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Error in Wikipedia article on Kim Su-Deok

Greetings. This is my first time participating in the Wikipedia community, so forgive any mistakes or misunderstanding in how to proceed. My wife's father is Jong Soung Kimm, who was born in Seoul in 1935. He is an architect of some renown (e.g., designed the Seoul Hilton). His paternal grandfather was Baron Kim Sa-Jun. His father was the third of three children had by Kim Sa-Jun and his wife. The oldest of these three children was Kim Su-Deok. But, the wikipedia article on Kim Su-Deok mistakenly says that she was the only child of Kim Sa-Jun and Lady Hwang (rather than the oldest of three children). I don't want to edit the page directly, and prefer to leave that to someone who's already active in maintaining the page. I'm happy to connect someone with my father in law, who has many interesting stories about the family. He recalls visiting his aunt (Kim Su-Deok) in the prince's palace, as a child. His father, the 3rd of the three children, started university in London, but returned to Seoul upon his father Kim Sa-Jun's death. After some travel with Prince Yi Kang, and a period in California, he returned again to Seoul. After WW2, he was made president of the Korean Red Cross, roughly 4 decades after his sister's husband Prince Yi Kang had been head of the Korean Red Cross in the early 1900s. Shortly after North Korea invaded Seoul in 1950, he was taken prisoner by the North Koreans, while escorting his then 9-year-old daughter (my father-in-law's sister) to a more-safe farm about 30 miles outside Seoul, and was never seen again. Put another way, Kim Su-Deok's youngest brother (and Kim Sa-Jun's youngest son) was disappeared by the North Koreans. Anyone with an interest in this, reply and let me know how to be in touch. Siegfried Proust (talk) 17:49, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Interesting, thank you for sharing.

I'm not seeing an article for him in English, is this for the Polish Wikipedia? This WikiProject is for the English Wikipedia on Korea-related topics. I encourage you to post on the talk page on whichever version of the article you're interested in.

For your understanding, generally speaking, on Wikipedia the bare minimum type of source required is a primary source (recorded somewhere, either written in a respectable newspaper or even published by a well-reputed youtube channel). See WP:RELIABLE. Preferred are written tertiary sources, usually either journalistic pieces or peer reviewed publications.

While I believe you're very likely to be correct, a direct interview from one of us is unlikely to be sufficient for inclusion as far as I know. toobigtokale (talk) 21:09, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Although at a quick glance it looks un-cited anyway. You can probably just edit it without citing anything to be honest, as long as you're not adding a lot of information (a paragraph at most). It's not technically encouraged and other people are free to delete your work so just be aware. toobigtokale (talk) 21:14, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

The English-language article on Kim Su-deok is at: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Su-deok. I may just edit it directly. I think my father-in-law is as good a source as one can get, as relates to the existence of his father. :) Siegfried Proust (talk) 22:21, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Uh-uh. Please read about WP:V, WP:SPS and WP:OR. Wikipedia does not allow using information from one's family members, not unless they have been independently published and verified. This is unfortunately not a good practice. Bottom line: every fact needs to be sourced, via a footnote, to a reliable, independent source. Otherwise it may be removed as unverifiable. Up to an including the fact that we cannot verify that you are who you say you are - how can we know that you are not adding a hoax? There is WP:AGF, and we trust that you mean well, but if we cannot verify the information you add we will have to remove it. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:11, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

While you're correct, given that Korea-related articles are often in such a poor state and missing so much info, I would still sleep comfortably at night knowing that a few tidbits that are probably true are being added on an otherwise uncommonly edited and viewed article. If it was like an entire article or if the article was heavily trafficked or thoroughly curated I would be pickier.

At the very least, I think we should keep it with a citation needed on it. toobigtokale (talk) 04:31, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

toobigtokale, Piotrus is, as you say, correct. Please read and digest Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. If you'd like articles to be augmented with "tidbits that are probably true" regardless of their verifiability, you're welcome to fork Wikipedia for just this purpose. -- Hoary (talk) 04:47, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Please dial down the condescension a bit. I've seen and read the essay before, and understand it. I've already acknowledged I'm slightly in the wrong, but I just don't enjoy punishing a person's edits when they asked us here politely and made an effectively harmless edit in the grand scheme of things. Millions of worse, large, harmful edits go unnoticed (I know, because I'm also on the front lines cleaning them up). I'm just not all that bothered by this, which is part of why I'd never make the cut to be an admin 😅.

Since I've acknowledged that I'm probably in the wrong, I encourage others to respond to @Siegfried Proust's edit as they see fit. toobigtokale (talk) 05:19, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

It is really a sad dead horse problem. So many folks have been discouraged for contributing to Wikipedia because they are either unable or unwilling to reference their edits, and it is quite unfortunate when those folks are good faithed and "correct". I have talked to quite a few academics who cannot understand why their edits were reverted ("but I am the world's foremost expert on Foo, why should I need to cite anything, I wrote similar stuff for Academic Encyclopedia of Foo and Journal of Foo and they accepted my words without the need for footnotes"). Ditto for the case here. But in the end, Hoary is right to link VNT essay. We can assume good faith, but we have to verify that information is true. And that policy also is needed to make sure that we don't AGF hoaxse, slander, or jokes. Trust me, I am Trump's wife and I know he is an alien from the 9th dimension... _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:04, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

PS. The reason I am not reverting this is because it replaced one unreferenced, unverified claim with another. How are we supposed to know which version is correct? Both fail V, and in theory, most information in that article should be removed, but at the same time, we all know that nobody cares because it is probably mostly correct. That's why the article has maintenance templates and low assessment category, shrug. Maybe our newcomer will try to improve it. Or maybe they won't and the article will wait for years or decades to reach a higher quality level. Shrug. Millions of articles need fixes, millions need to be written, and we have only few thousand active volunteers... that's wiki life for you (us). _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:08, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Piotrus, on waiting for years or decades, here are just two I've recently encountered: (i) eight-year-old article, mostly not referenced at all, but to some degree referenced to material by the subject's children; (ii) conspicuous attempt at some sort of joke, added by witless IP fifteen years earlier. (See this comment if wondering.) -- Hoary (talk) 07:44, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

your best bet would be to have (legitimate) articles published off Wikipedia first on third-party, independent sources. Someone will then pick it up from there. – robertsky (talk) 09:38, 26 December 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Bombardment of Yeonpyeong#Requested move 6 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Bombardment of Yeonpyeong#Requested move 6 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 16:33, 6 January 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:E (Epik High album)#Requested move 10 January 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:E (Epik High album)#Requested move 10 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces (talk) 06:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Displaying old Korean text?

I just wrote this article: Letter to Lee Eung-tae. Is there some way to get the old Korean lettering to display in blocks properly? I think maybe there's some text encoding stuff at play that I don't understand. For example, Hunminjeongeum has old Korean text that shows up as boxes with x's in them on my Mac. Maybe that's the lettering in blocks that I need, but I wouldn't know where to begin in 1. getting that to show up on my Mac, and 2. how to translate the stilted lettering I have into blocks. toobigtokale (talk) 14:16, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Ah darn, I just got back to my Windows PC. It displays fine on Windows; it was a Mac thing. toobigtokale (talk) 00:00, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Most important articles related to Korea?

WikiProject Vital is looking for more folks to opine on what are the most important articles on Wikipedia and at V5 is trying to create a corpus of 50k most important topics. Perhaps you'd be interested in discussions such as Wikipedia_talk:Vital_articles/Level/5/History_and_geography#North_Korean_cities and similar. Cheers, _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Seoul

This article has been in need of a fix up for a long time. Is someone willing to step up and work on it? toobigtokale (talk) 11:45, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Seoul municipal gov't should hire a Wikipedian-in-residence to deal with this and related. I know, wishful thinking here. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:44, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Queen Jeongseong

Can one, or some, of you have a look at this article and the recent history? I have no idea what's going on or why the stakes seem to be so high--but in my experience article improvement is the best way to prevent disruption. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

@Drmies Not sure what is going there either, but I've added the obvious {{morefootnotes}} _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:46, 19 January 2024 (UTC)