Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Anthroponymy

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Page Bosnich

As many people know, wikipedia is full of wrong information that when some try to correct it, they are prevented. The same thing happens with the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnich It is absolutely wrong to claim that the surname is Bosnich - Anglicisation. This surname originates from Bosnia (Bosnia and Herzegovina). In Bosnia and Herzegovina it is pronounced Bosnić.

Members of the Bosnich family have a family coat of arms As you know the letter "ć" does not appear in English language or any Anglican country. Not allowing these false data on the Bosnich page to be corrected and to write historically accurate statements with clear evidence is a problem for wikipedia and all members of the large Bosnich family who live around the world, and especially a large number of Bosnichs live in Bosnia and Herzegovina. Bosnich Nedim (talk) 19:10, 29 December 2023 (UTC)

What false information does the page now have? —Tamfang (talk) 01:07, 5 April 2024 (UTC)

False information is that only Australians are notable people with the surname Bosnich. It is obvious that someone wants to appropriate this noble family and portray it as an Australian family. It is a shame to talk about the Bosnich family without mentioning their origins. 77.77.216.18 (talk) 09:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

If you have information about the surname's origins, sourced to a reliable indpendent published source, then please add it to the article. Or if there are other people named Bosnich who are notable, please create articles about them and then they can be included in the list.

This is not "someone wants to appropriate this noble family and portray it as an Australian family", but "there are three people with English Wikipedia articles and the surname Bosnich, all of whom are Australian". Very different. PamD 11:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bz0dpY5llRGTM0ZRSDVQejJoZEk/preview?pli=1&resourcekey=0-1x1vNsvyW9_lMy7nH94IRA

(page 55)

The coat of arms of the Bosnich family appears as early as the 14th century. and at the beginning of the 15th century part of this family moved to Croatia. Part of this family settled in Hungary in the 16th century. The coat of arms of the Bosnich family contains elements of Bosnia and Illyria. - Source: Art rabic, Sarajevo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, 2016 "The Bosnian Heraldry".

Coat of arms of noble family Bosnich is in all Illyrian sets of coat of arms. Bosnich's who moved to Hungary were included in Hungarian noble. Coat of arms that they got in Hungary does not match this one represented here ("ILLYRIAN COAT OF ARMS BOOK" made 1340. Original stored in the Franciscan monastery of Fojnica, Bosnia and Heryegovina - Nedim Bosnich added this part in parentheses) - Source: Dr.A.Solovjev: "Additions for Bosnian or Illyrian heraldic" issued in "Glassnik of the National Museum in Sarajevo" New series, volume IX 1954. p. 93 (Messenger of National Museum in Sarajevo (Archaeology)) New series, notebook IX 1954. page 93.

It is an indisputable fact that the coat of arms of the Bosnich family originates from Bosnia and Herzegovina, as evidenced by the finds stored in Fojnica and Sarajevo (Bosnia and Herzegovina).

On the other hand, you cannot divide in Wikipedia the Bosnich family into American and Australian on the one hand, and Bosnian on the other or Croatian on the third, etc. etc.

There is only one Bosnich family on the entire globe, and it originates from Bosnia. 77.77.216.18 (talk) 13:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

What do you actually want to change? We have 2 lists: Bosnich and Bosnić. They are just an index of articles of people with these surnames. They are not articles about the name. No one is saying they are the only people in the world with these surnames. If there is someone from Bosnia with the surname "Bosnich" (not "Bosnić") then (a) an article about them could be created if the person satisfies our notability criteria and (b) they could appear in the list along with the 3 Australian people. What's the coat of arms got to do with anything? DeCausa (talk) 14:04, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Bosnić is Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian version of family name Bosnich. Slavic people use letters č, ć ž, š, đ and it's for somebody who wants to know more about the history of three countries - Bosnia, Croatia and Serbia. The family name Bosnić is pronounced the same as Bosnich in the Bosnian, Croatian and Serbian languages.

Since the Roman, Ottoman, Austro-Hungarian and other empires came and disappeared in Bosnia (today's name Bosnia and Herzegovina), they all left a religious and cultural mark behind them.

So now the surname Bosnich (Bosnić) is found in Bosnian families of the Catholic, Islamic and Orthodox faiths, and members of the wider Bosnich family can be found in many countries of the world, Argentina, USA, Canada, England, Germany, Switzerland, Norway, Australia and many, many other countries of the world.

Anyway, the root of that surname is in Bosnia and the name contains the name of the country of Bosnia. Bosnia was mentioned etymologically for the first time in 949. More than 1000 years ago.

So the answer to your question is that when we talk about the Bosnić and Bosnich family, we are actually talking about the same family.

Also, your article about the Bosnich family, to which you associate three Australians, is very superficial, without sufficient sources, information about the origin of the surname and facts that shed enough light on the whole story of the Bosnich surname. 77.77.216.18 (talk) 15:30, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

As was said above, if you can add relevant information, with reliable sources, to the article Bosnich, then please do so. Until then the article is a list of the people who have English Wikipedia articles and have that surname. There is nothing more to add. PamD 15:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Do you believe that the state of Bosnia exists?

Do you believe that there is a town of Fojnica in Bosnia?

Do you believe there is an "ILLYRIAN COAT OF ARMS BOOK" made in 1340?

You can find numerous proofs by searching Google if you don't believe me, and it's really obvious that you don't respect or trust anything I've stated, not even the sources I've provided. It's a way to underestimate someone and to use the Wikipedia page to make subjective representations of some facts about which you don't know much, but when you are offered evidence, you look for "relevant information, with reliable sources". It's a really dirty game. And that's why I'm ending this communication. 77.77.216.18 (talk) 16:02, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

What communication? —Tamfang (talk) 19:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)

Surname "Uppaluri"

Greetings, After finding article Uppaluri, I checked at "Find link" here and see 20 plus people with the Uppaluri surname. Asking for help here if anyone interested would like to make a surname list article? I did search & found List of people with surname Jones, so I see how this can be done. Wondering if any WP member here is willing to build a similar list. Regards, JoeNMLC (talk) 18:23, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

Hello, and apologies for the belated response. I do not think it would be wise to create a separate list just for 20 people, especially if a substantial amount of them will be redlinks. The Uppaluri page currently contains all people with Wikipedia articles who have the name and its listed variants. Red links may be added to name pages, but only if the subject of said link is obviously notable. You may also notice that not all of the subjects listed at the website you linked are people. Otherwise, you could try to find sources for the content currently in the article if you wish to improve it. Best regards, AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 03:00, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Template:Annotated biography link

 You are invited to join the discussion at Template talk:Annotated biography link#Substitute?, which is within the scope of this WikiProject. Jalen Folf (Bark[s]) 00:49, 7 April 2024 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Madonna#Requested move 1 June 2024

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Madonna#Requested move 1 June 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Dawid2009 (talk) 14:59, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Splitting lists of names articles when clearly different names

Looking at articles about names, there's two clear sets that I would separate more on coverage/quality than saying they are different types. However, the differences cause a problem. First you have detailed articles with some etymology and anthroponomy (great), and then you have what are mere listicles of people with the name - or (the problem) a name with a different origin that is spelled the same. When I improved Agron (surname), for example, I wrote about both separately but it might be better to have multiple articles. Or look at the Romeu listicle, which has a given name of one origin and a surname of another all on the same page.

Surely it is more logical to split articles and listicles into separate articles for separate origins, so that these can (now or later) be developed into articles that actually encyclopedically cover the history and usage of the name without getting wires crossed. (And on the other hand, you'd expect examples like Walsh (surname) and Branagh to be merged for the same reason.) Kingsif (talk) 23:25, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Hm, I feel kinda neutral towards this. I think that the system we currently have (one page for all variants/different etymologies) is fine in most instances, though if we have detailed histories about the different etymologies, the pages should probably be split as you said. Thing is, we often don't, so when we don't have substantial content about the history of the name, I feel that one page for any different etymologies should be fine, though I would agree that many pages currently don't delineate between etymologies well enough. On that last note, I think I'd feel naturally opposed to a merger between Branagh and Walsh, as they are cognates with drastically different spelling, though this brings up another problem: the thousands of pages which currently have nothing about etymology when such information is easily available. It'd be interesting to see others' opinions on this. AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 01:51, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Cognates? Did you drop a "not"? —Tamfang (talk) 07:12, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

another problem: the thousands of pages which currently have nothing about etymology when such information is easily available - honestly, I might just start trying to solve that problem, and splitting/expanding/whatever where necessary. Kingsif (talk) 12:33, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

We need to bear in mind that surname pages are useful for, and used by, the reader who knows someone by surname only, doesn't care about the etymology of the name, but needs to find the philosopher / musician / footballer of that surname. They don't want to have to check multiple pages because there are several surnames of different origin which happen to be spelled the same way: all they know is the spelling used by their person. By all means provided lots of linkages between different pages, to help those readers who want to learn about the etymology of the surnames, but I think we should prioritise the reader who has read a source referring to "the important earlier work by Xyz" or "Xyz's innovative style" and needs to find the person in their subject area with surname "Xyz", especially if "Xyz" is a word which is also a common noun or placename so that a simple search on "Xyz" is not an easy solution. PamD 07:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

IMHO, List of people with surname Xyz should be the place for that (if there's too many to just put them all under a "people" subsection of Xyz (disambiguation)), and an article of Xyz (name) should be about the name. Kingsif (talk) 12:28, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

PamD, as always, brings up a good point. The separate list idea works with common names though in most instances I don't think there's enough people to justify separate lists.

Also in response to Tamfang, Branagh I believe is derived from Irish Breathnach, from which Walsh is also occasionally translated, so I guess not always cognates, but wouldn't they be in that instance? I'm not a linguist though so by all means correct me if I'm wrong. AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 20:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

On the "cognate" thing, I believe you are correct - etymologically related, but in different languages, potentially with significant differences. If I had to guess, Tamfang may have been thinking of cognates in terms of "false friends" perhaps? Kingsif (talk) 20:54, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Two words are cognates if they have a common origin (which these obviously have not), regardless of their meaning. False friends are often cognates, but may also have only chance resemblance. —Tamfang (talk) 01:07, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Would Breathnach not be the common origin? AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 05:15, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

No, Walsh is from a Germanic word meaning 'foreign'. —Tamfang (talk) 03:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

You know, this discussion might be interesting to have over at the Walsh talk page, as I think (with sources of course) people could discuss developing the lead/content there - though I'd also make sure we're all on the same page regarding how we're using "origin" and "etymology". Kingsif (talk) 11:55, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

The Dictionary of American Family Names states that one of the origins within Ireland for Walsh is a translation of Breathnach, from which Branagh is derived. So they're usually not cognates but in that instance wouldn't they be? Though I agree that if this conversation will continue for much longer it should probably be at the Walsh talk page. AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 19:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Translation and cognate are separate concepts! —Tamfang (talk) 06:44, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I kind of see now. I guess I'll take your word for it as you probably know much more about linguistics than me. AllTheUsernamesAreInUse (talk) 21:28, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

It's funny how often I somehow give that impression. —Tamfang (talk) 08:46, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

The problem with that is that it means extending the WP:NAMELIST navigation hole one step further - if we add more clicks into the navigation path it does seem to make the layout neat and orderly. But, it also risks losing many readers, as we make them click extra and as we bury the lede (many names are relevant because someone relevant is named that way, not the other way around). --Joy (talk) 05:57, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd only advocate for a separate list if there's too many people to just have a subsection of whatever the top level article is (typically, the disambiguation). So, "move the list of people to the disambig rather than have it at the surname article" is another way of phrasing the same thought, I suppose. Kingsif (talk) 11:50, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

That's not typically what happens, though. There's Foo with a people list and nothing else, or there's Foo without a people list + Foo (surname) with a people list (extra 2 clicks plus scrolling to get to a biography) or a separate List of people named Foo (which in turn is horrendously bad for navigation because each biography is at least 3 clicks and probably a lot of scrolling away). --Joy (talk) 07:23, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Taylor (given name)

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/John Taylor (given name). Should first–middle name pairs like "John Taylor" have a name page? —Bagumba (talk) 13:12, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

How to categorize surnames that aren't really surnames?

For example, most Indonesian people don't really have surnames (Indonesian_names#Naming_forms). Thoughts on how something like Arianto should be categorized? Thanks, ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 16:59, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Are you distinguishing between hereditary and non-hereditary surnames, or between surnames and family names? In some cultures, a surname is any name given to someone in addition to the necessary or traditional names chosen by one's parents. For instance, in ancient Rome, the core parts of someone's name might be Gaius Rubellius, the former chosen, the latter inherited, but in Gaius Rubellius Blandus, the last of these three is called a cognomen, literally "surname", because it's added to the standard nomenclature—although cognomina sometimes became hereditary as well, and we would call the gentile name Rubellius a surname in modern parlance. In fact such names probably came about as surnames, and are so described on rare instances. But surnames were often personal and belonged to only one person in a family, though other, unrelated persons might also bear the same surname.

In the page "Arianto", it seems clear that the name Arianto isn't a hereditary surname—that is, the bearers didn't receive it automatically because generations of their forebears were named Arianto. If it was simply chosen as an additional name at birth, then wouldn't it be treated as a "given name"? If there are instances where it's verifiably a family or clan name, or bestowed as some kind of honorific or epithet, then those instances might be classified as surnames. Are there any such instances? It's not clear that it is in any of the listed examples, but if it could be one, you could say that it's usually a "given name" because most Indonesians don't have surnames in the modern sense (or any sense?), but that it can also be a surname. You would be able to categorize it as both types, although you might wait until there's at least one example of it as a surname, if you're not sure. On the other hand, if you're only referring to it as a surname in the above question because it follows a "given name", but is simply an additional one, as in "Jean-Claude" or "Johann Wilhelm" or "Cindy Lou", then I wouldn't categorize it as a surname. Hope this is helpful! P Aculeius (talk) 18:36, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

Speaking as someone who has written a few dozen articles about Indonesians, I don't think there's any easy answer due to the sheer diversity in types of Indonesian names and naming customs. I think it requires some engagement with each person's case as for example some names that are not a family name in one generation became a family name in another generation, which may not be immediately evident. Dan Carkner (talk) 21:12, 12 July 2024 (UTC)