Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Airports/Archive 20

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Part 135 Airlines in Destination Lists Discussion

Good morning! Over on the main WikiProject Talk page I posed a question regarding the formatting of Part 135 charter carriers in airport article destination lists. Would appreciate any thoughts! Discussion is located here: WikiProject Aviation Talk nf utvol (talk) 13:31, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Removal suspended flights Russia and Ukraine

I noticed that airlines flying on Russia and Ukraine with all their flights suspended are often removed from the destination list (example). The same happens with other airlines with some suspended flights. Those airlines and destinations are treated as if they cut completely. Is that a correct way to act? The Banner talk 11:44, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes it is. A flight or service can be considered "suspended" if a date for resumption is given. This is not the case here, flights have been discontinued "until further notice". If and when they resume, they can and should be re-added. Jan olieslagers (talk) 13:19, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Then you have a lot of work to do, removing all suspended destinations. The Banner talk 19:29, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Correction: "WE" have a lot of work to do - if we want to have things really right. Do not forget that WP is a collective effort. For myself, I am not in a hurry, in this case - since no one in their right senses will even be considering air travel in this area. Jan olieslagers (talk) 21:00, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Credibility bot

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Wikipedia:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 18:08, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Public Transit in Infobox

Hi all,

Opened a discussion over at Wikipedia talk: WikiProject Aviation with regards to public transit information in airport infoboxes. Feel free to join in the discussion! (VenFlyer98 (talk) 17:31, 10 August 2023 (UTC))

Requested move at Talk:RNAS Lee-on-Solent (HMS Daedalus)#Requested move 11 August 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:RNAS Lee-on-Solent (HMS Daedalus)#Requested move 11 August 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 15:42, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Sunan Shuofang International Airport#Requested move 2 September 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sunan Shuofang International Airport#Requested move 2 September 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 09:38, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

RfC on the "Airlines and destinations" tables

I have started a request for comments on the "Airlines and destinations" tables. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Sunnya343 (talk) 16:16, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Valley View Airport Nevada

This is the draft of my article that got rejected:"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Valley_View_Airport". I don't get why it did. I saw other pages of airports in Nevada, and they have the same number and type of references. I am fairly new to Wikipedia editing, so I would like to learn why the article got rejected. Thank you so much. CarlosAlfonzo3531 (talk) 18:32, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Carlos, you would need to find independent sources that discuss that airport in order to demonstrate that it's notable enough to be included in the encyclopedia. The notability guideline has more details. What other Nevada airport articles were you referring to? Sunnya343 (talk) 07:12, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi Sunnya343, thank you for the answer. I was referring to Calvada Meadows Airport (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvada_Meadows_Airport). It has pretty much the same info. CarlosAlfonzo3531 (talk) 16:46, 22 November 2023 (UTC)

I see what you're saying. Actually I don't even think we should have that article on Calvada Meadows Airport. I found a few sources in the Pahrump Valley Times and the Las Vegas Review-Journal that mention the airport, but they don't discuss it in detail. Sunnya343 (talk) 19:38, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Logan International Airport#Requested move 30 December 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Logan International Airport#Requested move 30 December 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ✈ mike_gigs ^talk_contribs 15:12, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Definite Articles Before Airport Names

A stylistic question: When should a definite article be used before an airport name? For example, no one would write "at the O'Hare International Airport", just "at O'Hare International Airport". However, what about Sheboygan County Memorial Airport? Would it be "at the Sheboygan County Memorial Airport" or "at Sheboygan County Memorial Airport"? –Noha307 (talk) 20:24, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

That's not about style, it is about grammar. Which is out of scope here. Besides, I suspect regional variance might be playing - there might well be differences between usage in Jamaica versus New Zealand, to name just two of the many English-speaking countries. Please do not seek complications where none are needed, wasn't there a rule like "go ahead boldly"? If you are doing something definitely wrong, it will be corrected one day. Jan olieslagers (talk) 20:30, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Since the airport names are proper nouns, the the would be improper I'd say. If you were to say "at the Sheboygan airport" it would be correct, but when using the airports full proper name there is no need for a "the". Reminds me of when my grandmother adds a "the" in front of store names ("the Kroger" or "the Walmart"), which just hits the ear wrong ✈ mike_gigs ^talk_contribs 14:44, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah. If you say the Sheboygan County Memorial Airport it implies that it's the Memorial Airport that happens to be in Sheboygan County, not that that's its name. Canterbury Tail talk 15:05, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Closure review request seeks to overturn decision for "RfC on the 'Airlines and destinations' tables in airport articles"

FYI, the RfC several months ago was closed on 18 November 2023 as follows:

• "After reviewing the !votes and discussion, it is clear that there is consensus that airlines and destination tables may only be included in articles when independent, reliable, secondary sources demonstrate they meet WP:DUE". There is not a consensus for wholesale removal of such tables, but tables without independent, reliable, secondary sourcing, and where such sourcing cannot be found, should not be in the articles.

See:

• Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive 187#RfC on the "Airlines and destinations" tables in airport articles

A conversation was started on 17 January 2024 at the Administrators' Noticeboard to review and overturn this decision at:

• Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Closure review request for the RfC on the "Airlines and destinations" tables in airport articles

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs • global count)} 01:42, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Airport traffic control tower

I have proposed at Talk:Air traffic control that Airport traffic control tower should be split out into a separate article, with potential for substantial expansion. Please see the discussion there. Cheers! BD2412 T 17:41, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

AviationAll and JetArena as WP:RS

Hello users, tweets of two users on twitter, AviationAll and JetArena are repeatedly being used as sources especially by FlyJet777. I believe these two twitter users are just aviation enthusiasts and their tweets cannot be considered as reliable sources. Would like to know the opinion of other active users in the project. Pinging Fylindfotberserk, Sunnya343, Jetstreamer to add their points. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 17:38, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

@LeoFrank: Don't look authentic, the first one definitely does not. Isn't it better to use news articles or official websites rather than tweets? - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 17:50, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

News articles are better no doubt. But FlyJet777 does not seem to do that. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 20:10, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello and greetings to fellow aviation users on Wikipedia. I would like to mention that I am well aware of the fact that Twitter is not a reliable source to be used on Wikipedia. However, I do have an explanation as to why I use it despite knowing the same.

1) As @Fylindfotberserk mentioned about news articles/websites, I fully agree with it. However, there are many routes for which such articles are not available. For example: MAA-KWI flight by IX scheduled to start on March 3. No article was published on the route nor the flight schedule is available on the airline's page. But, the reservations are open for the flight. So I added Kuwait in MAA's A&D list and cited AviationAll because that was the only online source available. And I did it only after verifying whether the reservation of the said flight was open.

If @LeoFrank and other users believe that I should instead use booking links (if Wiki rules permit it) from the airline website for citation, then its fine.

2) There have been several instances where other users add names of destionations without citing anything. In that case if any article is not available then I provide citation for the routes from AviationAll & JetArena (again, only after verifying if the flight reservations are open or not). Flight schedule updates on new flights are not available in most Indian airline schedules (except SpiceJet). So I provide a JetArena citation. But, as any reliable source becomes available (like Aeroroutes), I replace JetArena & AviationAll citation with that or other similar reliable sources.

Since citation is a very important part while adding content in Wikipedia, I use sources like AviationAll & JetArena when other sources are not available. Also while this may sound as immature statement, but AviationAll & JetArena are correct most of the time. Therefore, I use these two as alternate sources.

I hope I am able to explain my part. Thank you and best wishes to all! FlyJet777 (talk) 19:24, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

You can use twitter as a source only if it is from the official handle of the airline, not when it is some random person's tweet. About sources always not being available, we can WP:WAIT. Also, booking engines are not reliable sources, neither are tracking websites. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 20:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

To say, you add only after verifying if bookings are opened or not, it is original research. Please also familiarize yourself with WP:SYNTH. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 20:14, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

• These Twitter accounts are user-generated sources and should not be cited in any article.

  Regarding the example of the IX flight from Chennai to Kuwait, if no reliable source like an airline press release or news story can be found, it should not be added. As LeoFrank said, there is no rush to include it. We are not supposed to be a newsfeed of airline schedule updates. If no reliable source arises before the flight begins, a solution might be to add a third column to the table and cite IX's timetable, like what is done in the JFK article. Then when the flight starts, it can be added to the list and it would be supported by the timetable reference.

  To be honest I think this debate demonstrates that we should not have these lists at all per WP:NOTDATABASE and WP:NOTNEWS, but I won't get on my soapbox about this now. If the lists are to remain, they should be based on reliable sources. Sunnya343 (talk) 01:28, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

is a clear case where WP:SPS applies.--Jetstreamer ^Talk 12:36, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

SeanM1997 (talk · contribs) is one step ahead, they are using their own tweet to add content, eg: [1]. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 11:04, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

That is a lie! I have never used myself as a source. I've been told to use independent sources as apparently airline websites aren't good enough even when they're on sale! I do and now thats not good enough. I meet the terms and you still want to attack me for something which is not true? SeanM1997 (talk) 20:41, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I am also based in the UK, this is an article from India. One I had no control of their content. The accusations are just to harm me! SeanM1997 (talk) 20:42, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I will also say - look at my edit history. Look how many times I have removed other people's edits for quoting my X account and put an actual online article as a source. So when you say self promotion and my editing patterns - then I question YOUR agenda SeanM1997 (talk) 20:52, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Um you're using an article as a source that uses you as a source for something that is supposedly expected to happen? This is so far from a source you can use. The article is literally quoting your tweet as the source. Considering your huge issue and history with providing reliable sources I think this should be taken further. You clearly have some severe issues with providing reliable sources and it's gone on too long. Canterbury Tail talk 21:09, 21 February 2024 (UTC)