Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2011 April 13

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April 13

Multilingual works?

What are some works of literature or media in general in more than one language? By this I mean not that it has been translated but that the original was written in more than one language, and with the languages integrated / with more than one significant language (i.e., not some expressions / dialogue in a language but the main text in a main language, as is the case in For Whom the Bell Tolls), such that not to understand both languages poses a serious barrier to comprehension. If possible these shouldn't be two extremely close or intelligible languages. THanks. 72.128.95.0 (talk) 02:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Many Hong Kong films include dialogue in both Cantonese and Mandarin, which are not mutually intelligible but exist in a diglossia. In mainland China these films are generally subtitled, but I don't know if they are in Hong Kong, where most of the population is at least bilingual in these two languages. rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:23, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Many Hong Kong films are typically produced with Chinese and English subtitles. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:03, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

True of mainland films as well, of course...but do HKers actually turn on the subtitles? (assuming, of course, that they're watching one in which the subtitles can be turned on and off, not one of the cheap pirated DVDs or movies on tudou.com ;) ) rʨanaɢ (talk) 12:12, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Two that spring to mind: War and Peace (according to our article) is 2% in French. That works out at a significant number of pages! Much of The Anatomy of Melancholy is in Latin. Henry^Flower 03:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Another film that comes to my mind is Lost in Translation, which has large chunks of un-subtitled Japanese dialogue. It is done in such a way, though, that you don't need to understand Japanese to comprehend the film, and in fact that's kind of the point (although I've been told by Japanese-speaking friends that some of that dialogue is really funny). rʨanaɢ (talk) 03:35, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

You may want to take a look at Macaronic language#History, along with the following section. Deor (talk) 04:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Henry V (play) was written with some all-French scenes, and a few scattered French phrases in other scenes; but probably the way it was originally performed (presumably with little effort to ensure that the French text was fully correct or pronounced in an authentically French way, and with the actors providing context through their gestures or movements) some part of the meaning would have come through, and overall enjoyment of the play would not have been greatly diminished if you didn't know any French. However, you would have missed the bilingual puns on French dirty words! -- AnonMoos (talk) 04:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

If you are monolingual, Finnegans Wake is largely incomprehensible. When I started to read it (aloud) I found out that my knowledge of German, bits of French and Latin helped a lot. A few morsels of Greek, Hebrew and sundry other languages will also be useful. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 05:46, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Likewise, in the novel (and subsequent film) The Name of the Rose, one of the monks (I believe it was Salvatore) speaks in what is supposed to be an incomprehensible gibberish, however knowledge of the basic set of most spoken European languages (like French, German, Latin, Greek, etc.) makes Salvatore's ramblings understandable to the reader. While the novel was originally written in Italian, even the English version preserves Salvatore's unique speaking style. --Jayron32 05:53, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

It's not really gibberish, it's just different languages mixed together. Foucault's Pendulum also has a mix of languages, especially Latin and Hebrew. But the books aren't incomprehensible if you don't understand those parts. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:48, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

In the first half of The Wages of Fear, people speak several languages seemingly as the whim of the moment takes them. (In the second half, they speak French because it's what the four main characters have in common.) —Tamfang (talk) 07:27, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Okay, there are lots of movies that are multilingual; Babel is one that springs to mind, but there are thousands. The thing is, these would have been screened with subtitles. I don't think that's what the OP was asking about. Mathew5000 (talk) 07:32, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

In the domain of stage plays, I remember attending a bilingual version of "Romeo & Juliette [sic]" in 1989. Here's a link: http://archives.cbc.ca/arts_entertainment/theatre/clips/9035/ —Mathew5000 (talk) 07:35, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I'd wager that there are quite a few Irish works about the pre-Independence period which combine Irish and English, though the only one I could actually name is Translations. Our article says;

"In the world of the play, the characters, both Irish and English, "speak" their respective languages, but in actuality English is predominantly spoken. This allows the audience to understand all the languages, as if a translator were provided. However, onstage the characters cannot comprehend each other."

I don't recall exactly what that 'predominantly' works out as, but I seem to remember a fair amount of Gaelic in the play. If you accept closely related languages, there are certainly works combining Scots and English. Henry^Flower 10:19, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The book Le Ton beau de Marot comes to mind. This book is about translating, with examples from English and French. 93.95.251.162 (talk) 10:29, 13 April 2011 (UTC) Martin.

Another thing that comes to mind is language parodies, like this well-known English/German parody:

ACHTUNG ALLES LOOKENPEEPERS

Das Computermaschine ist nicht fur Finger-poken und mittengrabben.

Ist easy schnappen der springwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fur gewrken bel das dummkopfen. Das rubber-necken sightseeren must keepen hands in das pockets relaxen und watch das lights ger-blinken.

93.95.251.162 (talk) 10:36, 13 April 2011 (UTC) Martin.

Large parts of Irvine Walsh's novel Trainspotting is written in Scots language which makes it difficult for us sassenachs to understand (unless your inner voice reads it using a scots accent). Astronaut (talk) 10:39, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a common variety of English that, at least for these ageing ears, is so very difficult to understand that it may as well be a foreign language. I typically hear it on TV shows, spoken by young-ish American-ish females, but I also hear it a bit in real life from local gels who've obviously been influenced by these programs. It's characterised first and foremost by speed - it's like they're so desparate to say each sentence as quickly as possible, that by the time I've realised they've said what they had to say, the other person has already said their bit and it's back to the first person again. Which makes for very poor comprehension on my part. The next thing about it is the little-girl cutesy quality of the vowels - but which comes out anything but 'cute', more like 'incredibly spoiled brat'. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? One example is Pauley Perrette on NCIS - I never understand a single thing she says. (And even if I did, the relentless, ceaseless damn music, which is anything but "background", completely wipes that out.) When these people mingle with others who speak "normally", it's very much like there are 2 languages at work. Such is my experience. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 13:20, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I thought it was only me going deaf after the menopause! Teens have always had their own sort of argot, but the present generation seems to be carrying it over into real life.--TammyMoet (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

For young readers, there is the Nonstop series by David Fermer. I've never read any of them, but from what I gathered the two languages (English and German) are used to convey two different points of view of the same story from two different people. The reader's required level of English seems to be very basic. ---Sluzzelin talk 14:49, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I am currently reading Sepulchre (Kate Mosse novel), and though it is understandable I am well aware that I am missing a lot by not knowing French. Incidentally, Indian films often switch between Hindi and English, both of which would need to be known to follow them. Sometimes they include another Indian language and the odd Sanskrit quote, though they are understandable without knowing this. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:59, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

For another movie example: Night on Earth consists of five separate stories, performed in four different languages (English, French, Italian, and Finnish). I highly recommend the film, even if you only understand one of the languages. The film is always shown subtitled in English, and my favorite segment was spoken in a language I don't understand at all (Finnish). ---Sluzzelin talk 15:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Have you tried using WP:CATSCAN? For example, try inserting "Category:English-language films" and "Category:French-language films", and out pops everything from The Dreamers to Bon Cop, Bad Cop. Of course, movies like these would typically be available with subtitles. When it comes to books, The Cantos by Ezra Pound springs to mind. Gabbe (talk) 19:08, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

I remember seeing in a bookstore a book of poems, all or some of which were composed of verses with different lines in different languages, and somehow succeeding in achieving both rhyme and rhythm (meter). I vaguely remember the example of one verse with a German line ending in Katze, an Italian line ending in -azze, a Latin line ending in -at se (the last part of a reflexive verb in non-standard word order), and two other lines, each in another language (possibly French and English). I did not buy the book, I do not remember the title of the book, and I do not remember the author or compiler of the book.

—Wavelength (talk) 21:05, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

There is a 1981 film "Les Uns et Les Autres", retitled as "Bolero", that I saw many years ago (and would like to see again.) I think it was multilingual; after all this time I am not sure. Wanderer57 (talk) 22:49, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

On IMDB, I found a review saying the film is in French, English, German and Russian. As I mentioned, I'd like to see it again. So far, I have not found it on DVD or tape. Wanderer57 (talk) 15:23, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

See Biblical languages. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:07, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The OP said s/he wasn't just looking for works that have been translated... rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The Bible was multilingual before translation.--Wavelength (talk) 23:21, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

The play Balconville by David Fennario has sections in both English and French, and assumes a working knowledge of both languages. Bielle (talk) 03:20, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

One of my favorite tv shows "Red Band" (רד בנד) is filmed with an English speaking protaganist and a Hebrew speaking cast. You can enjoy the lewd humor in English, or in Hebrew, or (Ideally) in both :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6Kds8yw2MU&playnext=1&list=PLDF8D116FD114C7A5

Aas217 (talk) 03:44, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Bollywood in general excels at multilingual films; the degree of codeswitching and Hinglish is impressive. Latin and Greek were prominently sprinkled through many "serious" books before WWII (e.g. essays, history), and novels as well pre-WWI. By way of contrast, and as it is approaching Easter, I'll mention the film Jesus of Montreal, which begins with a scene in which some sporadically employed actors are dubbing a porn film from English into French; not much is lost in translation. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:53, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

That's a good point. Even outside of Bollywood, I've noticed other Indian films have a lot of codeswitching. For example, off the top of my head, Life in a Metro switches all the time between (at least) Hindi and English. rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

There are some pop music songs that have verses in multiple languages, I've heard at least English with French and English with Hungarian, and I seem to remember there are some in Spanish with English.

There are also mathematics and science journals from the sixties that mix articles in English, German, Russian and French, but in this case each article is written in a single language and is understandable alone. In any case, reading mathematical articles in all these languages is much easier than reading literature, because the vocabulary used is very small (though I personally have not needed to learn mathematical terminology yet in any of German, Russian or French). – b_jonas 18:29, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

More Japanese help

What is the title of http://www.oakgov.com/globaloakland/assets/docs/Adv_Oak_Jpn.pdf ? The English version uses the title "Advantage Oakland" - I can get the katakana, but I do not know what the kanji is WhisperToMe (talk) 04:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

オークランドの魅力. 魅力/みりょく/miryoku can be translated as attraction or [1]. Oda Mari (talk) 04:36, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you so much :) WhisperToMe (talk) 06:02, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

languages translation on left column listing

Hello is it possible to have the english name of the language highlight the actual language listed in the left column to help with translation ?

thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.91.241.178 (talk) 16:24, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

If you can't read the word, then how could you help with translation? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:49, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

What I think this person is asking is whether Wikipedia could have the English name of the languages listed in the left column pop up when the user places his/her cursor over those language names. In response, I'd say that the primary purpose of those language names is to help people who can read those languages to find related content in those languages. As such, there is no need for the English name of the languages. Still, perhaps such a function could be programmed to satisfy curious users who can't read those languages. You might ask at the Help Desk about that. Marco polo (talk) 22:47, 13 April 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary has MediaWiki:Gadget-WiktSidebarTranslation.js which calls MediaWiki:langcode2name.js- I don't know if anything like this has been implemented on Wikipedia. Nadando (talk) 00:06, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, if you hover over it, you get a "hint" in the URL prefix:

العربية - ar - Arabic (or should I say cibarA)

Español - es - Spanish

Français - fr - French

עברית - he - werbeH (Hebrew)

Basa Jawa - jv - Javanese

Magyar - hu - Hungarian

Nederlands - nl - Dutch

Suomi - fi - Finnish

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:17, 14 April 2011 (UTC)