Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2015 February 10

February 10

Template:Clemente crime family

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete as a navbox that doesn't navigate isn't useful. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Clemente crime family (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

unused, no links (not even redlinks) NSH002 (talk) 22:53, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• delete or move to userspace. Frietjes (talk) 00:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• Strong delete no template content ; Clemente Crime Family is a redirect to a videogame, which does not have separate character articles. WP:NOTGAMEGUIDE -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 05:46, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• Delete - This is a navbox that has no linked content (other than generic mafia-related terms) related to the subject of the navbox. Navboxes exist to provide easy navigation among a family of closely-related article links; this template fails that basic test. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

@NSH002: Next time you nominate a family of templates with similar content and nearly identical problems for TfD discussion, please consider submitting them in a single TfD for the sake of efficiency. It's not always appropriate, but often it is. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

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Template:Clemente crime family (1945)

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The result of the discussion was delete as a navbox that doesn't navigate isn't useful. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Clemente crime family (1945) (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

unused, no links (not even redlinks) NSH002 (talk) 22:53, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• delete or move to userspace. Frietjes (talk) 00:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• Strong delete no template content ; Clemente Crime Family is a redirect to a videogame, which does not have separate character articles. WP:NOTGAMEGUIDE -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 05:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• Delete - This is a navbox that has no linked content (other than generic mafia-related terms) related to the subject of the navbox. Navboxes exist to provide easy navigation among a family of closely-related article links; this template fails that basic test. [copied and pasted from above] Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

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Template:Moretti crime family (1913)

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The result of the discussion was delete as a navbox that doesn't navigate isn't useful. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 19:04, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Moretti crime family (1913) (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

unused, no links (not even redlinks) NSH002 (talk) 22:53, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• delete or move to userspace. Frietjes (talk) 00:48, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• Strong delete no template content ; This is about the MAFIA series of videogames, which does not have separate character articles. WP:NOTGAMEGUIDE -- 70.51.200.101 (talk) 05:50, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• Delete - This is a navbox that has no linked content (other than generic mafia-related terms) related to the subject of the navbox. Navboxes exist to provide easy navigation among a family of closely-related article links; this template fails that basic test. [copied and pasted from above] Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:05, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

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Template:Donetsk People's Republic topics

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The result of the discussion was delete as currently redundant to {{Ukrainian crisis navbox}}Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 10:46, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Donetsk People's Republic topics (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

The template is a fork of the Template:Ukrainian crisis navbox. If not deleted the template should be considered for merging. Most articles outside of history category in the template as well as politics category have nothing to do with the template's title and provide certain degree of confusion as well as misleading impression. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 19:35, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• Agree – This is not a useful template at all, and is predicated on WP:CRYSTAL. Delete. RGloucester — ☎ 19:56, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
• Keep It's a political entity. It's genuineness has been questioned, iand the simplest way of saying it is that it may be an entity set up as a front for Russian interests, but the assumption of its nonexistence is only an hypothesis. Removing this is an expression of political judgment, which we do not do. DGG ( talk ) 20:38, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

DGG, the problem isn't whether the DPR exists or does not, but whether this template is useful to the reader and not superfluous. At present, it is superfluous, and all the appropriate links can be found elsewhere. This is just clutter. RGloucester — ☎ 02:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

• Delete for now, subject to recreation if the DPR stabilizes and there are a greater quantity of relevant articles. The linked articles specifically pertaining to the DPR have almost all been deleted or merged into the DPR article itself, so the template is currently fairly useless, as User:RGloucester points out. The rest is either covered in the Ukrainian crisis template or circumstantial. I don't think there's anything on the template that'd be worth merging. —Nizolan ^(talk) 02:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• Weak delete as fairly redundant. —PC-XT+ 19:29, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
• Delete as an unnecessary fork of Template:Ukrainian crisis navbox.--Rurik the Varangian (talk) 11:12, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

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Template:Auto change

Relisted at Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion/Log/2015_February_19#February_19. Martijn Hoekstra (talk)

Template:Stanford Superstars squad

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was 'delete as a current squad of a defunct team makes no sense Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:20, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Stanford Superstars squad (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

This template was used for current iterations of the team, to help navigation between articles. The team is now defunct and has been for years, as Allen Stanford is in prison for an extremely long time. As such, there's no need for the template and it should be deleted. Dweller (talk) 17:05, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• delete, current squad of a defunct team. Frietjes (talk) 00:50, 11 February 2015 (UTC)
• Delete - "Current" (c. 2008) roster navbox for a team that no longer exists. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:01, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Template:Penang F.A.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete per nom Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:17, 18 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Penang F.A. (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Per WP:NENAN - the two stadium links are the only two links that aren't to sections of the parent article. Not a useful aid to navigation. Fenix down (talk) 16:24, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• delete Frietjes (talk) 17:27, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
• Delete per nominator's rationale. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:47, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

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Template:InChI

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was delete. --BDD (talk) 19:52, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:InChI (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Originally intended to format InChI identifier for a chemical substance. Not maintained since 2009, no activity in its parent Wikipedia:InChI long time either. Formatting control taken over by {{Chembox}} and {{Drugbox}} (together 15000 transc's, see also WT:Chemical infobox sections). These are developed, maintained and bot-verification is in place. No articles use it, also because recently I checked & moved any significant the data into {{Chembox}} on the page. DePiep (talk) 12:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

• delete Frietjes (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
• I could envisage that this could be used to format etc. an in-prose InChI, but then, I do not see any reason to put that in the text for discussion or evaluation (other than in examples on the InChI-wikipage, but to have a template for that is superfluous). Delete. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 06:19, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

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Template:Infobox nhsc

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the template below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was merge by substituting transclusions of Template:Infobox nhsc with Template:Infobox historic site, with the addition of the following parameters, that are currently not catered for in the sandbox: elevation; current_use; original_use. (nac) Alakzi (talk) 21:02, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Template:Infobox nhsc (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Template:Infobox historic site (talk · history · transclusions · logs · subpages)

Propose merging Template:Infobox nhsc with Template:Infobox historic site.
{{Infobox historic site}} already caters for NHSCs. I've begun to make the latter a wrapper or the former, in the latter's sandbox, but a number of parameters (see HTML comments there) are not catered for. These would seem to be appropriate for a more generic template. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:07, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

• Merge, and thanks for making Template:Infobox nhsc/sandbox to make the decision easier. There is a Canada-specific parameter, but I expect its handling can be sorted out. —PC-XT+ 16:55, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
• Merge So long as all parameters are in place. Which they appear to be. Montanabw^(talk) 19:42, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
• Merge Agree with nom. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 20:07, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

I still agree with the eventual merge, but given Dirtlawyer1's comment below, also agree that we should first look at the entire list of historical site templates. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 14:24, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Merge - I think we're beating a dead horse at this point, and the discussion has veered off in an unfortunate direction. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

• Query - Why are we not discussing this proposed merge in the context of all similar templates? There appear to be templates for historical sites, ancient sites, Canadian historical sites, etc. Instead of merging these two because they were handy, should we not be discussing all of these, and determining if there should be a single template for all related uses, or alternatively, whether there is some basis for maintaining separate templates for all or some of these existing similar uses? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 21:19, 4 February 2015 (UTC)
  • I suspect that such a broad proposal would meet resistance for being too vague. Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 14:48, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
    • @Martijn Hoekstra: As other regular TfD participants have said elesewhere, this is Templates for Discussion. Getting it right is more important than getting a quick and easy outcome. If that requires a more involved discussion, we should encourage that, not treat it like an inconvenience. If wider discussion is unproductive, that's easily cured with another more narrowly focused TfD. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:33, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
      • If there are other similar templates that can be usefully merged, then we can either try to have a huge omnibus discussion - which tends to become unfocussed - or we can discuss merging one or two at a time. In this case, it seems to make more sense to me to deal with this proposed merge (as a 'test case' if you will). If this discussion results in a template that satisfactorily covers nhsc within the generic 'historic site' template, then that would clearly inform later debates on other related templates. Attempting to over-broaden this discussion will do nothing more than muddy the waters. This proposal is concise and to-the-point and there's no good reason to go off on tangents. From what I can see, this merge would achieve the desired goal of easier maintenance. There doesn't seem to be any good reason to have two separate pages of template code when one will do the job. --RexxS (talk) 17:42, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
        • Rexx, do you know what other similar templates exist? Do you know whether this is the best combination of two similar templates to be merged? Have you ever used either of them? This merge may very well be a sensible one, but I think we can and should get more input before slam-dunking another merge of two templates that none of the TfD/TfM discussion participants have ever used. Don't you? There is no deadline. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
          • No, so tell me what other templates exist that are similar enough to these two to form a sensible merge discussion. I assume that you've already researched this, so let's hear your suggestions. It doesn't matter whether these are the best combination (whatever that might mean); if there are others we'll get round to them in good time. There's no need to try to do everything at once, and allowing this discussion to proceed is a sensible first step. --RexxS (talk) 23:39, 9 February 2015 (UTC)
          • "two templates that none of the TfD/TfM discussion participants have ever used" Would you care to substantiate that rather bold assertion? Hint: You cannot. I have used Infobox historic site sufficiently often to know that, as I said above, the parameters currently found only in the Canadian template (|original use= and |current use=, for instance) "would seem to be appropriate for a more generic template". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:52, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Accusations of marginalisation, etc., notice of template creators

I've never used a thermonuclear device either, but that wouldn't disqualify me from contributing to that article. I have technical expertise with template coding and Lua programming (and almost 50 years of programming experience) so why should I be excluded from commenting on a process that is likely to make use of the skills that I possess? --RexxS (talk) 00:08, 10 February 2015 (UTC) Rexx, as far as I know, no one is suggesting that anyone should be excluded from the TfD discussion; quite the opposite, in fact. The more the merrier, and certainly someone with your programming/coding background may have something to offer. At a bare minimum, however, the TfD nomination instructions and common courtesy both suggest that the template creators should be notified on their user talk pages. Furthermore, the TfD nomination instructions also suggest that major contributors to the templates should be notified in addition to the template creators. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC) You directly questioned whether I have used these templates "Have you ever used either of them?". That's a clear attempt to draw a distinction among editors contributing here. What is the purpose of that if not to marginalise my comments? The TfD instructions don't suggest that both template creators be notified in the case of a merge, so you really shouldn't be repeating your mistake in confusing what they ought to say with what they actually say. --RexxS (talk) 10:47, 10 February 2015 (UTC) Yes, Rexx, those are the exact words I used, not in attempt to "marginalise" anyone, but to point out the obvious foolishness of not notifying the template creator, who actually designed the template, and presumably used it, and understands its intended purposes and uses better than anyone else. Intentionally not notifying template creators is contrary to common courtesy and common sense. Furthermore, there is no exception/exemption in the TfD instructions for merges; if you believe there is, I suggest you quote the specific exception language. An experienced editor like yourself know that no good comes from failing to notify authors/creators in any XfD. It borders on trying to game the system. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:46, 10 February 2015 (UTC) Never mind what you claim your intentions were as the effect is to belittle other editors by casting doubts on their comments if they have not used the template. Your bluster about notifications is completely unrelated to the issue of asking me if I had used the template. The intent is actually transparent and you are merely trying to deflect by claiming it's about something that had not even been raised when you made the "Have you ever used either of them?" comment. I also note that you refer to Andy's nomination as "foolish". What possible reason could Andy have for not notifying Dudemanfellabra? The simple explanation is that he did not know that he hadn't because he trusted Twinkle to do the job. Yet here we are with your contrived indignation and accusations of "intentionally" at complete odds with any assumption of good-faith, presumably because Andy is the target of your attack. Nobody who follows the instructions at TfD sees an instruction to notify the second creator and you need to understand the difference between exception and omission. You don't need a exception from something that's not there in the first place. --RexxS (talk) 03:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't need much convincing, and I'm personally not opposed to broader discussion where an exact merge is not well-defined, but there has been vehement disapproval of that in the past, and I think - I can't know for sure obviously - that that is the answer to your question why a wider, less exactly defined proposal wasn't put forward. As to why we're not discussing it, well, we are now, it seems. What templates do you propose to include? Martijn Hoekstra (talk) 18:10, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

• I'll put together a list for consideration, Martijn. Please note we have another problem: failure to notify one of the template creators per the TfD instructions. If Andy/Pigsonthewing will not notify the template creator, someone else needs to do so, and this TfD needs to be relisted for at least another 7 days. 18:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of notification of template creators (1)

Comment - I note for the record that the nominator, Pigsonthewing, has again failed to notify one of the template creators in one of the nominator's proposed TfD merges. This is the 7th day of this particular TfD/TfM, and no effort has been made by the nominator to notify User:Dudemanfellabra. This has become a pattern for the nominator, and, yes, failure to notify the template creators of a pending TfD/TfM is problematic. By failing to provide the template creators with notice per the TfD instructions, we are denying the editors who are most knowledgeable about the templates, their history, their purposes and their uses an opportunity to comment. Not only is that procedurally improper, it's also foolish if the purpose of the exercise is to obtain the best outcome for the encyclopedia. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 18:20, 9 February 2015 (UTC) The instructions at TfD don't require the notification of the creator of the other template when a merge is proposed. This is an oversight in the instructions and should be taken up at Wikipedia talk:Templates for discussion. I've notified Dudemanfellabra of this discussion and hopefully he'll find the time to contribute here. --RexxS (talk) 00:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC) Rexx, thank you for taking the time to notify Dudemanfellabra, the template creator. Please note that the TfD nomination instructions explicitly state: "You generally should notify the creator of the template, and it is also considered polite to also notify the main contributors of the template that you are nominating the template." The instruction are no different for TfMs than TfDs. I'm not sure where anyone gets this idea that there is some sort of loophole for not notifying one of the creators to a proposed template merge because I see no such "oversight"; in fact, it's pretty clear. I have read several times where Andy/Pigsonthewing advanced a similar theory. Logically, however, that makes very little sense because once a merge is proposed, there is no certainty as to which template will be the survivor, what parameters it will include, and what will be added to or deleted from it. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 02:03, 10 February 2015 (UTC) That's simply not correct. The TfD instructions were written to cater for deletions discussions and only later expanded to include merge discussions. They don't suggest notifying the creator of the template that it is proposed for merging into. If you actually follow the steps for the merger, you'll see that they call the template that becomes the subject of the discussion "name of template" and the template that is the proposed recipient of the merge "name of other template". Step III (Notify users) gives this instruction "For merging: {{subst:Tfmnotice|template name|other template's name}} ~~~~", Nowhere does it suggest doing the same for the creator of "name of other template". It is obvious from the use of the singular in You generally should notify the creator of the template ... that the instructions concerning mergers were inadequately modified from the case of deletions. As a result, I think you'll find that using Twinkle to make the nomination fails to make the second notification that you'd like it to. It is unhelpful to blame nominators for the deficiencies in the system used to make those nominations. If you want to embark on a crusade to correct that problem, then take it to Wikipedia talk:Templates for discussion. You can count on my support there. --RexxS (talk) 10:47, 10 February 2015 (UTC) See my comment above: there is no exception/exemption for not notifying the template creators, Rexx. And, in fact, the TfM notice template works just fine for both target and survivor templates (see, e.g., [1]. Using auto-editors such as Twinkle, etc., is not a valid excuse; the nominator can always take the extra two minutes to manually add a TfD notice to the second template. Time to stop making excuses for TfM nominators not doing the right thing by our fellow editors and the Project. Not notifying template creators serves no good purpose. Period. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:46, 10 February 2015 (UTC) You're talking complete nonsense. Anybody using Twinkle to make the TfD nomination will fail to notify the second creator and won't even realise it unless it's pointed out to them. Since nobody but you has raised the issue, it can't have been the problem you're making it out to be and TfDs have been proceeding perfectly well. As you have not raised this complaint against any other editor who uses Twinkle to make the nominations, we may conclude that this is just another opportunity for you to single out Andy for your attentions. --RexxS (talk) 03:30, 11 February 2015 (UTC) Rexx, not only is it not "complete nonsense," my previous comment is a straightforward recital of facts. Furthermore, it's already been pointed out to the nominator by me and other discussion participants in prior TfD discussions (please see diffs in response to your similar objection below). As you well know as an experienced editor, the issue is one of basic procedural fairness and XfD best practices: authors/creators should be notified of pending XfDs, and the instructions are pretty darn clear on that point. Now, would you like to hat this massive procedural digression that threatens to overwhelm the substantive discussion of this proposed merge, or would you like to continue to draw attention to this problem for the benefit of other less-knowledgeable Twinkle users? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 13:47, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Plastikspork _―Œ^(talk) 03:37, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me of this discussion. I had seen some edits in my watchlist, but I hadn't really paid attention until this was brought up on my talk page. As the creator of {{Infobox historic site}}, I think I have a pretty good idea of the infobox's original intent.(Disclaimer: I haven't looked at the NHSC infobox in any meaningful manner, so take my comments on it to be from a non-expert)

Infobox historic site was originally created to be the go-to infobox for any historic site, i.e. one designated as such on a local, state/provincial, national, or international official register, especially if a site is listed on multiple registers. It actually came about as an alternative to {{Infobox NRHP}}, which is only used for sites on the US National Register of Historic Places but also supports displaying additional local designations. This new infobox was created for sites that were on local registers but not nationally designated (so the NRHP infobox would be inappropriate) and then kind of morphed into a catch-all historic sites infobox. It came about pretty much concurrently with WP:HSITES, which is now unfortunately pretty inactive, at least judging by the project talk page. The infobox was created to be as generic as possible while still being flexible enough to properly accommodate any register. The method of accommodation of such registers is through Template:Designation and its subtemplates, which have actually changed quite a lot since their inception, and I haven't really kept up with everything as much as I originally intended to. It actually seems that the Canadian register is already supported by the generic infobox, and maybe the creator of the NHSC-specific infobox wasn't aware of it? Or maybe (s)he wasn't satisfied with the broad parameters supplied by Infobox historic site and wanted more NHSC-specific fields?

I would support merging the two infoboxes, but really it may be that they are already merged (or at least mergeable), albeit indirectly and slightly sloppily. In addition to the generic official name, type, criteria, designation date, and ID number parameters (among others), Infobox historic site allows for each designation several "free" parameters, the labels and values of which can be anything one wants. Perhaps the NHSC-specific parameters can be placed there? If there are other parameters that would be broadly applicable to many different registers, then it would be fine to add those as additional generic parameters, but to add parameters for every individual register should be avoided as it would severely bloat the code. I remember this being a prominent issue when the infobox was created, thus the customizable parameters as a compromise. It is also possible to just add more customizable rows if needed.

TL;DR: I support merging the two templates, but I don't think any NHSC-specific parameters should be added to Infobox historic site so as to protect the infobox code from unnecessary bloat.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 06:43, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

Although I would note, @Dudemanfellabra:, that the two parameters in the NHSC template not found in the generic template (|original use= and |current use=) are not Canadian specific, would be applicable to historic sites worldwide, and seem quite appropriate for Infobox historic sites (without risk of bloat). The free parameters, I think, are better used for country-specific information. My support for the merge was on the basis that those two parameters were carried over, as they are (on their face) quite useful and relevant. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 18:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

I added the original and current use parameters to Infobox historic site. I agree that they are widely applicable to many historic sites. I would say the templates are sufficiently merged, and the articles that use Infobox NHSC can be converted over to Infobox historic sites.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 06:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. --Skeezix1000 (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of notification of template creators (2)

@Dudemanfellabra: Thank you for providing the historical background of these templates. Yours is exactly the kind of input I would hope template creators and major contributors would provide in any TfD or TfM. And it is what is often lost when TfD/TfM nominators intentionally do not notify both template creators in TfM discussions. I would hope that would be self-evident to other regular TfD participants, but that is apparently not the case based on the extended defense above of not providing such notices. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:56, 10 February 2015 (UTC) To be honest, I am not that mad I wasn't contacted. I would much rather we comment on the templates themselves than attacking other editors, even if those editors may have done something wrong. The majority of the conversation here has been you two squabbling back and forth, and it's quite annoying to have to wade through really.--Dudemanfellabra (talk) 15:55, 10 February 2015 (UTC) @Dudemanfellabra: I appreciate your comment, and I certainly can understand why you find the back-and-forth annoying. That having been said, the nominator has a history of not notifying template creators in TfD/TfM discussions, even going so far as to claim some sort of exemption/exception/loophole, and, yes, that's a problem for TfD/TfM process and Wikipedia generally. Rexx (not the nominator) is kinda sorta defending that failure by also claiming that same loophole. If it takes some "squabbling" to draw attention to this problem, get participants to adhere to XfD best practices, and perhaps even annoy a few fellow editors, I'm prepared to take some criticism (and I would hope you could understand that). Cheers. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:11, 10 February 2015 (UTC) re "I am not that mad I wasn't contacted." -- It's not just for you that such notification is advised. As Dirtlawyer1 write, it resulted in useful background information. In general, it is a lowering of discussion standard to omit it, if not into failing. (Since this was done deliberately, I am surprised to find this TfD relisted. What's wrong with the rule: you disrupt the discussion, you loose the argument?). -DePiep (talk) 16:40, 10 February 2015 (UTC) DePiep, there is no reason to scotch this TfD discussion. The notice problem was raised, RexxS provided the template creator with proper TfD/TfM notice, and Dudemandellabra has provided some helpful background. I think we can return to a substantive discussion of the issues, and perhaps even hat the digression regarding notice so as not to distract from the substantive discussion. The point has been made, corrective action taken, and the TfD discussion relisted for another week. That's enough. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 16:57, 10 February 2015 (UTC) What are you talking about? Who is talking scotch here? How could I know I must ask your permission to speak? -DePiep (talk) 17:14, 11 February 2015 (UTC) I see that once more the same group is piling on to attack Andy rather than discuss the merits of a merger. It not true that editors "intentionally do not notify both template creators" and "Since this was done deliberately" is a malicious falsehood. I'm calling both of you on your deliberate lies here and I hope that others will see this for what it is - part of a concerted campaign to remove Andy from this arena by foul means because you haven't got the arguments to support your desire to keep worthless templates. And Dirtlwayer, there's no "loophole", there's simply a missing instruction from the TfD page and an automated tool that follows those instructions too strictly. Now how about making some useful contributions like the list you promised days ago, or raising the Twinkle problem where it can be fixed, rather than obsessing over Andy's use of the tool just because it's Andy. --RexxS (talk) 03:43, 11 February 2015 (UTC) @RexxS: There is no missing instruction. Provide notice to template creators. Simple. As for using Twinkle to format TfDs and provide notices to template creators, etc., that is a choice. If the editor knows that the automated tool does not provide all notices, then the editor can either (a) not use the automated tool, and do it all manually, or (b) use the automated tool, and then complete the notice process manually. Where is the problem? In six years on-wiki, I've submitted dozens of XfDs, and not once did I use an auto-editor. As for this subthread, clearly none of it is about the merits of the proposed merge; it is an obvious digression about TfD/TfM notice procedures and XfD best practices. The only reason this digression continues is because of you're defending a bad notice practice, apparently because it's Andy. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 04:13, 11 February 2015 (UTC) There is a missing instruction. Please don't misquote to try to bolster your mistake. It says "notify the creator of the template" - creator: singular. Not creators: plural as you pretend. Read the instructions for merging: first you add {{subst:tfm2|template name|other template's name|text=Why you think the templates should be merged. ~~~~}} to today's TfD log page; then "You generally should notify the creator of the template, and it is also considered polite to also notify the main contributors of the template that you are nominating the template. To find them, look in the page history or talk page of the template. Then, add one of the following:For merging: {{subst:tfmnotice|template name|other template's name}} ~~~~ to the talk pages of these users. Note where it says: "the creator of the template"; "the main contributors of the template that you are nominating". Singular: "the creator", "the template", "the template that you are nominating". Not plural: not "creators"; not "templates"; not "the template that you are nominating as well as the template that it would be merged into". You only nominate one template. That's how the process is set up. Does it tell you to notify the creator of the template that the nominated template would be merged into? No. Should it? Yes. But fixing that requires raising the issue elsewhere and your interest is obviously not in fixing the issue, but in scapegoating Andy for it. If the nominator knew that Twinkle doesn't provide all the notifications, then you would have a point. But please explain how the nominator knows that Twinkle doesn't provide all the notifications. Twinkle looks up the name of the editor who created the template being nominated for merger, so the nominator does no research. How could they possibly tell that they didn't notify the creator of the other template unless they went and did that research and then checked up. They use Twinkle precisely to avoid all that effort and will just assume that Twinkle works. Why assume bad-faith when it's obvious that there never was an intention to not notify. Or doesn't that suit your agenda? --RexxS (talk) 05:06, 11 February 2015 (UTC) Singular vs. plural: attempting to rationalize the failure to notify the template creators on this basis is pure sophistry. No court in any Anglo-American jurisdiction would ever accept such a transparent evasion. The intent is clear: notify the template creator. You ask which template creator should one notify in a TfM? In your interpretation, the instructions cannot be rationalized in a situation where the proposed merge incorporates elements of both templates. How would we know which template creator to notify when both templates will be merged and/or materially altered? Answer: you can't; the only way to rationalize the instructions is to notify both template creators in a proposed merge. Afterall, how would you handle the notices for a proposed merge of three or more templates? Shall we randomly select one of three or four template creators to notify, while ignoring the others? Your rationalization is a logical dead end in multiple TfM scenarios. As for whether the nominator was aware of the purported Twinkle problem with TfD/TfM notices, yes, Andy/Pigsonthewing is aware of the issue. I am not the first TfM discussion participant to raise the issue with him, and it's not the first time I've raised the issue, either: [2] and [3]. In that prior discussion, I went so far as to politely ask him to take care of it on his talk page [4]; in response, he deleted that request from his talk page [5]. So, yes, he knows; I don't need to assume anything. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 07:09, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the template's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.