Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2011 December 1

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December 1

Reducing national debt

I was intrigued by this article on the BBC website: Eurozone debt web: Who owes what to whom?. I was particularly intrigued at the idea that the UK is €209.9 bn in debt to France, while France is €227 bn in debt to the UK. All this debt seems to count towards the total indebtedness of both nations. What is wrong with agreeing a debt swap such that the UK is €0 in debt to France, while France is only €17.1 bn in debt to the UK? Surely this and similar debt swaps among other nations would reduce the total indebtedness of nearly all nations, in most cases reduce their national debt as a percentage of GDP, and improve the economic outlook across much of Europe. Or maybe someone would like to explain why it is not that simple? Astronaut (talk) 12:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I believe what is meant by that chart is that combined the UK government and banking institutions is €209.9 bn in debt to French banks, whilst the French government and its banks are €227 bn in debt to the UK's banks. You can see why a swap would therefore involve potentially hundreds of firms. Indeed, that is not the only reason why the mechanics of a debt swap would be rather difficult. Not only does everyone owe to everyone else, but at different interest rates, different maturity dates, etc. Working out the correct compensation for these factors would not be easy. - Jarry1250 ^{[Weasel? Discuss.]} 12:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Blame "double entry bookkeeping" I suppose. "Liabilities" ("debt") are not cancelled out on that side of the ledger by balancing "assets" (that is - owning debts from others). Collect (talk) 12:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Jarry1250 has it correct (and Collect's response is needlessly confusing). From the introduction to the infographic: "The arrows show how much money is owed by each country to banks in other nations." In other words, if an Italian bank buys a €100 bond from the French government, and a French bank buys a €100 bond from the Italian government, then both governments are indebted by €100 to the other country's banks, but not at all to the other country's government. (I'm using Italy instead of the UK just to avoid confusion involving debts denominated in pounds sterling versus euros.) In that situation, the French and Italian governments can't just shake hands and call it even—if they did so, they would have effectively stolen €100 apiece from each other's banks. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:29, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Using the OP's example countries, could the UK Government not buy up the debt from the UK banks, the French Government would do the same with her banks, then a debt swap could take place? The Government could issue bonds (or some other mechanism) to pay for it. I can't believe I've solved the global banking crisis here, so what's the flaw with this? :) --Rixxin (talk) 16:31, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

They don't have that kind of money on hand to buy out those loans, and issuing bonds to pay for them just increases their debt further. Looking at the big picture, if governments owe private banks more money than they can pay, the only option is to default on at least a portion of that debt. StuRat (talk) 16:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

But surely the idea of Government bonds are that they are effectively "IOUs"; money drawn on the future output of a country? You don't have to have the money "in the bank", just the future potential of money. And the idea the OP had was that by nullifying all these large numbers down to vastly smaller numbers, credit scoring agencies, markets, etc, all view the new debt levels as being more benign and less risky. It's all a massive cooking the books exercise though, and would be ostensibly transparent to the watching world, so maybe it's all pointless! --Rixxin (talk) 16:45, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, they are. But that's what the banks hold in any case (as I understand it), so if you issue some more to buy them back it doesn't really help matters. It moves where to banks to which you are indebted are, but not the total quantity of debt. Or am I missing something? 128.232.241.211 (talk) 19:09, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You're not missing anything. All Rixxin's plan would do is mean that the UK government owes UK banks lots of money and the French government owes French banks lots of money, rather than the governments owing each other's banks lots of money. That doesn't really change anything, and would annoy the banks since they already hold lots of their own country's bonds and want to spread their assets out rather than have all their bonds be from own country (because then if that country defaults, they lose everything). --Tango (talk) 21:49, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you here. I keep hearing talk of spread of "contagion" between countries, so I think my thought process was that if a government owes her internal banks money that's better for the world economy, at the moment. Also, if you go to the OP's link, and click on Japan, it says: "However, most of its debt is owed internally, so it is not seen as at risk of default." which sounds positive, right? --Rixxin (talk) 09:16, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

What martial art is shidokan karate ?

What martial art is shidokan karate ? I've been searching through the internet but i only found some articles that mainly serve as yoshiji soeno's biography rather than an accurate description of the style . I watched some of the tournaments and it seems good . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.76.175 (talk) 19:34, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Will this help? --Ouro (blah blah) 21:09, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I was a little bemused at first as the answer seems to be in the question, but I see it's a little more complicated than it first looked. The style appears to be a combination of multiple disciplines - karate, Thai boxing, judo and jiu-jitsu are specifically mentioned here (a page I assume you've seen). The organisation seems to class it as a form of karate, given their name and affiliation with the World Karate Association. On the other hand, they also call themselves Shidokan Karate Kickboxing - in view of that and the other cited influneces it is probably best classified as a hybrid martial art. AJCham 21:16, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Was Martin Luther King, Jr. originally named "Michael King, Jr.?"

The article Martin Luther King, Sr. says he was named Michael King, until he changed his name to "Martin Luther King" in 1934. "Martin Luther King, Jr." was born in 1929, per his article, which makes no mention of his name ever being changed. It is possible that "Michael" King,as he was named in 1929, named his newborn son "Martin Luther King," then later decided to name himself after his son, making them Sr and Jr, but that would seem a very unusual sequence. There is no discussion of this in the father and son articles. If MLK Jr was born with a different name, it should be mentioned in the lede, just as for Gerald Ford and Bill Clinton. What are the facts? Edison (talk) 20:01, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Both apparently changed their names (well, the son being four, perhaps it is more accurate to say his name was changed) - see here. The Online King Records Access database also has an entry for a birth certificate (#s 290115-000, 290115-001) for MLK Jr. which is noted as "Filed 4/12/1934 and revised 7/23/1957; name changed from "Michael."". 4/12/34 is presumably the official change of name; I'm not sure what the 7/23/57 note refers to.

The article infobox does mention it, interestingly, but it's not in the text. Feel free to add it with an appropriate source... Shimgray | talk | 20:12, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

King Jr's case is complicated by the fact that his name was incorrectly registered on the birth certificate by the doctor, an old family friend who knew Sr. as "Mike", and assumed his son was going to bear the same name. (This according to Sr.) Notice that the birth certificate is revised -- that's rather different thing than a change of name, I think. So saying Jr. was "born with a different name" is questionable; what is a person's real name? Is it what the doctor writes on the birth certificate, or is it what the parents intended the name to be? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 00:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Errors on birth certificates are not unheard of - I had an uncle who had the "same name" as his older brother (the doctor was getting a tad iffy) - until he went to get a passport and had to have it corrected! IMHO, it is not up to WP to deem it to be a "change of name" absent a reliable source specifically stating that as a fact. Collect (talk) 01:29, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

the concept of human development

which indicators shows that a certain society is developing? and Are those indicators/elements present in African countries? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.222.181.4 (talk) 21:10, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Welcome to Wikipedia. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our policy here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know.. Wikipedia articles which may help you work out the answers to your homework question are Human Development Report, Human Development Index and Human development (humanity). --Jayron32 21:19, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Ink signature on identification card

For a plastic identification card with a space for a signature, what type of ink or what type of pen is the most resistant to smudges caused by fingers or raindrops?
—Wavelength (talk) 21:58, 1 December 2011 (UTC) and 21:59, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps a permanent marker such as a Sharpie? The article discusses its permanence. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:38, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

It's been my experience that permanent marker rubs off really easily from a smooth plastic surface. ~Alison C. (Crazytales) 18:37, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

I wouldn't be so confident about a sharpie. When used on paper (where you'd think it would be even more permanent) a sharpie is easily washed off with acetone, where as the ink from a gel ballpoint survives. Although most cheques and other paper instruments contain countermeasures to prevent them from being successfully washed with acetone or ethanol, I don't know what countermeasures a signature strip has. The paperwork that comes with a card will say what to sign it with - mine clearly said "ballpoint black pen only". Gel pens may smudge on a signature strip, so ordinary cheap Bic pens may be best. 2.122.75.79 (talk) 19:10, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

In my experience, ball point pens work best in these situations. They're fairly waterproof and for whatever reason are not as easily scraped off as Sharpies are. --Mr.98 (talk) 19:05, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Finding ink that's not water soluble is fairly easy, only felt-tipped pens seem to use water-soluble inks, so avoid those. Finger smudges are more of a problem, since they contain both water and oil. So now you need an ink which is neither water soluble nor oil soluble. Do they make latex ink ? StuRat (talk) 05:08, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I think a point may be being missed here. Some plastic cards that require a signature (such as credit and bank debit cards) have a special strip for it, whose material is designed to fix the ink from a variety of pens: fountain pen, felt tip and ballpoint pen ink all become fairly unsmudgable provided that they're allowed to dry after the initial signing. If the ID card in question is one such, then there should not be much of an issue. If (as is more likely) it's not, then it's going to depend on the type of plastic, which we (and probably Wavelength) can't be sure of, but either the issuers (if, say, Wavelength is an issuee) or the manufacturers (if Wavelength is, say, an issuer buying a component of a security system) ought to be able to give the best advice. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.31 (talk) 07:30, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

The top of the line is a VWR lab marker. You can label any kind of plastic test tube with it and it'll stay put, when even dried Sharpie letters would quickly smear completely away. Heck, you can actually use them to label a Southern blot while it is sealed inside a plastic bag filled with enough P32-containing solution to make the Geiger scream, and not get any counts on the tip of the marker. ;) Wnt (talk) 19:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Uploading an image and locking content

Hello,

I am having trouble uploading my company logo and tagline to my page.

I've tried to upload a file under the tool box but no success, can you let me know why this might be happening?

Also, can you please let me know how I can lock the page so others cannot make edits?

thank you

--Inspiredifferent (talk) 22:06, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

First, questions about how to edit Wikipedia generally go on the Help Desk. This desk is more for general knowledge questions about the world outside Wikipedia. Second, to answer your questions, what error are you getting when you try to upload a file? Are you following the instructions at WP:UPLOAD? And third, you can't lock a page and you can't own it either. See WP:OWN for more on that last point. An article can be locked by admins but only for certain reasons such as constant vandalism, edit disputes, etc. If you post an article, it can be edited by anyone. That's the point of a wiki. Before you post an article about a company though, be sure that it meets the notability standards per WP:CORP. And finally, it's actually best if you not edit an article about a company that you work for due to the conflict of interest that it poses. See WP:COI for more on that. Dismas|^(talk) 23:07, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

You don't seem to have made any edits to any page that requires protection. Wikipedia is the encyclopedia anybody can edit, so pages aren't protecetd unless they've been seriously vandalised. For future reference, if you want a page protected for repeated vandalism or edit warring, read Wikipedia:Protection policy. If you're not sure if a page needs protection ask on Wikipedia:Help Desk. --Colapeninsula (talk) 09:47, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

The OP's userpage seems to be the start of an article about their business. At the moment, it contains no references and no indication as to why they meet Wikipedia's notability guidelines at WP:GNG and WP:CORP. It is probably a little early to consider uploading the company logo when there is so much more to do to survive a potential speedy deletion challenge. Astronaut (talk) 11:57, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia often gives a frosty reception to people with a so-called "WP:conflict of interest" - too much so, in my opinion. Nonetheless it should be clear that pages about companies need to be "WP:verifiable", based on reputable third-party sources, and you should expect any page that survives to cover the good as well as the bad. Parenthetically, the fact that you've dived into this without looking carefully first is not very reassuring about the quality of your ad agency - though of course, we don't actually know you're associated with them in any way; the lack of verified identity is another reason why people are wary of "COI editors" because we can be (and have) been hoaxed in the past.

I should say, though, that you don't actually have to wait to upload your logo - you can do it right now if you want, at Wikimedia Commons. But, you can only upload it to Commons if you're willing to irrevocably release any copyright on the artwork, which you may well feel is unwise to do, though you could still maintain trademark over it, and some simple logos aren't copyrightable anyway. I haven't seen it so I can't say. It is possible to upload a trademark for a company to Wikipedia directly as a "Fair Use", without releasing the rights, for purposes of identifying it in an article if the trademark is discussed there, but you have to have an article for that. Wnt (talk) 19:45, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Texas Mammals

Need to know any mammals that live in Texas with the following letters - Se_p - "s" "e" "blank" "p"98.19.209.126 (talk) 22:21, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

List of Texas mammals seems to have nothing that fits. Rmhermen (talk) 23:07, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

I've tried all of the likely letters (aeilmnorsuwy) for what's missing, with no luck. If this is a crossword entry, you may have made a mistake with one of the other letters. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:41, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Possibly you have the last letter wrong in your crossword and it is seal. --Lgriot (talk) 10:19, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry I have just read that it is now extinct, so probably not seal, actually. --Lgriot (talk) 10:25, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

There are, or at least used to be, crossword dictionaries that help in figuring out the answers when several letters are known. The one I have is no help for this specific clue. Maybe the OP could direct us to the crossword puzzle, and we could all have a go at it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:40, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Or at least post the clues for the intersecting words, so we could check them. --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:41, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

WolframAlpha does crossword help through inputting words in and underscores as blanks e.g. Se_p returns 'seep' and only seep, leading me to assume (like others) that one of your letters is wrong. E.g. if you put R___s_ for instance (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=r___s_) it returns a good starting list and then just keeps letting you show more and more and more. Of course there's a chance WolframAlpha doesn't have the animal you're talking about though. ny156uk (talk) 19:08, 2 December 2011 (UTC)