Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 44

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Archive 45

NBL (pre-NBA) division titles

I saw that an editor added championships and division titles from the National Basketball League (NBL) to the infoboxes of Sacramento Kings, Detroit Pistons and Los Angeles Lakers pages. I removed the division titles, because it is not clear if such thing ever existed in that league (either regular season or playoffs). Can someone clarify that? – Sabbatino 13:56, 25 October 2022 (UTC)

@Sabbatino Some sources talk of division titles in the NBL for having the best record in each division.[1][2][3]. This source however states that the winner of the division playoffs will be the division champions. So it probably existed, but a digging in sources is needed to establish whether it was for the best record in the division or for winning the division playoffs. Alvaldi (talk) 21:19, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Detroit Gems

The Detroit Gems played one season, 1946–47, in the National Basketball League (NBL), finishing dead last with a 4–44 record. Some sources state that the club was sold to Minnesota following the season and became the Minneapolis Lakers[4], others state that the team quit the league and the franchise (license?) was sold[5] and some state that the Gems became the Detroit Vagabond Kings.[6]. None of the Gems players played for the Lakers the following season and some of them played for the Vagabond Kings later.[7]. So I am wondering, did the Lakers only buy the Gems' spot in the league, not the club itself, or are the Detroit Gems the original start of the Lakers? Alvaldi (talk) 20:05, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Giannis-Harden rivalry Head to head

I made an article on the Giannis-Harden rivalry, and I was wondering if anyone could help me add a head to head category and make some tables about games they played against each other using these sources. [8]https://basketball.realgm.com/player/James-Harden/Comparison/1598/Giannis-Antetokounmpo/49629 [9]https://www.landofbasketball.com/games_between/giannis_antetokounmpo_vs_james_harden.htm Thanks! Matthew. MasterMatt12 (talk) 19:12, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

NBA general managers team navboxes

An editor has started creating individual team navboxes for general managers, for example, Template:Boston Celtics general manager navbox and Template:Los Angeles Lakers general manager navbox. If I remember correctly, there was never any consensus for such navboxes. Should these navboxes be nominated for deletion? – Sabbatino 09:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

Agreed, these are not good navboxes. Would definitely voice my opinion if an AfD is opened. Not for nothing but the creator of these navboxes has a long history of unnecessary navbox creation spam. SportsGuy789 (talk) 17:00, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

@Lnhbm: Courtesy ping to you, the involved editor.—Bagumba (talk) 09:26, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

At a minimum, these fail WP:NAVBOX #4:

There should be a Wikipedia article on the subject of the template.

Having a sourced list of team GMs helps to verify easily that these navboxes are correct. Of course, these lists would need to demonstrate WP:LISTN.—Bagumba (talk) 10:06, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

There is List of National Basketball Association general managers, although some of it appears to be out of date, and the scope isn't clear. Whenever this topic comes up, I have to mention that teams use different job titles and have different internal hierarchies. For example, the Bulls have both a VP of Basketball Operations and a GM who reports to him. A simple list of "general managers" is more complicated than it appears. Zagalejo (talk) 16:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Incidentally, that is only a list of the current GMs, and does not list past GMs. Agree with your point that someone like Masai Ujiri, Toronto's president of basketball operations, is more thought of as the team's basketball lead than Bobby Webster, their GM.—Bagumba (talk) 16:26, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

There are lots of NBA player articles without the player's career statistics. Here is a list that can hopefully help with that.

Hello, everyone. I posted this message originally on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball, and have decided to repost here as per the suggestion of Sabbatino (talk · contribs) because the subject matter more specifically addressed NBA-related matters on Wikipedia as opposed to general basketball matters. The following repost is verbatim, except in indicated places where the brought-up issues have been fixed.

---

• List of NBA, ABA, and BAA player articles without statistics tables

Hello, all. One thing I have liked to do on Wikipedia over the last four years is add career stat tables to player articles. I know that there are a good amount of editors who also like to do this. Therefore, I made the above-linked list so that any editors can see which player articles are presently statless or otherwise have inadequate representation of their stats, receive ideas on which articles to add stats to, and gauge how much work needs to be done here. The player articles are organized according to rookie season, and alphabetized within their season. Once an editor does add the player’s statistics to its respective article, then the name of the player can be removed from the list.

I would like to mention some trends and factoids I noticed in these articles while compiling this list.

1. All players who debuted in 1946-47, 1947-48, and 1948-49 have their full statistics. Therefore, all BAA players have their stats displayed on the English Wikipedia.
   1. The last player article from the 1946-47 BAA season whose stats were not displayed was that of Chuck Connors, who also played baseball professionally yet was mostly known for his acting career (i.e. The Rifleman). I had fixed this before starting the list.
   2. The last remaining BAA player without stats on his article was that of Andy Tonkovich, and I subsequently fixed that.
2. The rookie classes from 1950 to the mid-1960s were relatively small, and this is reflected in the smaller number of statless articles listed here.
3. I unexpectedly encountered two articles of ABA players, that of Grant Simmons and Richie Moore, that somehow do not yet exist. They were teammates on the 1967–68 Denver Rockets. This issue has since been fixed, thanks to the efforts of SportsGuy789 (talk · contribs)
4. The longest list is the 1967–68 ABA rookie class, with 125 entrants as of this post. One big reason for this is due to the founding of the ABA in 1967.
5. One player who was in both the NBA and ABA has a weird stat table, with the shooting percentages at the far-right of the table. This is not the traditional order, and had I made the list according to the standards I eventually developed, he would have been mentioned on the list as a player article with a stat table that needed further organization. I have presently forgotten who this man is, and if his article can be brought to the fore I would appreciate that. I think he was with the ABA in the late-60s and NBA in the mid-70s, if I recall correctly.
6. After the ABA–NBA merger of 1976, the number of statless articles according to rookie season consistently number in the 40s and 50s, sometimes in the 30s; these numbers start trending downward for the 1998–99 rookie class. Between 1999–2000 and 2006–07, the number of statless entrants are in the teens or 20s.
7. Our English Wikipedia has been excellent at giving stat tables for active or recently active players. All or most players from the last 15 years with at least three years of experience have their stats accounted for. Case in point, the 2007–08 rookie class only has two statless entrants, and the number of entrants per rookie class afterward remain mostly similarly low; statless entrants, with three exceptions, do not exceed five per rookie class.
   1. The 2016–17 and 2020–21 are fully completed.
   2. Statless NBA player articles trend upward again for the 2021–22 season, with 15 entries at present.
8. I did not hold the 2022–23 rookie class to the same standard as past rookie classes, due to 2022-23 being a pending season as of this post. My style is to update once a player's season ends, either naturally or via injury; or their tenure with the team ends partway into the season via a trade, waive, or expired/non-renewed contract. With the aforementioned exemption, I am confident that all NBA, ABA, and BAA players have been accounted for here.

From now on, when I contribute NBA and/or ABA stat tables to Wikipedia, I will also be removing the respective name from this list. It goes without saying that I cannot mandate that everyone else follow suit, but I intend for this list to be communally utilized and not just for my own purposes. Personally, I will be posting the stats of the 1949-50 rookie class more often than other rookie classes, because that is the earliest rookie class that has any statless articles. Once that is completed, I will then prioritize the 1950-51 rookie class, then the 1951-52 rookie class, and so on. If anyone of you want to do it that way as well, you sure can, but no pressure; y’all can make your own patterns as well if you want.

As well, I have plans to make an equivalent player list for the WNBA, likely coming early next year. The WNBA statless article list will be less labor intensive and much shorter, because of the facts that the WNBA is approximately a half-century younger than the NBA; there are fewer WNBA teams in its entire history (18) than the NBA presently has (30); and that full WNBA team rosters are usually smaller than full NBA team rosters, with the traditional number of players being 12 and 15 respectively. I will likewise announce that for community use once such is completed.

Any feedback, fact check of my above claims, and statistical additions are appreciated. And if anyone has any categories this guide can go under, that would be great. Thank you. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 23:50, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

---

I hope that this list can be helpful to fellow editors for the reasons elaborated above. You all can respond here or drop me a line anytime about this. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 03:40, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

WP:NBA project main page needs a revamp

Does anyone else think that Wikipedia:WikiProject National Basketball Association needs a revamp? All sections are out of date, and it looks stale. For such an active WikiProject, the "branding" of this WP is years behind. SportsGuy789 (talk) 18:27, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Do you have examples? It also depends what you consider "active".—Bagumba (talk) 19:08, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Lebron being the main image, w/the caption talking about his 2020 Finals; the links in the 'ongoing tasks' are a decade or more out of date; clearing out the task forces section since literally all of them are inactive; finding a better image to use in the 'Project' subsection (a nosebleed pic of a SuperSonics game?), etc. The page needs a facelift. SportsGuy789 (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

The images are just cosmetic. I was probably the last to update to LeBron (and maybe Curry before that?) I'm ok if anyone wants to boldly update an image. If the task forces are inactive, feel free to delete them. —Bagumba (talk) 12:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

NBA 75th Anniversary Team stats

FYI

You're invited to help reach a consensus regarding handling of the stats listings for the NBA 75 team. Please comment at Talk:NBA 75th Anniversary Team § To update or not to update stats. —Bagumba (talk) 12:36, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Statmuse

What do you all think of using Statmuse as a source? Same with Stathead, I feel it's better to use sources with prose. Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 16:55, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, both websites fall under WP:NOTRELIABLE. Same with ClutchPoints, Bleacher Report and FanSided (due to their editorial and user-generated content). It is better to use something with prose like ESPN's game recaps. – Sabbatino 17:18, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Agree w/Sabbatino. Stathead and Statmuse are clickbait sites and their stats are often aggregated by perusing r/nba and other online sources, which in themselves are not reliable. SportsGuy789 (talk) 00:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

I think Stathead is reliable, it should just be used sparingly, being a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE (I've commented more below).—Bagumba (talk) 02:30, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction on Stathead. I somehow mixed it with some other stats website that has a similar name. And I do agree with your observation about it being a primary source (despite it being run by the same people as Basketball-Reference and others). – Sabbatino 11:03, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Well, I'd call basketball-reference.com a primary source too. —Bagumba (talk) 11:51, 8 January 2023 (UTC)

Treat them as a WP:PRIMARYSOURCE. If a stat was important enough, then it generally should have been mentioned by WP:SECONDARYSOURCEs. We don't want to provide WP:UNDUE weight to random stats.—Bagumba (talk) 02:27, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Noted on all the above. Thank you.Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 18:09, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Notability of 76ers-Bucks rivalry

I was wondering if the 76ers-Bucks rivalry would be notable enough to survive AFD. I made an article on the Giannis-Harden rivalry but it however got deleted and I want to make sure my hard work doesn’t get wasted again. Thanks— Preceding unsigned comment added by MasterMatt12 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

• There seems to have been an article or a draft a while back that got deleted (You cand find it on everybodywiki.com). That one really didn't have great sources that spoke of a rivalry. If you don't have reliable and significant sources that clearly talk about a rivalry between the teams then it probably will get deleted. Then again, I thought the Giannis-Harden rivalry had several of those but others didn't agree, so you never know. Alvaldi (talk) 09:57, 2 January 2023 (UTC)
• A rivalry page needs significant coverage in multiple, independent sources. It needs to meet the guideline WP:WHYN, namely that multiple sources are needed "so that we can write a fair and balanced article that complies with Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy ..." Otherwise, editors cherry-pick facts from routine coverage in recaps of individual games, as opposed to independent sources that look at the rivalry as a whole. Moreover, routine game coverage liberally uses the term rivalry to manufacture hype. We need to avoid original research.—Bagumba (talk) 09:37, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

  Alright, I found a in-depth source from the official NBA website that says, "So next time you think of a great 1980s NBA rivalry, don’t just think of Moses battling Kareem or Doc swooping over Bird. Those Milwaukee Bucks gave the 76ers as many, if not more, fits than the Lakers and Celtics. " So since the NBA clearly thinks that it is notable, I'll get started on the draft now. Thanks for your help!

  Source: https://www.nba.com/sixers/news/rekindling-overlooked-rivalry MasterMatt12^{💬 ● Contributions} 22:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

  WP:GNG expects multiple sources of significant coverage. The sources should also be independent of the subject. —Bagumba (talk) 00:32, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

  https://www.nba.com/sixers/76ers-matchups/milwaukee-bucks

  https://thesixersense.com/2023/01/11/sixers-top-rivals-milwaukee-bucks/

  https://theathletic.com/1487998/2019/12/26/roots-of-a-rivalry-the-factors-that-could-shape-sixers-vs-bucks-a-brewing-battle-of-stark-contrasts/

  https://www.nba.com/bucks/features/boeder-is-bucks-sixers-about-to-be-best-rivalry-in-nba

  Would this be enough to pass WP:GNG? MasterMatt12^{💬 ● Contributions} 00:42, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

  I generally wouldn't consider NBA.com to be independent. Sixersense.com is on Fansided, which I consider too bloggy and unreliable (WP:BLOGS). The Athletic is premature to call a "rivalry": The Sixers and Bucks looked poised to become that next great rivalry at the start of the season..—Bagumba (talk) 04:59, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

List of NBA teams by single season win percentage nominated for deletion

The article List of NBA teams by single season win percentage has been nominated for deletion by User:Natg 19. If you have any opinion on this nomination, you can share your thoughts at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of NBA teams by single season win percentage.—Myasuda (talk) 02:01, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Realgm.com

While beefing up the personal life section of Jett Howard, I just recently discovered career statistics from Realgm.com. Here are two examples:

1. https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Juwan-Howard-Jr/Summary/23972
2. https://basketball.realgm.com/player/Manny-Harris/Summary/2279

They seem to have scraped NBA Summer League, NBA G League, NBA, NCAA and International stats and awards as well as a listing of NBA training camps attended. Do we consider this source to be a reliable enough source to use?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:54, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

If a given stat is available on Basketball Reference or Sports Reference, I'd just cite it from there. No opinion on the others, other than it possibly gets into WP:FANCRUFT for accomplished players. —Bagumba (talk) 14:12, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

- The last discussions I see on this source were 2016 and 2018. Do these opinions still hold?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:10, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

RealGM does not have enough quality control to be used as a reliable source in my opinion.for example, they routinely get birthplaces wrong. Most of the stats listed are available at more reliable sites like basketball-reference, sports-reference and the league sites. Summer League stats should not be included in player articles in my opinion. Those are not official games and adding the stats takes attention always from legit league stats. Rikster2 (talk) 19:46, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

I previously posted my list of NBA articles needing stats. Now, here's a WNBA equivalent.

Hello, all. In December 2022, I completed a list of NBA and ABA player articles that are void of stat tables. Now, I have a WNBA equivalent.

• List of WNBA player articles without statistics tables

I assembled the list while following along with Basketball Reference's list of WNBA players. While I navigated through the list alphabetically, I, just like with the NBA list, sorted the players according to their rookie season, while alphabetizing within said rookie season. Here are some interesting factoids from my research:

1. The longest lists of statless articles, per rookie season, are between 1997 and 2000. 1997, being the inaugural season of the WNBA, has the longest list at 60 entrants. All three years from 1998 to 2000 were expansion seasons for the WNBA, hence the larger number of rookies (without statless articles). 2000 was an especially significant year for WNBA expansion, due to the additions of four teams in the league.
2. 2001's numbers decrease, and has 42 entrants, and 2002 through 2016 have a muted number of relevant articles in comparison, often between 15 and 30 entrants. Only two seasons during this span, 2006 and 2008, have 30 or more entrants.
3. From 2017 onward, the statless article lists are even smaller, exclusively ranged between five and 11 entrants.
4. 2022 is the only WNBA season whose entire rookie list have stats in their articles.
5. Every person who has played in the NBA, ABA, and BAA has an article on the English Wikipedia. However, such is not the case for WNBA player articles. As of this post, there are 133 WNBA players in need of their own articles here. Most of these women only played for between one and three seasons in the WNBA. It goes without saying that all these red links do not have their own stats attached to them. I am absolutely hoping that all of these red links can turn into blue links someday.

So, there you have it. For anyone interested in adding WNBA stat tables to their respective articles, here is your guide. Also, do not forget about the list for NBA, ABA, and BAA players that serves the same purpose. Any feedback is welcome for both lists. Mungo Kitsch (talk) 05:00, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

NBA All-Star Career Statistics

I would like to suggest we include as one of the current taskforce projects an update of adding NBA career statistics of NBA All-Stars who do not have those listed yet. Below is a compilation of those still without any: James Donaldson Antonio Davis Don Buse Bill Bradley Frank Selvy Jeff Ruland Don Kojis John Johnson Hot Rod Hundley Walter Dukes Archie Clark Joe Caldwell Dick Van Arsdale Jeff Mullins George McGinnis Phil Chenier Maurice Lucas Bobby Jones Spencer Haywood Johnny Green Paul Westphal Don Ohl Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 18:39, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

• User:Nintendoswitchfan, I'd suggest to make a direct appeal to a short list of people who do a lot of stat tables. This should be a high priority to them.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:29, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  Got it, and who would some of those people be? Nintendoswitchfan (talk) 16:30, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

  • I am not sure, but there are lots of pages that do get their stats updated. Look around and see who likes to do that sort of thing.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:51, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

NBA All-star game replacements

I don't understand why Jaylen Brown has not been listed as injured for the 2023 NBA All-Star Game. On Feb 8, he was injured and expected to miss multiple weeks per CBS Sports. Surely Trae Young, Zach LaVine or Jalen Brunson could be convinced to make an appearance in his place.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:05, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

• I forgot the All-star game is not a contact sport.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:41, 20 February 2023 (UTC)

Linking G League seasons in career histories

I'm seeing quite a number of G League players' infoboxes having the years/seasons of their careers in the G League linked, which isn't the case way back as far as I can remember. I know that that is the practice for NBA players, but I'm not aware of any consensus of this practice for G League players. Is this fine or could we make a case of WP:OVERLINK from this?

On another note, there seems to be no explicit mention in the style advice page of linking NBA season articles in infoboxes. Can this be added? ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 23:16, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

I noticed that too. My thought is, since individual season articles exist for all G League seasons, and since it's affiliated with the NBA, I'm okay with the G League infobox season links. SportsGuy789 (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

The NBA links are probably also MOS:OVERLINK, but does anyone want to bother to clean it up at this point?—Bagumba (talk) 18:04, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I'd be willing to (slowly) clean those up if the consensus is to do so. *shrug* I'm curious though: has that always been the case from the very start, or some random editor just started linking the seasons in a player's article which eventually became the norm in all NBA players? ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 23:03, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

There was a discussion from 2011 at Template talk:Infobox basketball biography/Archive 2 § The years should be linked to the season articles 2 —Bagumba (talk) 01:14, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

Length of history sections

I've just been looking at the history sections of some NBA teams. These sections are getting insanely long, even in articles where there is a separate article for team history. It seems like people want to add every minute detail to these sections. Next up, we'll see breaking news about a nobody athlete signed to the team the night before under a three day contract who managed to tie his shoelaces while sitting the bench their entire first game with the franchise. It's getting ridiculous.

Example; the franchise history section on the LA Lakers page is over 11,000 words long. That's more than 30 printed pages! The article should summarize, not write a book about the franchise's history.

Please, please, rein this in. Please! --Hammersoft (talk) 19:19, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

I mean.... easier said than done, right? It would be a full-time job to rewrite all those history sections and then push back against the inevitable accumulation of cruft. And to be fair, this stuff likely isn't being added by members of this project, but by IP editors or editors who don't really interact with the greater Wikipedia community.

I share your concern. It's silly for the main Chicago Bulls article to have a full paragraph about the Patrick Beverley signing. It's too early to say if Patrick Beverley will have any long-term significance to the Bulls. But realistically, there aren't enough active project members to maintain every article to an ideal standard. Just telling the project to "rein this in" isn't going to accomplish much. Without a sudden influx of new, talented editors, there's a point where we have to settle for "good enough". Zagalejo (talk) 17:21, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

It gets reined in if anyone cares to take it to WP:GA (or perhaps WP:GAR in the Lakers case). Otherwise, I think many editors are not aware of the concept of WP:SUMMARYSTYLE and that there are more suitable lower-level articles for most content. There's also WP:NOTDIARY.—Bagumba (talk) 17:59, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Better communicating uncertainty in unconfirmed sports transactions

I've started a discussion that could use this project's input at the idea lab village pump. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 23:47, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Linking in lead of BLPs

Is this necessary? I have reverted the editor more than once, but this linking (not to mention a redirect) has been restored. The editor is citing either WP:OVERLINK or MOS:MORELINKWORDS as its reasons. – sbaio 14:04, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

To me this is a pretty nitpicky thing to get worked up about, but the link for both is "basketball." So making the link "basketball player" is silly because it is just forcing a redirect to the main article "basketball." Rikster2 (talk) 14:11, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

That is what I initially indicated to the editor, but the aforementioned policies were mentioned with the addition of "a script", which removes the links. I pointed to FA-class and GA-class BLPs, which simply link to "basketball", but that was also ignored. – sbaio 14:24, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

First off, there was an earlier edit, which used a script, to change the link to "professional basketball". I had complained before at User_talk:Ohconfucius/script#Professional_sports_links, but it seems nothing changed. Perhaps comment there if you want to see that changed. Still, editors are responsible for the scripts they use, not solely the script writer. As for linking "basketball player", that was this edit, not a script. The edit summary claimed MOS:MORELINKWORDS, but I don't see it. A link to "basketball" went to "basketball"; no extra words were need to convey plain "basketball".—Bagumba (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

I think the logic is that "basketball" is so common a word it does not need to be linked. Having had discussions with editors from many parts of the world where basketball is not a popular sport, I think I disagree that a link to the sport is not useful. This is not like linking a country or something like that in my opinion. Rikster2 (talk) 19:37, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

This is getting ridiculous. Now the same editor decided to change a link to Basketball in the United States. Looks like a case of WP:NOTGETTINGIT. – sbaio 05:20, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I've reverted and left a note on their talk page. I hope we don't need WP:ANEW.—Bagumba (talk) 12:14, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

On a somewhat related note, there's this new thread User talk:Ohconfucius/script § Basketball—Bagumba (talk) 14:29, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Multiple NBA playoff bracket templates nominated for deletion

I have nominated multiple NBA playoff bracket templates for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. -fuzzy510 (talk) 18:06, 10 April 2023 (UTC)

Infobox image

FYI

There's a discussion at Talk:Jimmy Butler § Infobox Image about which image to use.—Bagumba (talk) 17:12, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 16:07, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

NBA Play-In Tournament stats

Do NBA Play-In Tournament stats count or are they like the preseason to the NBA playoffs?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:23, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Aren't they supposed to be in a separate category? Howard the Duck (talk) 16:24, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

They're neither regular season nor playoffs stats. They have a separate category in the NBA website. ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 16:26, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

爨龘龘 (talk · contribs) has started adding these statistics to players' BLPs. I have a feeling that this editor might be the same editor as 佳峰 (talk · contribs) since both of them primarily edit NBA-related content. – sbaio 14:12, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

While verifiable, my initial reaction is that the play-in stats are currently WP:UNDUE. They're not even prominent on stats sites AFAICS.—Bagumba (talk) 14:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

If you check Chinese Wikipedia, you will find that I am obviously not him. 爨龘龘 (talk) 14:23, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

And now edits like this has started to appear. – sbaio 15:08, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Red Auerbach

Red Auerbach has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. Onegreatjoke (talk) 21:20, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

Help with college stats table

Ray Hall (basketball) will hit the main page (DYK section) in about 10 hours without a college stats table and Matt Hicks (basketball) will follow a day later. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College Basketball#College stat tables needed for upcoming DYKs, I asked for help with college stats tables. Feel free to help out.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:49, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

making season pages.

hey all !! when is an appropriate time to make pages for each team's (and the league's) 2023–24 season ? thank you and best wishes Ayyydoc (talk) 01:07, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

I think you'll want to wait until there are multiple specific things you can say about the season. We do already have 2023–24 NBA season, but for individual teams, there's probably not much to report at this time, outside of some coaching changes. The articles would just be placeholders, and someone may tag them for deletion. I'd at least wait until sometime in the summer, when transactions begin to ramp up. Of course, you're welcome to start preparing drafts whenever you want. Zagalejo (talk) 14:46, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

wonderful, thank you so much :) Ayyydoc (talk) 15:20, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

WP:NBA tags

Hi guys - I was working the 1990 NBA draft player articles a noticed that a fair number of players who played in the NBA have not have been added to WikiProject NBA on the Talk page, which means they do not come up on work lists and article alerts for the project. I am working through them, but I do not know how widespread the issue is. Many have WP:Basketball, which is not needed if the person only played in the NBA, but is used if they played in other leagues or FIBA. Do me a favor, if you are editing NBA player articles, please take a look at the Talk page and make sure they are in the relevant projects:

• WP:NBA if they played or coached in the NBA
• WP:College Basketball if they played or coached US college basketball
• WP:Basketball if they played in another pro league or represented their country in FIBA events

Thanks Rikster2 (talk) 12:50, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

Maybe make a request to WP:BOTREQ to tag all NBA bios. —Bagumba (talk) 13:04, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

I think the request can use all of the team player categories and add the tag. I've used categories to tag for another project.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:58, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Standings tables

For some reason, the winning percentages in the standings tables all end in .xx1 (e.g. 41-41 shows up as .501). Can this be fixed because this is embarrassing. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:18, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps Frietjes can help?—Bagumba (talk) 15:49, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Bagumba and Howard the Duck, can you link to an example where this is happening? Frietjes (talk) 15:51, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@Frietjes: I saw at 2022–23_NBA_season#Regular_season.—Bagumba (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Bagumba, okay, should be fixed now. Frietjes (talk) 16:10, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck and Bagumba: And what about −3.0 (GB) at 2022–23_NBA_season#Regular_season? I recently saw that and thought if it should be that way. – sbaio 18:06, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

sbaio, that should be fixed now. Frietjes (talk) 20:58, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

NBA record and franchise records for 3s in a playoff season

What is the NBA record for most 3s in an NBA playoff series and NBA playoff season. Also, how can I find franchise records for these stats.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:49, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Couldn't find a great source, but I slogged through Sports Reference to figure out this list:

Curry 98 2015

Thompson 98 2016

Curry 92 2019

Curry 91 2022

Curry 80 2016

Thompson 77 2022

Tatum 77 2022

Curry 72 2017

Thompson 70 2019

Thompson 67 2018

JR Smith 65 2016

Curry 64 2018

DUNCAN ROBINSON 62 2020 has to be the Heat all-time leader for this record.

Still wondering if 20 in a single-series is a Heat record.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:45, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Jae Crowder made 22 three-pointers during the 2020 NBA playoffs#Conference semifinals against Milwaukee. – sbaio 04:53, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Thx User talk:Sbaio. Wow, only 5-game series. Robinson's best two totals 18 and 20 are from 6-game series'.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:19, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

• P.S. User:Sbaio, I am hoping you may have data superpowers or data access. Since only 2 other heat (Damon Jones 2005 EC1stRG1 4/25/2005 and Mike Miller 2012 FG5 6/21/2012) have made 7 3s in a playoff game, I wonder whether Robinson holds any other Heat Playoff records related to his 4/17/22 performance.

1. 5 in a half or
2. 4 in a quarter (tied with Jones)
3. 7 consecutive

Since the Heat have only been to 6 NBA finals (all since 2006) and 22 is the franchise playoff record, it might not be too hard to figure out if

1. 18 made in an NBA finals is a Heat record.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 00:01, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Robinson made eight three-pointers on April 17, 2022, in game 1 of 2022 NBA playoffs#Eastern Conference first round against Atlanta. I look for statistics at NBA.com/Stats, Basketball-Reference or team media guides (2022–23 Miami Heat media guide) and media related to the NBA or that particular team (news articles, Twitter, etc) so I do not have any "data superpowers or data access" (no subscriptions). I should probably remind you of WP:NOTFORUM, because at this point it looks like this. – sbaio 06:45, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Records thresholds

Oddly Kyle Korver holds the Hawks franschise single-season 3-point percentage record, but not the career record per Sports Reference. This is odd because the person who holds the career record only played one season with the Hawks. Thus Tony Snell's 62/109 56.9% qualifies for career but not season records, meaning sports reference has a lower minimum threshold for career than season (probably 50 made or 100 attempted). See (NBA.com vs. Sports Reference).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:13, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

ABA All-Stars

The 1976 ABA All-Star Game, the last one for the ABA, was a team of All-Stars versus the first-place Denver Nuggets. They went to this format from the previous East–West because they only had one division and few teams left. 12 All-Stars were originally chosen, including 3 from Denver (David Thompson, Bobby Jones, and Ralph Simpson).

For the rest of Denver's roster that played in the All-Star game, are they considered ABA All-Stars too? For example, Claude Terry was listed as one on basketball-reference.com I've seen some reliable sources with a complete list of NBA All-Stars, but none for the ABA yet. Sounds weird to cal them "All-Stars", but so be it if sources show it's WP:DUE—Bagumba (talk) 07:23, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Good article reassessment for Effect of Hurricane Katrina on the New Orleans Hornets

Effect of Hurricane Katrina on the New Orleans Hornets has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. 100.7.44.80 (talk) 15:49, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

4-point plays

Is there a good source for four-point play records? Also, is there any distinction between a 3-point shot plus one free throw and the 2-point shot plus two flagrant foul free throws. Also, has there ever been a 5-point play (whereby one connects on a 3-point shot and received two foul shots from a flagrant foul)? Chat GPT says that as of September 2021 James Harden held the single-season record with 6. this old source says he is also the career leader.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:03, 23 May 2023 (UTC)

Finals' starting lineups

Leaf8613 recently restored a separate listing for the series' starting lineup at 2007 NBA Finals § Starting lineups. In the last discussion in 2021 at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 41 § Finals' starting lineups, there was no consensus for this. Howard the Duck brought up potential different lineups in the series too, and sure enough in 2007, the Cavs did not start the same players every game (see Daniel Gibson and Larry Hughes[10]). There was also WP:OR in some seasons with pigeonholing players into old standard roles of PG/SG/SF/PF/C.

Has anything changed on this issue? Note that games started was already a standard stat at 2007 NBA Finals § Player statistics Also pinging Sbaio from the last discussion—Bagumba (talk) 04:36, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Same stand here; is ok with series stats for every person that played. Howard the Duck (talk) 06:43, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Listing statistics of all the players is enough. – sbaio 14:45, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Draft info in bio infobox

FYI

There's a discussion at Template talk:Infobox basketball biography § Template-protected edit request on 30 May 2023 about standardizing a player's draft info in the infobox.—Bagumba (talk) 10:37, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

NBA Draft 2023 Vandalism

On the 2023 NBA draft page, people keep posting that Victor Wenbayama has been drafted as the first pick. Obviously he probably will be, but it hasn't happened yet. I've already done two reverts. The page could use some kind of lock on it or something.

Thanks. KatoKungLee (talk) 13:50, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

looks like it's been handled now. —Bagumba (talk) 23:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

List of shortest players in National Basketball Association history

Can someone explain why Tyler Ulis is mentioned in the WP:LEAD of List of shortest players in National Basketball Association history, but not included in the list.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:40, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@FZeroHayden, Bossanoven, Martin tamb, Natg 19, Saizo7, TheMadProofreader, Davemband, X96lee15, Chrishmt0423, and 爨龘龘: Pinging the leading editors of the page--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 12:16, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

No idea, I presume this list just needs to be updated. But I don't know where it was originally sourced from, and how this list came to be. Natg 19 (talk) 16:51, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I would add him myself, but I see his height referenced in the PD between 5'6" and 5'8". I don'd know what system is being used in the article to assert height claims. The original editors should add him.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 03:13, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

What do you mean by PD? His last listed height in the NBA seems to have been 5'10". In college, he seems to have been listed at 5'9". For Wikipedia purposes, shouldn't we take his last listed height, which is still visible in his NBA.com profile? (Although it is possible that the NBA was inconsistent over the years.) Zagalejo (talk) 14:19, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

PD is public domain. I have no problem with him being excluded if his NBA height is 5'10". However, he should be removed from the LEAD or he should be footnoted if included.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:08, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

I removed that sentence. Zagalejo (talk) 05:32, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

The SB Nation article about the jump ball does not seem to be a particularly strong source to begin with. As the author says, there's no proof that that was the shortest combination for a jump ball. Zagalejo (talk) 14:40, 17 June 2023 (UTC)

Looming NBA Free Agency Clarification

The annual edit/revert season is among us and with free agency starting at 6:00pm EST tonight, I thought I'd come hear to clear up the logistics for angsty editors (like myself...).

Tonight, and over the next week, we should see many very reliable, yet not official, reports of players "planning to" and "have agreed to" free agency deals. This will of course also happen with trades usually being broken by Adrian Wojnarowski and Shams Charania. These reports are very reliable, and the wording is very key in determining the likelihood of the scenario. While it is very likely that the moves stated clearly and confidently by these high level reporters are much more likely to come to fruition than not, we have seen scenarios where deals have fallen through due to medical concerns, not making a specific deadline, or even just a change of decision during moratorium.

With this prefaced, if we have a hard time updating the lead and info-box of players during this time, I think it is important to note this information in the Professional Career sections of a players timeline while specifically mentioning that it was "widely reported" or something along those lines. I feel that until is officially announced, the timeline should be updated with the new team and information while the info-box and lead could remain the same. RichieConant34 (talk) 15:47, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Why? Your recent edits were reverted by others at Rudy Gay and John Collins. I don't see that anything has changed since your last proposal. WP:RSBREAKING is the relevant guideline.—Bagumba (talk) 17:24, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Edits are reverted all the time, everyone loves to revert edits to style the writing in their way or because they don't believe its necessary, etc.

I think having that information on a player's page is important because even on the off chance that something changes or falls through, the report circulated and it is factual to say that it was heavily "reported". Lets take the Malcolm Brogdon trade to the Clippers that didn't end up happening, for example; I could argue that a snippet about this could be placed in his timeline as he was very close to being traded to the Clippers on multiple reports (including officially by the Teams president).

Would it be more acceptable if you just put this information at the bottom of the player's current teams timeline? I am, and will always be confused about the outdated edit/revert battles we deal with. People obviously want to share and update this info, and even if its not technically official, I think it deserves mentioning on the page whether or not its in the infobox, the lead, or just a mention in the timeline. RichieConant34 (talk) 17:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Bagumba — Looking back a few years, I believe you sort of mentioned what I'm getting at in a discussion here. RichieConant34 (talk) 18:10, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Edits are reverted all the time...: I don't recall seeing an edit about a transaction sourced to a team official speaking on the record being reverted.—Bagumba (talk) 18:07, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Bagumba—The Celtics and Brad Stevens had a press conference where they were asked about the initial trade of Malcolm Brogdon where he was supposed to go to the Clippers and how that falling through created the pivot to trading Smart and including Memphis in the deal instead of LAC. It's something that a big fan of the NBA (I'm not sure if you are or not) would find very interesting and noteworthy to remember in years past. Reminds me of how Ray Allen was traded by to the Grizzlies many years ago but that trade ended up falling through, but led to his unfaithfulness to the Celtics as described in his book (and heavily reported on). RichieConant34 (talk) 18:17, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

If he said it at a press conference, at least that's a named person that it can be attributed to. Far from an unnamed "league source". —Bagumba (talk) 18:41, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Bagumba — You have been a responder to most of my messages in the past, and I know we disagree on this, but I truly am just trying to figure out a middle ground so we don't have instances of some pages having updated infoboxes and leads, while others are stuck in revert wars, and we continue having this circling discussions. I do believe you mentioned something in a previous thread here which sort of resembles the idea of adding the information in the professional timeline. I am beginning to understand the rules of the online encyclopedia, but I believe there is a big disconnect when it comes to trying to add relevant information, like a reported trade or signing, and having someone that may not have read these talk discussions that just reverts them without much thought with the idea that "oh nope, not official must be reverted immediately". RichieConant34 (talk) 19:30, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Sourcing undrafted players

At 2012 NBA draft, the section of undrafted players was deleted. I restored it and tagged it for references, as it's a pretty standard section. However, is there an easy way to source it without going one-by-one and proving they were draft eligible that year? —Bagumba (talk) 11:37, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

I forgot to reply here, but I added sources the best way I could think of. Ended up adding one list of undrafted players to cover them all and then added their individual basketball reference pages to show that they played in the NBA at some point. -- ZooBlazer^talk 18:34, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Player positions (why special credence to basketball-reference?)

Ht ReaganHoang10 for pointing me to WP:NBAPOSITION, which refers to this poll as to why "player's position(s) is generally listed based on the listings at NBA.com and basketball-reference.com". The poll doesn't explain why we give preferential treatment to a random subscription-based stats website as compared to, say, ESPN.com or CBS Sports, when it comes to player position listings. Why merge information like this from multiple different sources anyways? We don't do the same with WP:NBAHEIGHT and WP:NBAWEIGHT, so why with positions? Can someone provide a rational? --bender235 (talk) 20:20, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

IDK. Ask the guy who came up with the rules ReaganHoang10 (talk) 20:25, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Which is precisely why I am asking here. --bender235 (talk) 20:34, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

There's no "guy" (WP:OWN), there was multiple people in that discussion. —Bagumba (talk) 13:47, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

basketball-reference does not require a subscription. It doesn't seem exactly "random", when its oft-cited. As for why we "merge information like this from multiple different sources anyways", it seems that some editors want more detail than the generic "F" and "G" that NBA.com lists, so b-r.com become the go-to for specifics like Sf/PF, PG/SG. Feel free to suggest new proposals (WP:CCC). —Bagumba (talk) 13:54, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think basketball-reference is more widely known than, say, ESPN.com or CBS Sports. But regardless, I don't understand the "let's pick and choose" exception for a player's position when there is no such exception for height and weight. The latter being in place for good reason, to avoid constant back-and-forth edits over conflicting measurements. The same, in my opinion, should be true for positions: let's just go with what NBA.com lists. --bender235 (talk) 20:46, 9 July 2023 (UTC)

Nobody will argue that ESPN measures players and is a better source than the team. On the other hand, NBA teams do not list players' positions on a game-to-game basis. I get your point on occasional squabbling; I'll wait to see what others say. —Bagumba (talk) 01:27, 10 July 2023 (UTC)

Positions in basketball tend to be flexible, so I think it's fair to allow some leeway for positions. (As a practical matter, it's also hard to effectively display multiple heights/weights in an infobox.)

One of the benefits of basketball-reference is that their links are stable, whereas ESPN has been known to move their player profiles around, breaking links. Zagalejo (talk) 13:54, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Irrespective of what makes basketball-reference a good site, or which other site might be better, my main question remains why for positions we are supposed to "merge" information from two different sources, whereas for heights and weights we decidedly do not? If basketball-reference is so much better, let's make it the only source that informs our player infoboxes (and maybe use it for height and weight, too, while we're at it). Just let's not have this hodgepodge situation of pooling information from multiple sources. --bender235 (talk) 16:33, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia generally does consider multiple sources and uses WP:NPOV to present them. There was an editorial decision made to make an exception for heights and weights of NBA players. —Bagumba (talk) 17:52, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

If NPOV applies, then why limit it to NBA.com and basketball-reference? Why not report "LeBron James, position: PG/SG/SF/PF/C" in case we find five or more WP:RS that each report a different position? I'm being devil's advocate here, because clearly this is just asking for chaotic edit-warring. --bender235 (talk) 23:20, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

I think people have applied WP:WEIGHT, not just sources that mention it in passing. IIRC, James' bio never listed him as PG, even in 2019–20, when he was the Lakers PG on offense when they won the title. Main agaument I think was that the Lakers listed him at F.—Bagumba (talk) 16:31, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

There simply isn't that much we can do with multiple heights/weights. I wish we did have more flexibility, because the NBA's own listed heights/weights can be inconsistent. At best, we can have a situation like the Manute Bol article, where one height appears in the infobox and further information is available in a footnote. Zagalejo (talk) 18:22, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, as stated on Template:College athlete recruit end, we use average height and weight in case several recruiting websites report conflicting measurements. I'm not advocating this for NBA player infoboxes (in fact, I'm in favor of the opposite, i.e. a single source), I'm just saying there's alternative ways. --bender235 (talk) 23:20, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

If you have a compelling argument to change, feel free to propose it. —Bagumba (talk) 16:34, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@Bagumba: the argument is and always was that we use NBA.com, period. For height, weight, and for position. No averaging, no merging with information from selected secondary sources, no nothing. Just NBA.com. --bender235 (talk) 16:29, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

NBA only lists generic guard and forward positions; it's less informative to remove specific info like SG/PG and SF/PF that basketball-reference provides. —Bagumba (talk) 07:46, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

However, what hasn't been discussed fully is what if team/NBA.com lists someone only at G, but b-r.com says "SG/SF". I think there might be some that would say don't list the extra position. Gary Payton II (SF) and Kevon Looney (C) are examples where NBA.com does not list the position. —Bagumba (talk) 03:54, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Hey, before I say this, I'm going to acknowledge that RealGM has been deemed a source that is not reliable, so I understand that this might not be taken seriously. However, two things that I've found on the site that are very reliable are its transaction log (most complete of any I've seen, generally more complete than the official log), and its positions. Not to say that that is how I determine positions when editing, but when I personally want the best representation of a players position, RealGM often gives the most accurate picture, meaning this: You can go to a players' page, select Game Logs, select All Leagues and All Seasons and sort by position, and you're given a usually pretty accurate breakdown of how much a player has played each position in their career, that, while not perfect, is often one that is more accurate than both NBA.com and Basketball Reference. Again, I understand that it's not regarded as a reliable source and that this won't be taken seriously, but I just wanted to throw this out as a very slight suggestion. Feel free to disregard :) JAX4981 (talk) 19:26, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

The limitation of the positions at RealGM game logs is that it only lists one position per game, when many players actually play multiple positions in a game. —Bagumba (talk) 01:23, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Right, that makes sense, I suppose that my thinking was that it just might be more accurate than the generic positions at nba.com or the listed positions at bball ref. which often don't align with their own positional breakdown under the play-by-play section, which itself is pretty unreliable. Thanks for responding :) JAX4981 (talk) 05:21, 28 July 2023 (UTC)

Player position order

FYI

There is a related discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball § Positional order in infobox —Bagumba (talk) 05:02, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Players with 3 or more positions

FYI

There is a discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball § New consensus request regarding WP:NBAPOSITION and how to list players who play 3+ positions.—Bagumba (talk) 08:00, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Is Carlik Jones really of South Sudanese descent?

Our Carlik Jones article mentions it, and some major sources mention it in passing (e.g., [11]), but more substantial articles about his life (like this) don't say anything like that. Zagalejo (talk) 17:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

[12] says he's naturalized and is of South Sudanese origins. ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 17:19, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't see anything that goes into specifics, such as whether he is a descendant from his paternal or maternal side, or what generation immigrated over to the US, etc., if that is what you are referring to.—Bagumba (talk) 17:47, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah, none of the sources elaborate on the fact, which makes me wonder if reporters are misinterpreting something or repeating an error. The Louisville media guide names his parents and brother, but doesn't mention South Sudanese heritage anywhere. Based on the history of Sudanese immigration to the US, it seems unlikely that he'd have a Sudanese grandparent (but who knows). Zagalejo (talk) 18:36, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

For the record, there's video of his parents talking to him here. I know Brian Windhorst says Jones was "was born in Cincinnati to Sudanese parents," but... really? None of the prior information about Jones gives any indication that he grew up in an immigrant household. Zagalejo (talk) 19:10, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

This isnt as straightforward as having conflicting sources. Either sources say nothing on this, or they mention it in passing. If someone felt strongly and wanted to be strict and remove it, pending more specifics, I wouldn't object. It's pretty clear he qualified for the team as a naturalized player. He might have family ties, but I think FIBA requires that you get a passport by 16 to be exempt from counting as a naturalized player on the roster.—Bagumba (talk) 19:18, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I removed the mention from the article (although I forgot to log in). Zagalejo (talk) 14:24, 4 September 2023 (UTC)

NBA "Icon" and "Global" logos

Hey guys, real quick question here: what are the current WP standards for choosing between "Icon" or "Global" NBA logos for the WP team infobox pages? Why do teams like the Cleveland Cavaliers, Denver Nuggets, Houston Rockets and Utah Jazz have the "Icon" version in their infobox while mostly everyone else has "Global"? Most of these teams which the exception of the Boston Celtics, Charlotte Hornets and New York Knicks now use "Icon" logos as their primary logo now, mostly excluding full team name text. If the NBA website and the respective NBA team site both predominately use the "Icon" version of their logo, is that a valid enough reason to move any "Global" logos to "Icon" now? GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 19:22, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

I forgot to notate that the Detroit Pistons, Los Angeles Lakers and Sacramento Kings also use their Global as their Icon logos during my first section. Also, for visual reference regarding this discussion Here's all the "Icon" team logos being used on the official NBA website. You can also click on each team's personal website and notice almost all of them predominantly use their Icon variants now. It seems the NBA wanted to better align themselves with other major sports leagues teams logos over the past half decade by phasing out primary team logos with full-body team name text.--GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 21:33, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

My goal with the discussion here is simply to establish a reasoning basis for why some Icon logos are being used on team pages while others are not. We could simply use all Globals, but personally I feel like that would be the wrong decision here considering the evidence provided. If the both the NBA website and team site's main page header use the Icon variant, wouldn't that be a clear and cut basis to change the logo to that variant without contest? e.i. websites Pelicans, Trail Blazers, Bucks, Hawks— Preceding unsigned comment added by GalaxyFighter55 (talk • contribs) 21:42, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Dumb question: What is the technical distinction between an "icon" and a "global" logo? —Bagumba (talk) 07:33, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

@Bagumba: They are basically label terms that the NBA uses for the primary logos used by each NBA team. All but 6 teams I have mentioned above have a different variant of Icon and Global logos, with the later now appearing to be more focused on usage outside North America in recent NBA seasons. Here's some official NBA spreadsheet examples: UTA LAC SAS ATL IND PHI. As implied above, I think there is the potential for a consensus discussion regarding whether or not we should use the primary Icon logos for all NBA team info boxes, because there seems to be some inconsistency and pick-and-choose decisions from half a decade ago instead of following any cohesive set of rules regarding them.--GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 07:56, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

So "global" seems to mean with team name in English (which doesn't seem very "global" for non-English speakers haha). I guess choices could be 1) always use icon 2) always use global 3) defer to whatever team prominently brands on their website...—Bagumba (talk) 08:05, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

There's a strong case to be made with options 1) and 3) because it's pretty clear to me the NBA has shifted away from and possibly encouraged its teams from using any predominately text-based logos in recent years to better align themselves with sports teams from other major leagues. The commonly used primary logos, which would be Icon, is almost always used nowadays by the league for promotional purposes. I barely see the Global ones nowadays outside of anything the teams would want to come across as professional-looking (e.i. important social media notes or seasonal infobooks) with of course the exception of those 6 teams who chose to retain their Global logos for Icon.--GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 08:17, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

I remember that the Cleveland Cavaliers, Denver Nuggets and Utah Jazz are the only teams that specifically stated that "primary icon" logo is their main logo. Meanwhile, other teams use "global logo" as their main logo (based on their press releases). If I remember this correctly, I asked about the same thing some years ago, but I cannot find that discussion in the WT:NBA archives (maybe such discussion took place somewhere else). – sbaio 08:30, 7 July 2023 (UTC)

If you can find it, that'd be much appreciated. That being said, I still think the idea has become outdated. We should go by what each team most commonly uses as their primary logo based on visual promotional evidence from league promotions, official websites and on-court branding, not by what they each formally regard them as.--GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 03:50, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

To me personally, I believe if the NBA team in question uses their Icon variant on their primary court design, official team website, and if the league always promotes their games with that variant, then that should bypass them explicitly stating (or not) which one is the logo. It would be a similar situation to WP:COMMONNAME except with logos.--GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 03:58, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

Cleveland Cavaliers – source (discussion about that at Talk:Cleveland Cavaliers#New Logos), Denver Nuggets – source, source, source, 2022–23 media guide (there was also another source, but it no longer works), Utah Jazz – I cannot find the source anymore, but the team announced it during their last uniform change. I remembered that the Houston Rockets also said that the "R" logo is their main logo, but the sources from the team do not work anymore. – sbaio 08:08, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

Looks like the Pelicans updated their reproduction and usage guideline sheet so I updated the colors accordingly. The "global logo" is not yet available anywhere, but the "primary icon" is. – sbaio 09:51, 12 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sbaio: I propose we start a user consensus and let everyone decide from one of multiple options [ 1) Stay as is based on explicated citations 2) Switch to all-icon 3) Switch to icons only if the NBA and team websites both share the same logo. 4) Switch to all-global (although, this one is unlikely to pass)]. This is the best way to resolve this issue we face now regarding the NBA logos. Is this ok with you?--GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 22:57, 13 July 2023 (UTC)

That will be tricky, because some teams are inconsistent themselves. They show one logo in their website but use a different logo in their press releases. One of the examples are the Boston Celtics. – sbaio 13:33, 15 July 2023 (UTC)

@Sbaio: We simply would need to use the logo both and team and league use the most to identify themselves as; For the Boston Celtics that'd still be the logo that is currently used already on its article. Like I already mentioned earlier, we would treat each team in the same method we would with WP:COMMONNAME where the exact primary logo most in-use gets highest priority. This would already clear hurdles for a large majority of NBA teams, and any remaining teams we have left that we don't know what to do with based on the evidence would remain as is until a consensus can be reached. The only team I know of so far would be the San Antonio Spurs.--GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 01:52, 16 July 2023 (UTC)

Alright, with the NBA season approaching I'm going to officially start a consensus discussion regarding this issue. A brief rundown of this talk: the NBA and most and its teams now commonly use the primary Icon to identify their brand now. A few of these teams previously mentioned these Icons are their primary (e.i. Houston, Denver, Utah), but it seems the entire league has silently shifted to regard the Icon logos as primary and now it appears to treat the Global ones as secondary logos to be used outside North America. The proposal I make today is based on the above discussion. Additionally, and in somewhat related news this past 48 hours, the NFL's Chicago Bears have shifted from the C logo to their Bears head logo as their primary logo. ESPN and the NFL's official websites responded promptly and accordingly. In my opinion, this further insinuates that these are the absolute primary NBA team logos that should be used here on Wikipedia, the "Icon" brand. With this in mind, I present a few proposals:

• Choice A: Stay with the method already in place for explicitly stated citations.
• Choice B: Switch to all-Icon, which the NBA, ESPN and most team website headers seem to be in agreement with.
• Choice C: Switch to Icons only if the NBA, ESPN and team website headers all share the same logo.
• Choice D: Switch to all-Global; regardless of what was present in this discussion. It should be noted, as pointed out by Sbaio below, that Global logos show up on IP addresses located outside North America.

Comment. I must note that the logos shown at NBA.com/teams are geolocked (I live in Europe). The logos shown there are "global logos" when I connect from my home computer, while "icon logos" are shown when I connect from my work computer through VPN. This is not the first time that I see this thing happen when going to North American websites. – sbaio 09:17, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so it's been over a month and nobody really chimed in on what we should do nor did anybody vote on any options I listed. Now what? If we stay as is, we still have a looming problem over our heads going forward.--GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 02:28, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

A case of WP:DEADHORSE. – sbaio 03:42, 23 September 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a preference and a rationale?—Bagumba (talk) 13:55, 23 September 2023 (UTC)