Talk:Swan Oyster Depot

Promotional Tone

Hello, I would like to ask for others opinion on the promotional tone of the article. Following a discussion on IRC this article was moved to the mainspace despite no change being made since it was Declined for what seems to be a very valid reason without further discussion. I therefore suggest we decide whether the Declining reason was valid and whether the move should be overturned.

Pinging invloved editors @Lorromorro, Killiondude, and DGG: Thanks, RhinosF1^(chat)_{(status)(contribs)} 22:34, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi Rhino. You seem to be mischaracterizing the status of the article and the sequence of events. Please point out specific phrasings, as I requested earlier, that are currently in the article that are promotional in nature. Without evidence of currently existing wording that needs to be changed, your request is null. Killiondude (talk) 23:08, 2 March 2019 (UTC)

Tone:

1. "The lines at Swan are known for being long at any time of the day"
2. "Turnover among the service staff at Swan does not change much, and that is often described as a major attraction. "Whether you visited two days ago, or two years ago, you’ll always see the same guys working the counter – fishermen, or fish men, pure and simple, all giving each other a hard time and entertaining and engaging customers in the process, in a way that feels like it's been going on forever...." "
3. "5 Notable diners : Celebrities have been regularly sighted at Swan Oyster Depot over the years. Bing Crosby, Margaret Thatcher, Frances Ford Coppola, Madeline Kahn, Joe DiMaggio, Michael Mina, Claudette Colbert, Julia Child, Nicolas Cage, Éric Ripert, Traci Des Jardins, Bono, to name but a few. James Beard, the famed cook, author, and champion of American cuisine, was a regular as was Anthony Bourdain, who lived in New York and was said to have come to Swan every time he came to visit San Francisco. From the Swan beginning in the early 1900s, a regular following of locals has come either to eat or to pick up seafood to go. There are families that have come for six generations ] and the Swan crew knows the majority of customers by their first name."
4. "Celebrity chef, author, and international television host Anthony Bourdain was a Swan Oyster Depot regular for decades, paid his first visit to Swan Oyster Depot long before he had gained celebrity for his books and television programs. He famously described his relationship with Swan and the reason for his frequent visits with the statement: "True love cannot be denied." Bourdain waited in the line for his place at the marble counter. He never made special requests, relying on the recommendations made by the long-standing Swan staff who make decisions about the day's menu based on what was available fresh early each morning. Even when he was recognized worldwide, he continued to make Swan Oyster Depot on Polk Street a priority stop, alone or with a camera crew After Bourdain's segment of his television show "The Layover" was taped in San Francisco at Swan Oyster Depot and aired on October 15, 2012, the notoriously long lines got longer. "The first thing you'll notice about Swan Oyster Depot is the line outside. The 18-seat seafood counter is an institution in San Francisco—it's been in the same location on Polk Street since 1912—and with the exposure from Anthony Bourdain's television show, put it on many tourists' must-see lists." On the day of Anthony Bourdain's death on June 8, 2018, hundreds of people came to Swan Oyster Depot to pay their respects to the star and remember him at the place he came so often in San Francisco In one of his famous quotes, while eating at Swan Oyster Depot, Bourdain called Swan Oyster Depot 'A touchstone in my worldwide wanderings. A happy zone.' and added 'If I read about myself dying at this counter I'd say to myself, ‘That was one lucky guy.' "
5. "Swan Oyster Depot is known for its selection of fresh and sometimes rare oysters, with the list of what is available changing daily. Olympias are one example, known in the industry as "Olys." During the Gold Rush time in the 1850s, Olys were popular, readily available in the Bay Area, and used in many dishes. Over time, however, because they are smaller and more slow to mature than most other popular oyster varieties, they became less profitable and more rare a choice for most shellfish purveyors to grow. Starting in the 1950s, Olys were sourced from Puget Sound and less common on Bay Area menus. Whenever Olys are available, the Swan staff orders them as a favorite especially coveted by long-time customers. Aside from what may be listed on the menu, the large front window at Swan is a dramatic display showcasing the day's fresh fare, both for those walking in to take something home and those who want to sidle up to the marble counter. Swan has always been primarily a retail fish market with the eat-in feature having come long after Sal bought the place. In addition to the posted menu, there is what has been called a "secret menu," which includes seafood selections that are known and requested by regulars, many of whom have been coming in for decades. The secret menu has such selections as the Smørrebrød, an Open-faced Sandwich; a "Dozen Eggs" which are thin, raw scallops with Sriracha in ponzu sauce, and Sicilian Sashimi."

(most of the quotes & other the material above has sources. They amount to the promotional technique of cherry-picking quotes.

Many celebrated restaurants & similar establishments publish a pamphlet or even a book, intended to be purchased, giving a history of the place emphasising the founder and his family and the other staff. (A notable example of the genre is Russ and Daughters,. These are classic examples of 1st party sources--they may be excellent and informative, but they are still meant as promotional. This article reads like a primitive version of such writing. DGG ( talk ) 05:44, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Hi DGG, I appreciate your response! It is informative. I hope you don't mind that I numbered them so I can reply to each point.

1. Do we remove it completely? I thought it was interesting to note that there is a constant wait.
2. Took this paragraph out.
3. Would a list be better? We do have "notable natives" in city articles. Or do you recommend removal? I thought it might support its notability.
4. I cut a lot of this section.
5. I cut/reworded.

Let me know what your thoughts are now. Killiondude (talk) 06:26, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

OK, I checked a little. It is apparently a very well known restaurant so it deserves a decent article.

(1) I gather from the Yelp reviews it always does have a line, but that's OR. You need better documentation than a one-paragraph mention in a tourist guide. Tourist guides are not RS for anything.

(2) The quote on turnover is too vague to prove anything--same as 2 years ago is an isolated observation.

(3) It's appropriate to mention a notable person if there is evidence that RSs have indicated the fact that he has eaten there as being significant (Like Bourdain) , not just mentions.

Additionally ,after having looked in detail

(1)The NYT reference has a two sentence mention in a long articles about other oyster houses. It does document that it has 18 seats & opened in 1912. It does not document one of the longest continuing businesses, and "one of the.." is meaningless in any case. .

(2)Articles about multiple businesses where this one gets a paragraph along with 10 others do not show notability , and are usually so superficial that it is obvious they are compiled from press releases

(3) If you have 20 refs, and 10 are good sources, the article is much stronger if you omit the weak ones.

(4)normally,I'd say this is excessive family-related detail in the history, but it seems that this is a good part of what it is known for.. DGG ( talk ) 23:20, 10 March 2019 (UTC)