Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology/Archive 2020

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American City Flags Project

I am starting a mini project to improve American City Flag articles. If anyone would be interested in helping that would be cool. --Mikeduke324 (talk) 00:17, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

@Mikeduke324: I'm working on a few cities in the Pacific Northwest, having already brought two to GA (Spokane and Provo). Feel free to use those two articles as examples/standards. SounderBruce 00:53, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

Request

Hello WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology!

I wanted to request a flag, however I don't know really where to ask, do you know where I could go ?

Thanks in advance ! CocoricoPolynesien (talk) 18:44, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Blazons of Baronets

Also applicable to Peerage and Baronetage.

Editions of Burke's and Debrett's up to 1959 can be found online. Only a few dozen baronetcies were created from 1960 onwards. I have added all blazons for extant baronetcies created after 1959 from Debrett's Peerage 2000, though a couple were apparently non-armigerous. That means all extant baronetcies have blazons available for their associated arms. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 19:17, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Armorial of Lord High Chancellors of Great Britain

Another project that might interest you. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 22:30, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Proposed inclusion criteria for List of tartans

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Talk:List of tartans#Inclusion criteria, a proposal for a three-point list of inclusion criteria. There are at least 7000 tartans and we cannot account for them all in a single article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  20:44, 13 March 2020 (UTC)

We don't seem to have any coverage of the Lyon Court Book

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

I brought this up at Talk:Court of the Lord Lyon#The Lyon Court Book, though maybe this is worth a stand-alone article, like Public Register of All Arms and Bearings in Scotland?  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  04:04, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Seals or Emblems

Good Morrow, should it be Category:Indian state seals or Category:Indian state emblems. Almost all the articles start with "Emblem of..." Thanks in advance. --Titodutta (talk) 15:00, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

A question

Hello, I was hoping someone here could help me with a question. I've put up an article at FAC (Lord Goff of Chieveley, and a helpful Wikipedian has created a coat of arms. I have a source for the arms, crest and motto, but I don't have something which would verify that the image of coat of arms created is correct. Would anyone know how I could find a source for this, or how I could back it up? I'd be very appreciative. Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 14:57, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Kohlrabi Pickle: The source given for the blazon, or written description, is Skey, William (1846). The Heraldic Calendar: A List of the Nobility and Gentry Whose Arms are Registered, and Pedigrees Recorded in the Herald's Office in Ireland. University of Oxford. p. 26.. Assuming that this source is correct, and that the blazon on the page is correct, the image follows the written description and is as such heraldically correct. Di (they-them) (talk) 22:45, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Fantastic! Thank you very much, Di (they-them). Kohlrabi Pickle (talk) 01:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Where does the College of Arms publish its letters patent?

Am I missing something obvious, or is it difficult to find blazons for arms newly granted by the College of Arms? Their most recent newsletter (January 2020) lists "a very small selection" of recent grants, but the blazons are not given, let alone depictions for the vast majority listed there. And it isn't even a comprehensive list. They do have a reference number against each of the listings, but it is unclear where you look these up to find the grant. An example would be the newly upgraded Hartpury University, which has reference 182/226. The university's own website appears to have no reference to its arms either, so they might as well not exist as far as potential public knowledge of them goes, even though they were presumably issued under letters patent, i.e. open! This is not intended as a gripe about the College of Arms but a question about sources for building Wikipedia. Where are we getting our blazons from if letters patent are in effect private documents? Beorhtwulf (talk) 12:17, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think you are missing anything: I don't believe the College does systematically "publish" its grants. The official definitive records are the Grant Books kept at the College, which I assume the reference numbers relate to: my understanding is that these are technically "publicly accessible", but probably only through a formal approach and payment of a fee. The physical grant (the letters patent) and the "intellectual property" in the arms pass to the client. As much of the College's raison d'être depends on it ingratiating itself with the great and the good (likewise, I'm not griping: that's just the way it is), I think there's an informal understanding that it's up to the client to choose how far and in what ways the grant is publicised. Many blazons do end up in standard reference works (Who's Who, Debrett's), or on institutional websites, but there's no comprehensive and immediately accessible register. With regard to Hartpury University, you may already have discovered this rendition. The artist, Quentin Peacock, claims to have worked from the blazon (though he doesn't give it) – but he also appears to have connections in the College. GrindtXX (talk) 17:23, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply: all useful information, and I hadn't seen that or any version of the Hartpury arms. That's unfortunate about the College of Arms, as their practice does seem to run against the idea of letters patent. Open repositories of blazons granted by the world's heraldic authorities would be an immensely useful resource for anyone interested in heraldry. Beorhtwulf (talk) 20:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Multiple page moves/copies without prior discussion

@Ssolbergj seems to have done a fairly massive amount of transfers/copies between pages Escutcheon (heraldry), Coat of Arms, Blazon, escutcheon and Heraldry without appropriate prior planning, discussion and consensus and possibly without appropriate attribution. Can project members please give scrutiny to this and ensure the results are satisfactory. If these needs to be reverted then it is best they are done quickly. If I have missed a prior discussion then I apologise. Thankyou.Djm-leighpark (talk) 22:00, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi. When text has been moved I’ve added a comment on where it’s taken from. The edits in question were planned, and made in order to fix overlapping/duclicated content and illogical hierarcy of topics between the articles heraldry/coat of arms/achievements. - Ssolbergj (talk) 22:26, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

With regards to moves/copies Template:Copying within Wikipedia refers to the editting guideline Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia and the information pages Wikipedia:Splitting and Wikipedia:Merging. You will observe your editing summary does not fully comply with the suggestion of the editing guideline; which may or may not be a problem. If they were planned it perhaps would have been good practice to have opened a discussion first somewhere ... if anyone finds anything they disagree with; then everything needs to be backed out. We've been here before as can be seen from September 2019 including indications from Diannaa of required/best practice techniques for edit summaries. Talk:Coat of arms claims to be a Level 5 top importance article and a good article nominee; albeit well failed. The overall effect of your changes may or may not be a vast improvement; and as your changes have been planned a discussion or at least a indication here of the plan; start and when completed would have been reasonable.Djm-leighpark (talk) 23:13, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Can an independent person confirm the changes appear beneficial? Thankyou. 23:13, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

I've seen some of the many edits and overall it seems unhelpful. The template and article was merged from many others, creating a huge and difficult-to-navigate mess. The articles are separated already and should be kept that way unless there is a consensus to merge. Di (they-them) (talk) 22:18, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately no one from project has made any comment whatsoever, which is fairly disappointing. I have therefore taken a look myself. My overall impression was the WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology was a mess; and to a large extent is still a mess; and the lead sections not necessarily the best for most young readers to read and navigate. While the national heraldry previously on the coat of arms article may have been incorrect it made a good looking article and is now difficult in my opinion to navigate to. I sbserve it is now on National heraldic styles where it seems to have been copied to initially with on attribution. I am on the cusp of reverting this myself; but I am minded the edits are in totality possibly slightly beneficial and pragmatically that may be an unwise course. I walk away from this somewhat of the opinion the WikiProject Heraldry and vexillology project is unfir for purpose. Thankyou.Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:31, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Oppose merger; two different topics, as the achievement article makes clear. --Orange Mike | Talk 00:00, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not involved in this WikiProject, so I won't !vote on anything at the moment, but I'd like to suggest the alternative of moving most of the content of Heraldry§Heraldic achievement (which seems overloaded) to Achievement (heraldry) (which is looking pretty stubby at the moment). That might achieve whatever the goal is. I already added a "main article" hatnote to that section of the former article, before I noticed that the latter article was so short, and the tag on the latter article suggesting that Coat of arms be merged into it (on which I don't really have an opinion). Maybe this should be a separate discussion, though. ← PointyOintment ❬t & c❭  19:58, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Is there a place where you can request a Coat of Arms image to be made?

I have been working on the articles for the Paleologus of Pesaro family for some time and one of the large caveats of their article is that while we do know their Coat of Arms, the best image we have of it thus far is the one I've included to the right. It's cropped from the tombstone of one of the more prolific members of the family.

Since I am not skilled enough myself, I was wondering if there exists some place where I could post a request and someone else (if interested) could create a cleaner-looking version with colors and whatnot. In case that place would be this talk page (I can see a somewhat similar request from April) I'll just lay out some info here. There is cited info on what the colors probably were in the article on Theodore Paleologus; it is probable that the two background "fields" (split in the middle) were red and white for instance. For shades for the eagle and the red part of the background, the CoA of the family's potential parent family could serve as inspiration. The small crescent on the bottom should probably be left out since it is likely a mistake by whoever designed the tombstone. Ichthyovenator (talk) 14:52, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

That crescent is certainly not "a mistake", but rather meaningful for the person whose arms are displayed. See Difference (heraldry). --Orange Mike | Talk 16:45, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes I'm aware what it means in terms of heraldry but the person whose tombstone this is from is the only known son of their father. I am also not sure if the crescent would apply if the intention is to produce a CoA for the entire family. Ichthyovenator (talk) 16:55, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Update: no need for anyone to jump on this; I created a clean CoA image with colors myself. Ichthyovenator (talk) 20:15, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

User:evadb

I've been asked to try to get into contact with User:evadb, who has not been active here recently. This is an enquiry in connection with File:Stowe Armorial.jpg, a featured picture, on behalf of a heraldry expert.

I tried the sidebar email link, without result, a few weeks ago. If anyone here has contact information, please use the email link on my own user page to pass it on. Charles Matthews (talk) 10:32, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Afd of FOTW

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Flags of the World (website) may be of interest to members of this wikiproject. Zoozaz1 (talk) 17:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Organisation of heraldry in Ireland prior to Irish Republic — missing

Trying to find information about the Irish Heralds and Pursuivants of Arms of the College prior to the Irish Republic.

I can see a list of the college at https://www.thepeerage.com/index_herald.htm and there are numbers of the Irish that have no mention in Wikipedia. I don't find much coverage in the broader web as most focus on the now, not on the history. The Irish CHO focuses on the republic times.

So apart from the role of King of Arms we have a hole in the history of that Irish part of the college and arms roles prior to the Irish Republic. Not even sure of the decent resources, though I can see references to roles in an article like s:Thom's Irish Who's Who/O'Grady, Guillamore, and trying to add that data into Wikipedia and Wikidata is difficult without the underlying structure. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:33, 8 September 2020 (UTC)

Flag of Serbia (1281)

Hello everyone. :) I hope you're doing well. There is a long debate on the article about Serbian flag. The version uploaded by Wikipedian in 2007 is disputable, and in the meantime it has been corrected. It is known that there is no credible reconstruction of this flag, only a written record of the color scheme. Almost the same version and explanation can be seen on the Flags of the World website posted by Tomislav Todorović, one of the most prominent editors, in 2006. He described that the version could be seen in the Serbian media and medieval-themed events. It is really often used to represent the medieval Serbian flag. For examples: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. This is not the only version of disputed reconstruction that exists ([8] and [9]: 0:54 and 0:56). Moreover, one of the mainstream media explained that it is used in medieval-themed events, but that the reliability of this version is disputed.

My idea is to add a image of the flag to the article (it has been in the article for years) with the explanation that that this horizontal version is used in Serbia (it can be seen in media and some events), but that it is not reliable reconstruction. We cannot ignore the fact that something appears in the mainstream media, which confirms that it is notable, but the origin and authenticity need to be explained. Many editors oppose it, arguing that it is a WP:OR. Of course, it should be borne in mind that Balkan topics are often overwhelmed with emotions and with long and exhaustive discussions. I hope you will help us reach a solution. Thank you. All the best.--WEBDuB (talk) 21:31, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Capitalization

Hey project, I was looking through Category:Flags of the American Revolution and noticed the inconsistency of article titles, e.g. we have Gadsden flag but Moultrie Flag. My own view is WP:SENTENCECASE means the former is correct, but wanted to ask this project before kikcking off a bunch of pagemoves. Thoughts? UnitedStatesian (talk) 13:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

The principle is that if it is a proper name it is capitalised, but if it is not a proper name it is not capitalised. So we write "the flag of the United States" or "the American flag", rather than "the Flag of the United States" or "the American Flag", but we write "the Stars and Stripes". That is the principle – the other half of the answer will be whether the examples you mention are proper names or not, and I haven't looked into that. Nurg (talk) 02:47, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Schools in the United Kingdom

I am attempting another armorial page, if anyone's interested. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 20:37, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Middle Earth

I have started an armorial for Tolkien's Legendarium. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 22:51, 9 October 2020 (UTC)

Lusignan coat of arms

Hi I noticed that the Lusignan family have coat of arms that are not of excellent quality and certainly less beautiful than those you are capable of doing. could you make them more beautiful, as they usually come to you?

Of this you should, if you can of course, also make a version with the cardinal insignia for Hugues and Lancelot de Lusignan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.20.244 (talk) 14:55, 23 October 2020 (UTC) thank you

when you read this message could you let me know? I just need to write to me below that you have read it. thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.20.244 (talk) 15:52, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.20.244 (talk)  

All of these except one looks fine to me, the problem isn't that we can't remake them, it's that an we would have to find an editor who knows how to make these and feels like remaking coats of arms that we already of decent pictures of. I can't help you, maybe someone else can. Thanks for asking. Flalf^Talk 14:58, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Chancellors of the Exchequer

Another armorial is underway. I have arms for most who have held the office in the last three hundred years, but a lot are missing citations on their own biographies. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 00:04, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Proposed Deletions

User:Fram has put deletion notices on a lot of the armorial pages, claiming they are non-notable. We have seven days to save them. I don't want a repeat of what happened at the Thomas & Friends task force some months ago, where practically the whole project got purged. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 13:05, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

Law Lords

I am drafting yet another armorial page, this time for Lords of Appeal and Justices of the Supreme Court. Robin S. Taylor (talk) 21:21, 17 December 2020 (UTC)

Flag of the Bourbon Restoration

I originally posted this to WikiProject France and have since copied it to WikiProject Flag Template since the issue stems from an inconsistency between the Bourbon Restoration article and its country data template. Hopefully someone here will be able to clarify the differences.

The flag presented on the Bourbon Restoration article is File:Royal flag of France during the Bourbon Restoration.svg, but the flag listed on Template:Country data Bourbon Restoration is File:Flag of the Kingdom of France (1814-1830).svg. However, that file's page states it is a naval ensign, and the Flag of France article says it was a naval ensign and national flag. Then we have the File:Royal flag of France during the Bourbon Restoration.svg which says it is the "Alternative Flag of Kingdom of France". Which of these flags is correct?
5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:37, 24 October 2020 (UTC)

As I have commented on WikiProject Flag Template, I gather that the blank white flag is the national flag and the flag with the crest is the royal flag (state ensign may be the correct term). Regardless, the Bourbon Restoration's article and country data template are inconsistent and the file pages do not help in clarifying this.
5225_C (talk • contributions) 07:59, 30 December 2020 (UTC)