Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility/Archive 11
 | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Discussion of interest at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Disambiguation
(non-automated message) Greetings, fellow members of WP:ROYALTY! For your information, a discussion on WikiProject Disambiguation's talk page is ongoing regarding the appropriateness of including potential regnal names of European and Jordanian heirs in disambiguation pages related to royalty. Given the relevance to our topic focus, I would especially appreciate any well-informed opinions from our community! Thank you, Hurricane Andrew (444) 03:53, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
New royalty and nobility article creation tool
Hi everyone!
I noticed that plenty of articles relevant to this WikiProject were being created without going through the AfC process. I figured some of you might be interested in keeping tabs on those "ghost" articles, so I enlisted the help of User:AlexNewArtBot to generate a report of new articles that fit some criteria (for example, the presence of the word "marquess"). You can always see the Rules and Match log to see what triggered the bot to display some results over others. A new report is generated every 24 hours, usually between 22:00 and 00:00 (UTC).
If you like it, and given enough time for us to tweak it to avoid false positives, do you think it would be a useful addition to the WikiProject page, under the "articles for creation" part of the bot-assisted list?
Requested move at Talk:William I (disambiguation)#Requested move 10 August 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:William I (disambiguation)#Requested move 10 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 14:38, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Oscar I of Sweden#Requested move 17 August 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Oscar I of Sweden#Requested move 17 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 21:47, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Louis Philippe II, Duke of Orléans#Requested move 20 August 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Louis Philippe II, Duke of Orléans#Requested move 20 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 21:35, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
Requested move at Talk:Eric XIV of Sweden#Requested move 3 September 2023
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Eric XIV of Sweden#Requested move 3 September 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел (talk) 21:47, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
Welsh royalty discussions
There are discussions concerning potential OR, RS and SCOPE issues on Talk:House of Aberffraw (article) and Talk:King of Wales (article), but could apply to other related articles. Editors of this project may be interested in these discussions, specifically those with an interest/expertise in Welsh history. Any contributions to the discussions would be welcomed. Thanks/Diolch DankJae 23:30, 14 September 2023 (UTC)
Purge consorts of pretenders?
I find it strange that List of royal consorts of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies doesn't end in 1861, and that List of Greek royal consorts doesn't end in 1973. Those kingdoms ceased to exist. It seems pseudohistorical to me to list the consorts of pretenders as if they actually still reigned as monarchs. Should we purge them? Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:06, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
Using "House of" for Nobility (not Royality)
I know several years back someone was adamant about using Visconti Family instead of House of Visconti. If this is still the case, someone who feels strongly about this might want to review the edits of MarcBgd (talk · contribs). Peaceray (talk) 20:14, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- "House of" is not really idiomatic Eglish, and somewhat pretentious. Perhaps this is its attraction for some editors. Johnbod (talk) 20:27, 26 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think it may very well be, example being The Fall of the House of Usher. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 02:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Well, no it isn't. That is literally a house. No one ever talks of, say, the House of Cavendish, though I see we have a redirect. Johnbod (talk) 04:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- House of Windsor, House of Habsburg, House of Este, House of Hohenzollern. I think the broad convention is European ruling dynasties (not necessarily royal) are "House of..." but non-ruling aristocratic families aren't. The Visconti being a ruling family, "House of Visconti" I would say is reasonably common.[1]. DeCausa (talk) 06:27, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think Poe wanted to circumscribe the topic to the destruction of the mansion. If you read the story, it is about the end of the Usher dynasty. The fall of it. And the Usher mansion gets destroyed as well as a result of some apparent supernatural connection. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 23:56, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- Well, no it isn't. That is literally a house. No one ever talks of, say, the House of Cavendish, though I see we have a redirect. Johnbod (talk) 04:42, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think it may very well be, example being The Fall of the House of Usher. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 02:57, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Princess Pauline of Württemberg (1877–1965)#Requested move 22 September 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 16:55, 6 October 2023 (UTC)
Australian monarchy's infobox
Should the Australian governor-general be in the infobox of Monarchy of Australia, with the king? We'll need input, on whether or not this should be done. GoodDay (talk) 00:21, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
The discussion is taking place here. -- GoodDay (talk) 00:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Were all 'murdered monarchs' also 'dethroned monarchs'?
Should Category:Murdered monarchs be a subcategory of Category:Dethroned monarchs? Or can one person not be categorised as both simultaneously (as this is either redundant, or will lead to a logical contradiction)?
I'm asking because Anula of Anuradhapura is both in Category:Dethroned monarchs and Category:1st-century BC murdered monarchs. Sorry if this may sound strange or like linguistic nitpicking. But it seems to me that:
- A: If you wikt:dethrone a monarch who is in office, but you continue to let them live (at least for some time), they are simply no longer a "monarch", because they are no longer in office. If they continue to claim to be the legitimate monarch, that makes them a pretender (with no prejudice against whether that claim is legitimate or not).
- B: If you murder a monarch who is in office, then it is redundant to say you've dethroned them; due to being dead, they are automatically no longer a "monarch" either, because they are no longer in office.
- C: If you murder someone after dethroning them, you've not murdered a "monarch", but an "ex-monarch", because they had already been out of office.
- D: If you execute someone after dethroning them, you've not executed a "monarch", but an "ex-monarch", because they had already been out of office.
I know that it can be a point of view (POV) whether the monarch was really dethroned or not, and especially whether they were still the (legitimate) monarch or not. The classic historiographical problem is the Execution of Louis XVI: was that "putting citizen Louis Capet to justice" (D; as revolutionaries saw it) or "murdering/lynching the rightful King Louis XVI" (B; as royalists saw it)? I can imagine royalists will have maintained that Louis was the rightful monarch of France until his death, even though I think there is consensus in historiography that at least the Insurrection of 10 August 1792 and Louis' subsequent imprisonment (13 August 1792 to 21 January 1793) in the Temple fortress until his execution represents a dethronement. That is scenario A, which could still lead to C or D, depending on whether you consider the Trial of Louis XVI to have been legitimate or illegitimate. But scenario B is no longer possible, because Louis was evidently not in office anymore while imprisoned in the Temple.
All this leads me to the conclusion that we cannot simultaneously put people in the Category:Dethroned monarchs and the Category:Murdered monarchs trees. Because it leads to a logical contradiction. The only scenario in which I can see that happening is that if Hank becomes the monarch of Foo, is dethroned but allowed to live (A), and becomes the monarch of Bar, and is then murdered while in office (B). That means Hank is the dethroned monarch of Foo, and the murdered monarch of Bar, but not the dethroned monarch of Bar. Hank would only be in Category:Dethroned monarchs because of Foo. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- In normal language, I don't think a murdered monarch is referred to as "dethroned" (your category B). Dethroned implies that there is life after being a monarch. A murdered monarch is a murdered monarch. They cease to be a monarch for the same reason a monarch dies of natural causes, death, not because they are dethroned. They remain a monarch to the end of their life. We don't refer to dead monarchs as "ex-monarchs". DeCausa (talk) 10:57, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- My thoughts exactly. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:56, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Completely agree with both of you. --Marbe166 (talk) 16:40, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- Almost completely agree, except that in "B" I would classify a ruling monarch that's been murdered as a "past monarch", rather than "no longer a monarch"; a very small distinction but of some importance when it comes to legitimacy/succession: fairly often in history a monarch is murdered only for their heir to ascend the throne, often deriving their legitimacy from shared blood with the previous monarch. I would consider "no longer a monarch" to be more aligned with "ex-monarch", as usually, both imply the line of succession has been vastly disrupted or even ended; while palace/familial coups where a monarch's brother/son/mother's brother's uncle's son seizes the throne do occur, and usually rely upon the legitimacy of the predecessor with some (often extraneous) justification for why the new guy should be able to take the throne, by and large, most cases where the previous monarch is in exile/prison, the line of succession, and the legitimacy derived therefrom, are ended. The distinction, therefore, is that a "past monarch" is fully legitimate and would have continued to be until the end of time or another cause of death, anyone who is "no longer a monarch" has presumably lost their legitimacy ipso facto, the same as an "ex-monarch". Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:30, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- For the sake of clarity and a TL;DR: I agree that: For "A", a dethroned monarch is either "no longer a monarch" or a pretender (if they still press the claim), and that for "C" and "D", if a monarch is dethroned and then murdered or dethroned and then executed, they are an "ex-monarch" at the time of death. My only quibble is that per "B", I believe that monarchs who are murdered while ruling should not be categorized as "no longer a monarch" but as a "past monarch", due to legitimacy considerations. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:35, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't see any distinction between "no longer a monarch" and an "ex-monarch". In normal language, they are interchangeable. But, in any case, I don't think it matters to the question originally posed on the murdered/dethroned categorisations. DeCausa (talk) 06:42, 7 July 2023 (UTC)
- Just to add that there could be some factual ambiguity about whether a monarch was just murdered or dethroned and then murdered during or shortly after the coup. I'm thinking about some of the Roman and Byzantine emperors for example. There may be a case for some of these being in both categories. But that wouldn't mean Category:Murdered monarchs should be a subcategory of Category:Dethroned monarchs, which is the point of the question. DeCausa (talk) 10:20, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- For the sake of clarity and a TL;DR: I agree that: For "A", a dethroned monarch is either "no longer a monarch" or a pretender (if they still press the claim), and that for "C" and "D", if a monarch is dethroned and then murdered or dethroned and then executed, they are an "ex-monarch" at the time of death. My only quibble is that per "B", I believe that monarchs who are murdered while ruling should not be categorized as "no longer a monarch" but as a "past monarch", due to legitimacy considerations. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:35, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
- FWIW - Louis XVI was 'no longer' monarch, by the time he was executed. France had already been a republic for about four months. Examples of former monarchs 'might of' been murdered, while their countries were still monarchies, are England's Edward II & Richard II. GoodDay (talk) 13:37, 9 July 2023 (UTC)
- For the record, the category was renamed from Murdered to Category:Assassinated monarchs. – Fayenatic London 21:44, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
Louis X, Duke of Bavaria
Does anyone know the exact date Louis X, Duke of Bavaria in 1516 Louis became Duke? ✠ Robertus Pius ✠ (Talk • Contribs) 16:20, 12 November 2023 (UTC)