Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2018 August 18

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August 18

Reduplication in names of genres

I think it's interesting that reduplication (if I'm using the right term) is very common in names of musical genres. Hip-hop, doo-wop, boogie-woogie, honky-tonk, freak folk...

Just for it's own sake, I wonder about what a complete list of these would look like. Any more ideas?

Also curious about reduplication in genres of other artforms: romcom, po-mo, sci-fi, chick flick... Temerarius (talk) 02:24, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

The names of the first four musical genres you mentioned are technically ideophones... AnonMoos (talk) 02:31, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Reduplication (sub-section Engish) is the general term. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Touching on one of your examples, "Sci-fi" was coined by prominent science fiction fan (and sometime professional writer and editor) Forry Ackerman as a deliberate play on Hi-fi.

(Science fiction's original name and abbreviation, coined by Hugo Gernsback who defined the genre, were "Scientifiction" and "Stf", now only used nostalgically. Forry intended "Sci-fi" to refer to the whole of the genre, and was miffed when other fans shifted its meaning to reference media (radio/TV/film) sf works of inferior intellectual and artistic quality, or written works derived from or resembling such material. From the 1960's, dedicated SF fans (ones actually active in fandom, not just readers) used "Sci-fi" as a shibboleth: anyone using it to refer to the written genre as a whole was perceived to be a journalist or other non-knowlegeable interloper. Current fans jokingly use the mispronunciation "skiffy" as an ironic reference.) The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.0.130.143 (talk) 19:26, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

WHAAOE. --ColinFine (talk) 21:25, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

I should have guessed, Colin [:]¬).{The poster formerly known as 87.81.230;195} 94.0.130.143 (talk) 23:18, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Neo Geo (disambiguation) Bus stop (talk) 21:44, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

On Latin interjections

I'm curious about interjections and disfluential utterances in classical (or later, I guess) Latin. They'd be hard to find in something engraved or written in some text! Do we know what somebody would say for "oh!" "eh?" "ah," "huh?" "hey," "whoa!" "hmm" and so on in ancient Rome? Temerarius (talk) 02:29, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

The plays of Terence and Plautus go pretty far in presenting a kind of conversational Latin which is rather distinct from the usual more formal written Classical style (though still "literary" in its own way). Various interjections are known, such as "Eheu", "Mehercle" etc... AnonMoos (talk) 02:44, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

oh wow! A minced oath invoking Hercules? That’s perfect. Temerarius (talk) 03:24, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

WHAAOE, but sometimes you have to turn to Italian Wikipedia for it. --Antiquary (talk) 08:29, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Muggins

My neighbour in Hounslow he complain that he has to do many childcare and he say "look Muggins here is left holding the baby". Who is this Muggins person? I find only a dominoes game here at Wikipedia. Or was there famous British comedy actor Bernard Muggins? Thank you. 86.187.165.163 (talk) 11:54, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

See [1]. 86.132.186.138 (talk) 13:07, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Perfect link above, but "a stupid person: often used to describe yourself when you have done something silly or when you feel you are being treated unfairly" Cambridge Dictionary. Alansplodge (talk) 14:08, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Your friend from Hounslow is also using in a literal sense a phrase that is usually used figuratively. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:17, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

With regard to the "famous British comedy actor Bernard Muggins", you may be confused with Bernard Cribbins. My father used the term "muggins" referring to himself in the way described above. He also used the rejoinder "Just mugging along" when asked how he was doing or how he was feeling. Somewhere I recall this latter usage in a song or film from the 1930s, possibly by Bing Crosby. Akld guy (talk) 21:52, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Hmm.. that fits better with chugging along; perhaps a bad case of the mondegreens. Alansplodge (talk) 22:20, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Ah yes, mugging. They target the frail, smell the weak. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:44, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Doesn't Muggins mean the same as the equally confusing "Yours truly"? HiLo48 (talk) 23:45, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

How is that confusing? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:11, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Neither expression says anything like what they really mean. HiLo48 (talk) 07:27, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Except that "muggins" implies that you've either done something stupid, or that you've been taken advantage of like the OP's babysitter, "Yours truly" is not self-critical AFAIK. Alansplodge (talk) 08:41, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

"Yours truly" is a traditional ending to a letter just before the signature. It's a variation on "Sincerely yours", for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:30, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Indeed Baseball Bugs, but HiLo48's point was that it can also be used in an idiomatic way to refer to yourself, such as: "There's nobody here right now but yours truly". Alansplodge (talk) 11:49, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Sure, but there's nothing ambiguous about it. As with a letter, it's kind of a third-person way of saying "me". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:19, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Or something less formal like "I remain, Sir, e're your most obedient and humble servant". Martinevans123 (talk) 17:26, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Soytenly. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:45, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

The term "muggins" is discussed on EO.[2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:11, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

My experience of "muggins" has been almost always as a part of "muggins 'ere", with that typical diction. It seems to me to be far more used darn sarf than in the North. But I have no documentary evidence all to support that experience. Is this expression used in Scotland? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:12, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Re: darn sarf, my father's family going back to the late 1700s were from Reading, which seems to have been in the sarf for many hundreds of years. Akld guy (talk) 10:53, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

The traditional Berkshire accent is more Wessex, nothing like the stereotypical Southern accent. DuncanHill (talk) 11:51, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. Ricky Gervais is from Reading and his most famous character is an inhabitant of Slough. His accent is hard to place, but definitely has a West Country burr to it. --Viennese Waltz 12:00, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

This Quora question: "What are some words or phrases that are only used in your region?", has a respondent from Cheshire (about halfway down the page) who lists "muggins" as a local dialect phrase. Alansplodge (talk) 11:59, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Ah well, a wee bit nearer Jockland there. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:51, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Muggins] is also a card game. "Muggins" is the last player left with unplayed cards in their hand. The objective of the game is to avoid being Muggins. Gandalf61 (talk) 13:41, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

In view of the dominoes game mentioned by the OP, Muggins, does that card game warrant an article? Or do we need a DAB page? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:35, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

It's also a cribbage term, see Cribbage#Muggins. shoy (reactions) 18:20, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Goodness. DAB page here we come, I feel. [3] Martinevans123 (talk) 18:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

German film title translation

What does Vater sein dagegen sehr mean in English please? The Google and Bing translators don't agree with each other, but neither really makes any sense. Alansplodge (talk) 14:15, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

It’s only the second part of an aphorism by Wilhelm Busch. In full it goes Vater werden ist nicht schwer, Vater sein dagegen sehr. Roughly "Becoming a father is easy, but being a father is (quite) hard." Cheers ✦ _hugarheimur 15:13, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks Torana, so perhaps "Being a father is hard" might do? Alansplodge (talk) 15:59, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

With the caveat that the film title is not a complete sentence. Literally, it only says "being a father, however [is] very much [so]", the rest is only implied (which is why Google can’t make any sense of it). Cheers ✦ _hugarheimur 16:14, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

That makes sense now. Google manages "Father, on the other hand, is very much". Danke vielmals. Alansplodge (talk) 21:58, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

Resolved

Zacke (German) in English

"Eine Krone mit zwölf Zacken" or "eine zwölfzackige Krone" would be what in English?--Neufund (talk) 22:37, 18 August 2018 (UTC)

No, Was would be what in English. Indications are that it means a twelve-pointed crown, although if you google-image the phrase, there are a lot of illustrations that don't add up to precisely twelve. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:09, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Bugs, I concur with your translation, but can you explain your first sentence in small? Neufund's question seems to me to be perfectly acceptable colloquial (British) English. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.0.130.143 (talk) 05:21, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Merely teasing. As in who's on first, what's on second, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:34, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

See Who's on First? if you're still confused. Alansplodge (talk) 08:44, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

More to the point (pun intended) see also de:Zackenkrone. Alansplodge (talk) 08:47, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

The joke is that "what" is the English translation of the German word "was". Bugs is deliberately misreading the question ""Eine Krone mit zwölf Zacken" or "eine zwölfzackige Krone" would be what in English?" as a statement meaning ""Eine Krone mit zwölf Zacken" or "eine zwölfzackige Krone" would translate to "what" in English."--Khajidha (talk) 12:17, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

As for the question in the heading, from poking around de.wiki and de.wikt, I get the impression that Zacke is a pretty good match for "tooth" in every sense except the literal, biological one. A tooth in your mouth is a Zahn, but a tooth of (say) a saw-blade is a Zacke. --Trovatore (talk) 20:09, 19 August 2018 (UTC)

Zacke noun [feminine]: point , tooth , prong. Cambridge German-English Dictionary. Alansplodge (talk) 11:39, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

I think that's a good example of why bilingual dictionaries are problematic. The entry mentions "tooth" but doesn't say that it doesn't mean a tooth in your head. Admittedly I'm not sure it can't mean that, but I saw no mention of it (except in etymology sections) in the de.* pages. --Trovatore (talk) 17:54, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

My feeling (as a native speaker but not a linguist) is that Zacke primarily describes a geometric shape and objects of that shape rather than a specific type of object. If you have a particularly pointy tooth you might call it a Zacke (because it looks like one), but a Zacke is not a tooth as such. The article closest to de:Zackenkrone seems to be Eastern crown (at least the articles have a crucial figure in common), and that article calls the things "spikes". I'd like to think that Zacke is cognate is to the "zag" in "zig-zag" (Zickzack in German), but I can't find any definitive confirmation for that. --Wrongfilter (talk) 18:18, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Do German dictionaries include word origins, as English dictionaries do? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Baseball Bugs (talk • contribs) 19:41, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

etymonline.com says: 'zig-zag (n.) also zigzag, 1712, from French zigzag (1670s), perhaps from German Zickzack (though this is attested only from 1703), possibly a reduplication of Zacke "tooth, prong." Earliest use in German is in reference to military siege approaches'. Alansplodge (talk) 19:59, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Is this a reference to the Woman of the Apocalypse? DuncanHill (talk) 11:48, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

The problem would seem to be that "tooth" has a double meaning in English, whereas there are two words for it in German which cover more specific usages. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:45, 21 August 2018 (UTC)

Wow! Honestly, I did not expect such an active interest... So, all the better! Now, to sort things out a bit, you would rather speak of a "twelve-pointed crown" that of a "twelve-toothed" one, right?--Neufund (talk) 22:38, 20 August 2018 (UTC)

Some examples picked at random:-

"He suggests twelve stars about her head or else a twelve pointed crown" [4]

"The twelve-pointed crown of heaven rests upon her milky brow" [5]

"With undisguised delight he mounted the jewelled throne, on which such enormous sums had been lavished, and placed on his brows the twelve-pointed crown" [6]

"He asked him to wear the twelve-pointed crown (taj) to which Humayun consented most gracefully". [7]

Alansplodge (talk) 13:04, 21 August 2018 (UTC)