Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2018 January 8

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January 8

Khachaturian's Saber Dance: Muting the trumpets originally in the composition?

Please see this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IMczfLNoGYQ&feature=youtu.be&t=95 At about 1 minute 35 secs the trumpeteers fix mutes on the bells. I wonder if the composer wrote it thus or is it the discretion of the conductor? --Remadevil (talk) 14:10, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

The use of a mute is usually indicated in musical notation by the Italian direction con sordino ("with mute") and removed with the direction senza sordino ("without mute") or via sordino ("mute off"). There is no such notation on these orchestral scores [1] [2] yet this performance of the Sabre Dance has the trumpet muted from the start at 0:14. I conclude that the trumpet mutes are at the discretion of the conductor who will consider the hall acoustics and orchestra population which can vary. [3] SdrawkcaB99 (talk) 14:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you SdrawkcaB99. Your reply not only answered my question but was also much informative. thank you again. Remadevil (talk) 18:09, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Hello Remadevil and SdrawkcaB99. I'm sorry to reopen this when you thought it had peacefully gone to sleep but I was looking at trumpet-related stuff here and stumbled across this question. I'm sorry to say that I don't agree with the reply given. I know it's really really annoying when people try to establish their credibility by saying I am the Professor of this or the author of that, so I will just say that I am neither, but do own some trumpets (and mutes!) and have played them for rather a long time.

The use of the mute is almost always at the request of the composer. Since the different tone colour of the muted trumpet (or whichever brass instrument) is part of the artistic pallette available to the composer, you would expect them to keep control of it, and you would expect the performers to respect that. As a player I would think it presumptuous of me to decide to use or not use a mute, and I would be extremely surprised to have a conductor tell me to add a mute where not written. So, no, it's not really performer's discretion – it is a question of what the composer wrote and is not for the likes of me or Simon Rattle to make adaptions to. We do have some surprising freedoms in our operations but this isn't generally one of them.

With all due respect, the examples given above don't help us much, unfortunately: one is of an arrangement, not the orchestral original, which means that it, like all arrangements, must be discounted from this discussion of the full orchestra version we see performed here. The other is, as far as I can see, only the first page of the score, whereas the con sord direction will be right there on the page where the mute is needed, not far in advance.

I don't think that I can lay my hands on the score or a part but if I do I will try to remember to grab a copy of the page for you!

Any trumpet player (or trumpeter, if you must, but please not "trumpeteer"!) reading what I've written above will recognize the essential truth, and will also know that I have generalized a tiny bit, but not in a way that effects the outcome for this question or for most cases in most written mainstream Western music.

I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm being a stroppy old moo and pouring cold water, which is not my ambition, but I hope that this has helped clear things up a bit further. With best wishes to all DBaK (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

What are utility pants?

A boy wearing a pair of utility pants and a utility vest

A search on Wikipedia doesn't turn up any results at first glance. 69.22.242.10 (talk) 23:15, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

these.--Jayron32 23:22, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Obviously that's not the answer I was looking for. 69.22.242.10 (talk) 23:28, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, you didn't make it clear what kind of answer you were looking for, nor what prior knowledge you had when you asked the question, nor what context the terminology was used in to guide those helping you. --Jayron32 11:59, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps underpants conforming to the utility clothing standards of the Second World War? See also CC41. DuncanHill (talk) 23:36, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

There is no precise definition, but I think of contemporary utility pants as being very similar to Cargo pants or Tactical pants. They are a type of Workwear made of durable fabric with large pockets. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:50, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

They are what Batman holds up with his Utility Belt. -- Q Chris (talk) 13:41, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

The boy in the picture seems to just be wearing underwear and a t-shirt, not pants and a vest (utility or otherwise).OldTimeNESter (talk) 14:40, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

If, like me, you had grown up in the UK in the 1950s, you would certainly have called those items pants (or underpants) and a vest. This is one of the classic differences between British and American English. Wymspen (talk) 14:54, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

The term "drawers" instead of (under)pants was also used in the UK, as in my family up until the early 1960s. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.41.3 (talk) 16:24, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

I was certainly aware of the term "drawers" - but in my experience only girls wore them. Wymspen (talk) 13:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Well, I called what I wore "drawers" up until around 9 years old, and I definitely wasn't a girl! {The poster formerly known as 87.81.2390.15} 90.200.41.3 (talk) 16:26, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

He is wearing what are in Britain called pants and a vest. DuncanHill (talk) 14:55, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

• What's with that waistline? Is it an anti-onanistic prophylactic, or are British yutes subject to having their rib cages come loose? μηδείς (talk) 17:07, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Waistlines were much higher in the 1940s, see 1940s Style Men’s Pants and Trousers "They also fit very high up on the waist reaching to bottom of the ribs." I strongly suspect that there was also a shortage of elastic, since our rubber plantations in Malaya had been overrun by the Japanese in early 1942. Alansplodge (talk) 10:59, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Hence the warning "Girls who trip the light fantastic shouldn't wear cheap elastic". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:06, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Waistlines were worn nearer the waist than the hips in those days. One advantage of a high waistline is that it keeps your belly warm. DuncanHill (talk) 14:37, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Nothing to do with every day handles, then? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:45, 11 January 2018 (UTC) .... "Winter draws on", as they say in the Caribbean...

I am sorry, but the crossed legs, the suggestive hand gestures, and the pained face? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Medeis (talk • contribs)

Facepalm (((The Quixotic Potato))) (talk) 03:28, 12 January 2018 (UTC)