Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 July 9

Language desk
< July 8	<< Jun | July | Aug >>	July 10 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 9

What does "painted rust" mean?

• Soviet power is a myth. A great show, but there are no spare parts. Nothing is working. It's nothing but painted rust.

What does "painted rust" mean? Rizosome (talk) 01:35, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• I don't know the context, but from the wording, it sounds like it's a special case. The metal that acted as a metaphor for the Soviet Union was already rusting, but instead of replacing it, the Soviet Union painted it to make it look new. So it's not really a concept in everyday use. JIP | Talk 01:37, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

See also Potemkin village. 2602:24A:DE47:BA60:8FCB:EA4E:7FBD:4814 (talk) 08:24, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

• Idiom for looking good on the outside, but rotten on the inside. Bazza (talk) 08:52, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but also literally, there really are thousands of tanks and aircraft rusting away over there e.g: [1]. Except nobody is now bothering to paint them. Martinevans123 (talk) 11:25, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

The OP's quote comes from The Good Shepherd (2006 film), see this. Urban Dictionary has an entry for it for what it's worth, but I haven't found any other usage of this idiom, except in this fanzine article about Star Trek: Enterprise, which has; "their strength is painted rust". Mind you, other references may well be obscured by the myriad articles advising how to actually paint over rusty surfaces. Alansplodge (talk) 15:26, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

--- please insert your own (copyvio) YouTube car-repair video here --- Martinevans123 (talk) 15:31, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

It also has echoes of Potemkin village, although painted rust implies there's something real behind it, aging and decrepit; more akin to a lemon (car) that has been steam-cleaned and painted. Mathglot (talk) 17:02, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Question about companion ships

In the article I just translated from Finnish: MS Viking Glory, I wrote:

Her companion ship will be MS Viking Grace.

Now, MS Viking Grace has already been in traffic for over half a decade. It's MS Viking Glory that is the new ship to join her. Did I write this right, or should it be reworded? JIP | Talk 01:35, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

How about She will be a companion to MS Viking Grace? —Tamfang (talk) 04:09, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

If the ships are built to the same design (apart from trivial modifications), the usual term is sister ship.  --Lambiam 18:39, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

But in this case, the newer vessel is larger, so it's safe to presume that they are not from the same ship class and therefore not sisters. Alansplodge (talk) 12:15, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Judging by what I can tell with my non-existent knowledge of Finnish (listenng to Juice Leskinen doesn't count) the challenging word is "linjaparina", which probably refers to sharing the same route. The source doesn't seem to use this specific term, but seems likely to confirm this interpretation, the word wikt:yhtiö probably refers to "company" in a economic sense, not as in "companion". In general, referring back to the source and rewording seems a viable approach, specially for someone who translated the whole article, whether a similar english expression exists is naturally still a valid question. Personuser (talk) 13:17, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Polish hycel

The first season of the Polish detective show Ultraviolet ends with a two-parter about a serial killer dubbed Hycel. (When exposed, he remarks that the label is over the top, melodramatic.) The only translation I can find for the word hycel is 'dogcatcher' or 'animal control officer'. Could it mean something else with a diacritic? —Tamfang (talk) 04:04, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

A synonym for "hycel" is "kat" in Polish which means executioner or hangman which seems more appropriate for a serial killer. https://en.bab.la/dictionary/polish-english/kat 41.165.67.114 (talk) 10:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Another synonym - oprawca : https://en.bab.la/dictionary/polish-english/oprawca 41.165.67.114 (talk) 10:12, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Wiktionary lists a colloquial sense of "rascal, ne'er-do-well".  --Lambiam 10:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Those sound more like euphemisms rather than being melodramatic. 41.165.67.114 (talk) 10:29, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Pinging CiaPan, Kpalion, Piotrus once again. ----Sluzzelin talk 11:35, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

The primary meaning, as Tamfang has already found, is "dogcatcher". Doroszewski's PWN Polish dictionary also provides the glosses noted above, that is, "rascal, scoundrel" and "executioner or executioner's assistant (dated)". According to this list in Polish Wiktionary, the word also has a special meaning in Polish prison slang, which is "psychologist" (probably used mostly for the prison psychologist). I don't know whether this is relevant for the show, but perhaps it should be also noted that in Polish slang, the word pies ("dog") is used as a derogatory term for a police officer. Also, to answer Tamfang's specific question, there is no word in Polish that would only differ from hycel by a diacritic (it's a borrowing from German). — Kpalion^(talk) 14:22, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Kpalion is right. I'll ping User:Nihil novi too but I don't think there is much to add here. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:18, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

The Polish word "hycel" comes from, and is pronounced like, the German word "Hitzel", and – as a synonym for another Polish word, "rakarz" – means "dogcatcher". Additionally, it is used in senses of "hangman", "executioner", "torturer", "tormentor", "knacker", "flayer", "scoundrel", "rascal", "knave", "rogue", "blackguard", "good-for-nothing", "scalawag", "scamp", etc.

Thus hycel, like so many words in various languages, has multiple potential meanings, depending on context. In this case, the meanings range in tone from functional to grim to unprepossessing to playful.

You'll have to watch the TV program and come to your own conclusion about the intended meaning, in context.

Nihil novi (talk) 08:24, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah, he's the Executioner because he beheads his victims. Interesting that Kpalion mentions "psychologist" as a possible meaning; the man ultimately exposed as Hycel is one. —Tamfang (talk) 05:25, 12 July 2021 (UTC)

Resolved

Trying to understand Latvian

I found an old museum guide to the Martin Luther museum in Latvia. The entire guide is in Latvian. On the cover there is a picture of Martin Luther and a dog. The dog is saying:

Sveiki! Mani sauc Telpels, es esmu suns, un tas ir mans saimnieks Martins Luters!

Now I don't understand pretty much any Latvian as I have never studied it. But I have visited Riga and Jurmala and seen so much of the Latvian language that I have picked up quite many words from context. So I think an approximate English translation would be:

Hello! I am called Telpels, I'm a dog, and this is my writer Martin Luther!

How accurate is this translation, and what is the correct translation? JIP | Talk 21:40, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Google translate gives "‎Hello! My name is Telpel, I'm a dog, and that's my master Martin Luther!‎" - master would make more sense than writer here. Telpel, or rather Tölpel, was Luther's dog, he features in Table Talk if I recall correctly. DuncanHill (talk) 21:49, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Then I got pretty close without actually understanding a single word of the text, everything was picked up from context. I find it funny how much it resembles Garfield's first line in the first ever Garfield strip:

Jon: Hello! I'm called Jon Arbuckle, I'm a cartoonist and this is my cat Garfield.

Garfield: Hello! I'm called Garfield, I'm a cat and this is my cartoonist Jon.

Jon: Our only wish is to entertain you.

Garfield: Feed me. JIP | Talk 22:10, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Also I seem to remember Tölpel means "fool" or "idiot" in German, which was Luther's native language. Latvian apparently lacks an "ö" letter. Did Luther have a weird sense of humour when he named his dog this way? JIP | Talk 23:16, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

A Tölpel ist not so much an "idiot" in German, but rather a clumsy or awkwardly behaving person. --Morinox (talk) 10:34, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

See Wiktionary:tölpel. Alansplodge (talk) 12:11, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Like calling a dog Goofy. I think he also called it "little helper". It's 40-odd years since I read any of this, and that in some sort of "Luther for the Little Ones" book. DuncanHill (talk) 23:41, 9 July 2021 (UTC)