña where they were staying. Swedish journalist Annika Rothestein denounced that she was robbed and attacked by government colectivos. National Guardsmen robbed the equipment of Telemundo and Associated Press. Attacks in Táchira, Zulia and Lara. Paramilitares attack and steal press equipment of Venevisión in San Antonio del Táchira. (suitable for the Aggression towards press personnel)
  6. Journalist Ingrid Caribay was censored and fired from Globovisión.
  7. Diosdado's children travel to Russia; each plane ticket was worth over 5,000$. Other high ranking military officers take their relatives away from the country, fleeing to the Caribbean, Miami and Spain
  8. Reports of prisoners released to repress in the border, namely in Santa Elena de Uairén. Detainees were encouraged to defend Maduro. Iris Varela was seen in the border along armed civilians. Varela declared that "Chávez's dream was accomplished"
  9. Pemons set a National Guard outpost in an airport and captured a female soldier in retaliation of their attacks. The soldier was recorded crying and asking Maduro to stop the repression.
  10. Guaidó has met the officers that have defected
  11. Guterres "shocked" by the deaths in Venezuela, asks to avoid lethal force. Bachelet: it's alarming to see paramilitary forces to operate freely in Venezuela (should be included to the Responses article).
  12. Nine Pemons dissapeared, according to Foro Penal

Thank you Zia! If I recall correctly, the gold missing was sent to Uganda. This could be updated since it seems that the gold arrived incomplete and Ugandan authorities started an investigation on the matter. --Jamez42 (talk) 17:23, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

SnipersEdit

I am moving this to talk because the article as of now only mentions top military people; perhaps these could be added if we eventually need a sub-article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

On 17 February, five military personnel and snipers were arrested by the Directorate General of Military Counterintelligence in Ureña, Táchira state, after publishing a video in which they declared support for Guaidó.[1]

References

  1. ^ "Dgcim detuvo a cinco militares por difundir video de apoyo a Guaidó". El Nacional (in Spanish). 18 February 2019. Retrieved 20 February 2019.

Discussion of protests in ledeEdit

I've just removed this paragraph from the lede: Mass demonstrations throughout Venezuela and the world occurred on 23 January when Guaidó called for Venezuelans to protest against Maduro.[1][2] Demonstrations in support of Maduro and Chavismo took place as well.[3]

References

  1. ^ "Protestas en Venezuela: miles de personas participan en manifestaciones masivas contra el gobierno de Maduro". BBC News Mundo (in Spanish). 23 January 2019. Retrieved 30 January 2019.
  2. ^ "Las 50 fotos de las masivas marchas contra la dictadura de Nicolás Maduro en Venezuela y Latinoamérica". Infobae (in Spanish). 24 January 2019. Retrieved 30 January 2019.
  3. ^ Sanchez, Ray and Nicole Chavez (23 January 2019). "Maduro defiant as Venezuelan opposition leader declares himself acting president". CNN. Retrieved 30 January 2019.

Not quite sure what to do with it. Is there a better way of saying "there were street demonstrations but no violence or political progress occurred"? power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:49, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

IMNSHO, that text is there to show the "massive" (word used by sources) amount of support that Guaido had for the oath sworn, and in that sense, "political progress" did occur. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:52, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
I'd like to also describe the scope of either military defections or international support for Guaido. "Massive" is an incredibly vague term here. And, ideally, non-controversial enough to not need inline sourcing. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:21, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
I am still intending to fix this ... as soon as I have a free moment LOL !!! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:12, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

JustificationEdit

I think the legal argument for Guaidó is somewhat lost in the details of § Justification for the challenge. Basically, it's that although the constitution did not explicitly forsee the situation where valid elections cannot be held, Articles 333 and 350 impose a duty to do something, and filling the position with the President of the National Assembly until they can be best fulfils the intent of Article 233.

I'm trying to work out the overall phrasing... something like:


The Venezuelan opposition bases its actions on the 1999 Venezuelan Constitution, specifically Articles 233, 333 and 350.[1] The first paragraph of Article 233 states: "The President of the Republic shall become permanently unavailable to serve by reason of any of the following events: death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability; ... abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote."

Later paragraphs describe what to do in the event of a vacancy due to "permanent unavailability to serve", depending on when the vacancy occurs:

  • Prior to elected President's inauguration, "a new election ... shall be held within thirty consecutive days ... The President of the National Assembly shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic".
  • During the first four years of President's six-year term, "a new election ... shall be held within thirty consecutive days ... The Executive Vice-President shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic".
  • During the last two years of President's six-year term, "the Executive Vice-President shall take over the Presidency of the Republic until such term is completed".

Article 233 was invoked after death of Hugo Chávez, which took place soon after his inauguration, and extraordinary elections were called within thirty days.

Article 333 calls for citizens to restore and enforce the Constitution if it is not followed. Article 350 calls for citizens to "disown any regime, legislation or authority that violates democratic values".

In 2019, the National Assembly invoked Article 233, declaring the President's position abandoned due to the lack of valid elections, arguing that "de facto dictatorship" means there is no democratic leader.[2] Although the constitution did not forsee the present circumstances where there has been no valid election, and holding one within 30 days does not appear to be possible, the National Assembly argue that Articles 333 and 350 impose a duty to act, and having the President of the National Assembly fill in until valid elections can be held best upholds the intent of Article 233.

The contrary argument is that Article 233 only allows such a substitution "prior to elected President's inauguration" and Maduro's inauguration on 10 January preceded the National Assembly's actions. The response is that Maduro was not elected and so the inauguration was invalid.

Invoked by the National Assembly, Guaidó was declared interim president for thirty days until elections could be held; Diego A. Zambrano, an assistant professor of law at Stanford Law School, says that "Venezuelan lawyers disagree on the best reading and of this provision. Some argue Guaidó can serve longer if the electoral process is scheduled within a reasonable time".[3] The National Assembly announced that it will designate a committee to appoint a new National Electoral Council, in anticipation of free elections.[4]

The National Assembly argues that both the national and international community must unite behind a transitional government that will guarantee humanitarian aid, bring the restoration of Venezuela's rule of law, and will hold democratic elections.[5]


Any opinions? I'm trying to present the argument fairly, without imposing a POV on it. 209.209.238.189 (talk) 18:14, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

In my opinion, it looks a little long and a bit POV; if there was a way to compress it just a little and make the paragraph starting with "The contrary argument" a little cleaner, I think it would be a good replacement. I would also remove the paragraph break between "Article 233..." and "Article 333..." and remove the last 2 paragraphs as they don't seem to fall under the "Justification" (more of like the logistics of following through, which are talked about in much greater detail elsewhere). Integral Python click here to argue with me 12:55, 5 March 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela (in English)" (PDF). 2009. Archived from the original (PDF) on 9 March 2016. Retrieved 7 February 2019.
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference :2 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  3. ^ Zambrano, Diego A. (1 February 2019). "Guaidó, Not Maduro, Is the De Jure President of Venezuela". Lawfare. Retrieved 4 February 2019.
  4. ^ "Asamblea Nactional on Instagram". Official Page of Venezuela National Assembly (in Spanish). Instagram. 4 February 2019. Retrieved 4 February 2019.
  5. ^ Guaidó, Juan (15 January 2019). "Maduro is a usurper. It's time to restore democracy in Venezuela". Washington Post. Retrieved 16 January 2019.

Justification proposalEdit

I suspect this proposal has been ignored because the wall of text is too hard to sort. Here is the current text, and the proposal, side-by-side. I don't have too much of a problem with it, other than, it is unsourced. I agree with IntegralPython that it is long, but I disagree that it is POV. It is moving in the direction of providing more balance, as it provides a counterargument which is not now in the article. But the new material would need to be sourced. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:17, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

 CURRENT
The Venezuelan opposition bases its actions on the 1999 Venezuelan Constitution, specifically Articles 233, 333 and 350. The first paragraph of Article 233 states: "The President of the Republic shall become permanently unavailable to serve by reason of any of the following events: death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability; ... abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote."[1]

Later paragraphs describe what to do in the event of a vacancy due to "permanent unavailability to serve", depending on when the vacancy occurs:[1]

  • Prior to elected President's inauguration, "a new election ... shall be held within thirty consecutive days ... The President of the National Assembly shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic".
  • During the first four years of President's six-year term, "a new election ... shall be held within thirty consecutive days ... The Executive Vice-President shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic".
  • During the last two years of President's six-year term, "the Executive Vice-President shall take over the Presidency of the Republic until such term is completed".


Article 233 was invoked after death of Hugo Chávez, which took place soon after his inauguration, and extraordinary elections were called within thirty days. In 2019, the National Assembly invoked Article 233 due to abandonment of [President's] position, arguing that "de facto dictatorship" means no democratic leader.[2] Invoked by the National Assembly, Guaidó was declared acting president until elections could be held; Diego A. Zambrano, an assistant professor of law at Stanford Law School, says that "Venezuelan lawyers disagree on the best reading of this provision. Some argue Guaidó can serve longer if the electoral process is scheduled within a reasonable time".[3] The National Assembly announced that it will designate a committee to appoint a new National Electoral Council, in anticipation of free elections.[4]

Article 333 calls for citizens to restore and enforce the Constitution if it is not followed. Article 350 calls for citizens to "disown any regime, legislation or authority that violates democratic values". The National Assembly argues that both the national and international community must unite behind a transitional government that will guarantee humanitarian aid, bring the restoration of Venezuela's rule of law, and will hold democratic elections.[5]

 PROPOSED
The Venezuelan opposition bases its actions on the 1999 Venezuelan Constitution, specifically Articles 233, 333 and 350. The first paragraph of Article 233 states: "The President of the Republic shall become permanently unavailable to serve by reason of any of the following events: death; resignation; removal from office by decision of the Supreme Tribunal of Justice; permanent physical or mental disability; ... abandonment of his position, duly declared by the National Assembly; and recall by popular vote."[1]

Later paragraphs describe what to do in the event of a vacancy due to "permanent unavailability to serve", depending on when the vacancy occurs:[1]

  • Prior to elected President's inauguration, "a new election ... shall be held within thirty consecutive days ... The President of the National Assembly shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic".
  • During the first four years of President's six-year term, "a new election ... shall be held within thirty consecutive days ... The Executive Vice-President shall take charge of the Presidency of the Republic".
  • During the last two years of President's six-year term, "the Executive Vice-President shall take over the Presidency of the Republic until such term is completed".


Article 233 was invoked after death of Hugo Chávez, which took place soon after his inauguration, and extraordinary elections were called within thirty days. Article 333 calls for citizens to restore and enforce the Constitution if it is not followed. Article 350 calls for citizens to "disown any regime, legislation or authority that violates democratic values".[1]

In 2019, the National Assembly invoked Article 233, declaring the President's position abandoned due to the lack of valid elections, arguing that "de facto dictatorship" means there is no democratic leader.[2] Although the constitution did not foresee the present circumstances where there has been no valid election, and holding one within 30 days does not appear to be possible, the National Assembly argue that Articles 333 and 350 impose a duty to act, and having the President of the National Assembly fill in until valid elections can be held best upholds the intent of Article 233.[citation needed]

The contrary argument is that Article 233 only allows such a substitution "prior to elected President's inauguration" and Maduro's inauguration on 10 January preceded the National Assembly's actions. The response is that Maduro was not elected and so the inauguration was invalid.[citation needed]

Invoked by the National Assembly, Guaidó was declared acting president until elections could be held; Diego A. Zambrano, an assistant professor of law at Stanford Law School, says that "Venezuelan lawyers disagree on the best reading and of this provision. Some argue Guaidó can serve longer if the electoral process is scheduled within a reasonable time".[6] The National Assembly announced that it will designate a committee to appoint a new National Electoral Council, in anticipation of free elections.[7] The National Assembly argues that both the national and international community must unite behind a transitional government that will guarantee humanitarian aid, bring the restoration of Venezuela's rule of law, and will hold democratic elections.[5]

Article 01:28 March 21 Article talk 18:14 March 4

[2]

References

  1. ^ a b c d e "Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela". Human Rights Library. University of the Minnesota. Retrieved 9 March 2019.
  2. ^ a b c "AN se declara en emergencia ante la usurpación de Nicolás Maduro en el cargo de la Presidencia de la República". Asambleanacional.gob.ve (in Spanish). Archived from the original on 11 January 2019. Retrieved 10 January 2019.
  3. ^ Zambrano, Diego A. (1 February 2019). "Guaidó, Not Maduro, Is the De Jure President of Venezuela". Lawfare. Retrieved 4 February 2019.
  4. ^ "Asamblea Nactional on Instagram". Official Page of Venezuela National Assembly (in Spanish). Instagram. 4 February 2019. Retrieved 4 February 2019.
  5. ^ a b Guaidó, Juan (15 January 2019). "Maduro is a usurper. It's time to restore democracy in Venezuela". Washington Post. Retrieved 16 January 2019.
  6. ^ Zambrano, Diego A. (1 February 2019). "Guaidó, Not Maduro, Is the De Jure President of Venezuela". Lawfare. Retrieved 4 February 2019.
  7. ^ "Asamblea Nactional on Instagram". Official Page of Venezuela National Assembly (in Spanish). Instagram. 4 February 2019. Retrieved 4 February 2019.

Media and other countries refer Guaido as Interim President, not Acting President.Edit

Here's how the media(reliable sources) refers to him: https://www.france24.com/en/20190204-venezuela-europe-france-spain-guaido-interim-president https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-spain/spain-recognizes-guaido-as-interim-president-of-venezuela-idUSKCN1PT0OR https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-spain/spain-recognizes-guaido-as-interim-president-of-venezuela-idUSKCN1PT0OR The US government too refer to him as Interim President: https://www.state.gov/secretary/remarks/2019/03/289874.htm Is he Acting President? No, he is Interim President according to media, other government including that of the USA the main backer/supporter. RBL2000 (talk) 22:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

And he's acting president to the National Assembly, and thus to a body elected by the Venezuelans.--Jamez42 (talk) 23:26, 10 March 2019 (UTC) (edit conflict)
  • Jamez42, why should we take SandyGeorgia's word for it? Why not that of the mainstream media/reliable sources along that of various goverments that support Guaido as Interim President, not as acting President. RBL2000 (talk) 23:25, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Sandy's??? I stated a discussion in Guaidó's article regarding the difference between acting and interim, I recommend you to read it before making further changes. --Jamez42 (talk) 23:29, 10 March 2019 (UTC) (edit conflict)
I wasn't aware of that discussion thus this came out of blue to me the change. RBL2000 (talk) 23:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
  • @RBL2000:, you started the same discussion on multiple pages, creating a tonna work. On which page do you want to have the discussion? Could you please pick one, and make a post on the others pointing to the discussion page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:27, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
We can do it in this one, I made multiple as to point that out at how mainstream media and various countries that support Guaido that refer to him as Interim President. RBL2000 (talk) 23:31, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
@RBL2000: will you please go to all the other places where you started the discussion, and put a post stating that the discussion is here, with a link to this page? We cannot hold three different discussions on the same topic. If you want to have the discussion here, please read Statute Governing the Transition to Democracy. He is Acting President by Venezuelan Statutory Law. For the purposes of the rest of the world, what's the difference between interim and acting? In practicality, it's the same thing, so we should call him what he is called in the country where he is called that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:35, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes, I did that though it one it was closed by editor MJL(administrator/moderator?). The issue I am having is that it contradicts what the mainstream media and goverment that support Guaido as they refer to him as Interim President of Venezuela. RBL2000 (talk) 23:39, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. But what is your specific objection to acting vs. interim ... in practicality, it's the same thing, so why can we not respect the Venezuelan statutory term? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:47, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @SandyGeorgia and RBL2000:, yes I saw this and closed it for you. (Not an admin though.) For my part, I will say that I fully agree with RBL2000 here. Calling him "Acting President" feels so unnatural. The translation might be off, but that's how English WP:RS have referred to him. As a non-spanish speaker, I think that is probably what we should go with. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯MJLTalk 23:49, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
To me, the words mean the same thing, but if you all want to argue over a triviality, have at it. Just please respect work that others are trying to do, keep your discussion in one place, and please don't ping me to such a silly discussion. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:49, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
Yes to you yourself yet according to the mainstream media and countries that support Guaido including the US refer to him as Interim President and not Acting President which changing that on English language part of Wikipedia would and will cause confusion among readers along with editors as no English language media nor statement from countries refer to him as Acting President, again they refer to him as Interim President which also makes more sense since the post Guaido takes is temporary. IIRC his post should last 1 month after announcement and then elections be held which expired long ago and there has not been change between regimes/goverments. RBL2000 (talk) 13:16, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Guaidó is a deputy, self-declared interim president. There are plenty of sources: CNN, Reuters, Euronews, Aljazeera. emijrp (talk) 09:04, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

Following the discussion in the Guaidó talk page, the National Assembly has been clear on the steps to transition: cessation of the "usurpation", transitional government and free elections, in that order. Before Maduro steps down, there's not transitional government, thus no interim president, only acting president. It's one of the reasons elections have not been summoned, a responsability of an interim president, because it is the third point and Guaidó has established that the Electoral Council must be renewed. Yes, there are many sources that have referred to him as "interim president", most likely for the sake of simplicity and the complexity of the situation, as well as just president of the National Assembly or even dictator, but plenty of other sources also refer to him as acting president: Aljazeera, CNN, Voice of America, EFE, France24, Japan Times, New York Post, SCMP, to name some, sometimes with the word being used exchangeably. That said, the question is if we should add content based on perception or in facts that have been presented here. --Jamez42 (talk) 06:31, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

And the problem with our incorrect terminology now is that, should this go to another level, then we will have even greater confusion, since the new title would need to be clarified. We should get it right now; the only reason we didn't is that no one had translated the transitional statute until this week. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:53, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

propose new page section: "journalism crackdown"Edit

So Censorship in Venezuela has been going on for a long time, but it seems in the last week or so that there has been a lot more action against journalists in the country, be they Venezuelan or foreign. Would a section on either this page or the censorship one be appropriate? Kingsif (talk) 07:07, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

I think @MaoGo: has it covered already, here. I am not sure this "crackdown" is any worse than it has always been; just getting more attention. And I think "jouralism crackdown" as a heading would invite problems. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:09, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I agree with what Sandy says with the intensity, usually the worst crackdowns have been during protests waves (2014 and 2017). --Jamez42 (talk) 10:52, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I agree with Sandy and Jamez, the section is there. If eventually, we have to split the article again, we could consider a new article on censorship and journalism. Speaking of journalism, Billy Six (detained in November) was released, but it is unclear to me if the release has anything to do with the extreme right party of Germany AfD, to treat carefully. DW video and article.--MaoGo (talk) 19:24, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

@MaoGo:, CNN reporter apparently in Helicoide ... http://talcualdigital.com/index.php/2019/03/16/rafael-gonzalez-esta-detenido-en-el-sebin-del-helicoide-segun-informan-a-familiares/ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:29, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

  • Glad to see there's already a section that I clearly skimmed (oh no). Perhaps noting there's more reports; I am certain that during protests there's a lot more censorship, but it's as if they're not trying to hide it anymore... ay Kingsif (talk) 23:18, 16 March 2019 (UTC)
I think more foreign journalists have been arrested/detained than in previous years. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:02, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

I would like to say that even if recently I have kept the section up to date, everybody is free to add more info. I think Jamez42 has added more to than I have.--MaoGo (talk) 08:13, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

RedirectsEdit

Started discussion on the 2019 Venezuelan coup d'état and the 2019 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt redirects. --Jamez42 (talk) 13:42, 18 March 2019 (UTC)

Size againEdit

We were again approaching readable prose limits, with still more content to write. From this version yesterday to this version, I reduced almost 1,000 words-- all of it moved to 2019 shipping of humanitarian aid to Venezuela. (A reminder to folks of Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia; whenever you copy text from one article to another, you should provide an edit summary with a wikilink to the article from which you copied the text-- I am noticing this is rarely done in Venezuelan articles.)

And then I tried to reduce WP:PROSELINE and convert 2019 shipping of humanitarian aid to Venezuela to a fully contained readable article; could others please have a look at it?

For the longer term, I am thinking we may eventually end up with two other sub-articles (but not yet): one for the press and censorship issues that occurred during the pres. crisis, and one for the defections (where we could use text like the section just above this one). But for now, we have room to grow, and we can cut to new sub-articles only if/when the need arises. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:10, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Seems like a good job :) I thought about moving information in the press attacks sections to the censorship article, but it seems like it currently doesn't cover attacks on press workers or detentions. --Jamez42 (talk) 16:34, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
I am thinking we can re-visit that whole thing in a week or two, and that we should keep a list of things we might add should we need to create a separate article which deals only with press/censorship during the crisis (same for defections). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:38, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Too many changes to look at. May we have a summary? Where did the last sections go?--MaoGo (talk) 07:51, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

A whole lot of the "Humanitarian aid" and "February confrontations" is moved to 2019 shipping of humanitarian aid to Venezuela, mostly here.
The rest of "February confrontations" rolled in to "Humanitarian aid" here, with a new split for February: Lima Group meeting.
The "Foreign aid" section moved there also, here.
"Petroleum sanctions" is generalized and expanded to "Sanctions" and is now in the "Reactions" section.
@MaoGo: So this article now has about 800 words on Humanitarian aid, where the earlier version had 1,700 in three sections: "Humanitarian aid", "February confrontations" and "Foreign aid". SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:44, 20 March 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. --MaoGo (talk) 12:42, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

Neutrality Point of View IssueEdit

After going through the page I have noted that several areas seem biased towards each of camps. Kindly when adding content, adhere to WP:NPOV guidelines. This is easier said than done but effort to make the article neutral is needed. Shadychiri (talk) 08:08, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

@Shadychiri: anything in particular that you want to point out? Some users have claimed NPOV without pointing to the issues, and some have been solved already.--MaoGo (talk) 09:33, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

CNN's Rafael GonzalezEdit

@MaoGo: http://elpitazo.net/politica/dictan-privativa-de-libertad-para-rafael-gonzalez/ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:18, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia: I got the articles. But I am busy right now, I may update it tomorrow if you do not mind. --MaoGo (talk) 18:39, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

@SandyGeorgia:I am maybe overthinking this, but this is what I got

Press worker Rafael González was detained at El Helicoide after working in a CNN coverage on 14 March.[1] According to SNTP, he was charged of rebellion, conspiracy and false statement.[1] On 18 March he was indicted with 45 days of custodial sentence.[2][1] According to Efecto Cocuyo his house was also raided.[1] His wife and journalist Evelys Flores considered that the detention was 'arbitrary',[2] and his sister denounced the process as irregular.[1]

There are other non reliable sources out there that are claiming he is just the driver of a security team for press workers [3]. Also I do not have a main statement about irregularity of the case aside from his family statements. Let us procede with caution, what should we keep? --MaoGo (talk) 13:28, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I will look later today, MaoGo. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:04, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ a b c d e Rodríguez Rosas, Ronny (18 March 2019). "Dictan privativa de libertad contra Rafael González y queda recluido en El Helicoide". Efecto Cocuyo. Retrieved 2019-03-17.
  2. ^ a b "Dictaron privativa de libertad al trabajador de la prensa Rafael González". El Nacional (in Spanish). 18 March 2019. Retrieved 2019-03-21.

Censorship and media control splitEdit

@MaoGo, Jamez42, and Kingsif:, maybe it's time for 2019 Venezuelan censorship and media control? That would allow for more in-depth exploration, and could be summarized back to here as well as to Censorship in Venezuela. We are constantly brushing up to size limits on this article, with no end in sight, so maybe just do it? It will also make it easier to keep Censorship in Venezuela updated, since everything for 2019 will be in one article. It does appear, as others have indicated, that there is a journalism crackdown (see section above), sources have mentioned that, so 2019 probably deserves its own article. Putting detail there, and summarizing back to here, will give us more room to develop content here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:48, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

I have to say that I think expanding the article of the Censorship in Venezuela article, although I'm interested in a separate article. The problem I see is that I can't find articles with similar names, and I wouldn't like to limit the attacks to just 2019, including also all the attacks in the 2014 and 2017 protests, for instance. Media freedom in Russia has an interesting estructure, I would suggest to start the section "Attacks and threats against journalists" in the censorship article.--Jamez42 (talk) 21:15, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Created the section, without 2019 for the time being. --Jamez42 (talk) 21:43, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I am indifferent to whichever route you all decide (in the Censorship article, or in an article exclusive to 2019); I just think we will need a separate place, since the issue seems to be increasing rather than abating in 2019. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:05, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
I would prefer a separate article too. --MaoGo (talk) 23:53, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
If a separate article is created, I'd suggest it not to be only of 2019, like for example "Venezuelan censorship and media control", "Venezuelan censorship and media control under Nicolás Maduro" or something similar. --Jamez42 (talk) 11:32, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
@Jamez42: I mildly disagree. The positive side of having this section in 2019 Presidential crisis is that we can make people aware of the political repercussions of this event. I think a 2019 Censorship in Venezuela or even a 2019 Censorship during the Venezuelan presidential crisis would be slightly better than a censorship and media control article, because the latter will eventually distract people out of the main on-going conflict. --MaoGo (talk) 11:48, 22 March 2019 (UTC)
My fear is that the scope of the article is small and if this pattern continues in 2020, which would be a problem for the name. However, I agree there's enough content to start a separate article. --Jamez42 (talk) 11:58, 22 March 2019 (UTC) (edit conflict)

Developing: Roberto Marrero detainedEdit

Added at Portal:Current events/2019 March 21, but am thinking we might wait for the story to develop before adding to articles. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:36, 21 March 2019 (UTC)
Roberto Marrero. Also attorney for Leopoldo Lopez and part of national team directing Popular Will. It will be better to develop this topic at his bio, to be able to add a brief summary here. (Note there is a female Roberta Marrero [es] on es.wiki. @Kingsif: ??? I will be out most of the day. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:07, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Started, Roberto Marrero, but barely a stub, needs work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:43, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

Return to "2019 Venezuelan presidential crisis" page.