Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 February 14

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February 14

Why have end dates on lists of office holders?

I'm not sure this is the best place to ask this, since it's kind of specifically about how to write articles, but ... why do we need end dates for office holders where the start/end date is always going to be the same, and there's no gaps? For example, let me pull from the List of Governors of Alabama:

Governor	Term in office
William Wyatt Bibb	December 14, 1819 – July 10, 1820
Thomas Bibb	July 10, 1820 – November 9, 1821
Israel Pickens	November 9, 1821 – November 25, 1825

Couldn't this just be easily condensed to...

Governor	Took office
William Wyatt Bibb	December 14, 1819
Thomas Bibb	July 10, 1820
Israel Pickens	November 9, 1821

... and not even mention when they left office? Because they obviously left office the moment their successor took office?

I mean, when there's a true gap in the governorships, it should rightly show an interregnum (as seen for Alabama from May 1, 1865, to June 21, 1865 - astute readers can probably guess why), so it's not needed for that. I could only see it needed in cases where

• Officeholders usually take office on a different day. Or, in other words: Outgoing leaves at 11:59pm, incoming starts at 12:00am. This is how New York does it, and I think it would be perfectly fine explaining in the text that the term starts at midnight.
• There are common gaps, but even in this case I'd rather there be an explicit note of an interregnum rather than forcing the reader to notice which end dates and start dates have gaps between them.

Thoughts? --Golbez (talk) 04:27, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't know about as a general rule, but it can be useful in some cases. If you copy a line out for your own purposes, you don't need to go back and find the end date. And if the table is sortable (not in this case, but it could be), the term end information can be lost if sorted in any manner other than date. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:34, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I dislike sorting lists, don't really see the point, but this is an excellent argument - as long as we do make lists sortable, I suppose each row's info should be self-contained. --Golbez (talk) 04:58, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

It just seems clearer to state the dates explicitly rather than have to make assumptions. StuRat (talk) 04:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Francis Funk

I am trying to find more information about a person named Francis Funk (other than the stuff I've already created for this article), who was a major and adjutant general in the Hawaiian Army, a sheriff, a lawyer and a member of the Hawaiian House of Representatives from 1851 to 1853. He could have been German or a German-American. All traces about him disappears after 1853 for some reason.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 10:49, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Maybe you'll get better results by using the search term "Franz Funk", his original name, though admittedly I can't find much. At any rate he seems to have been a Prussian. [1] [2] --Antiquary (talk) 11:56, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Who polices the police?

We hear activists echo this maxim all the time - "who polices the police"? Well, technically, who does? Let's use U.S.A. or U.K.-based police forces as an example. We know about internal affairs. However, what actual oversight is there when the people feel the police are being covered for?--WaltCip (talk) 13:46, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

This concern is long - standing - the Latin phrase is Quis custodet custodes. See Police Complaints Commission. 156.61.250.250 (talk) 13:59, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

The phrase is actually "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?", and we have an article on it. --Viennese Waltz 14:16, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, kind of silly that we've attributed to government oversight a phrase that was originally the ultimate in slut shaming. --Golbez (talk) 14:48, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

See Category:Police oversight organizations.—Wavelength (talk) 14:50, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• The general terminology for such an office or person to whom complaints about officials, such as police, are addressed is ombudsman. Many municipalities and police departments will have one. Their job is investigate such complaints. --Jayron32 14:53, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• Here in California, if a local police department is corrupt, the California Highway Patrol (our name for our state police) can investigate and, if needed, arrest them. A quick search shown no obvious oversight of the CHP (see [3] and [ petitions.moveon.org/sign/independent-civilian ]) but I suppose the FBI has the authority to investigate the CHP. But of course this just kicks the question upstairs; who polices the FBI? The CIA? The NSA? What recourse is there when a government agency is able to keep what it is doing secret? --Guy Macon (talk) 16:54, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• That, of course, is the key issue raised by Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?: At some point, there is no greater authority to check the authority for which you need to check. In a democracy, that greater authority is supposed to be "the people" who have a role in electing people like sheriffs, attorneys general, justice ministers, etc; and if they are corrupt or don't do their job, are supposed to be able to be voted out. --Jayron32 17:11, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

• If the police commit an actual crime (as opposed to mere incompetence, prejudice, etc.), then that can can go up to the next level of government, in some jurisdictions.

• The press can report on police misconduct, but that relies on them either being present when it occurs or finding witnesses who are willing to talk.

• Social media, combined with cell phone cameras, can now reveal police misconduct which occurs in public. In many cases the police will say a shooting was justified and there will be no investigation, until a cell phone video shows what happened, then all of a sudden they change their mind and launch an investigation.

• Police body cameras and dashboard cameras have the potential to reveal police misconduct, but only if the laws require the release of those videos under FOIA laws. Even then, there seems to be a pattern with police videos often being lost or unviewable when they seem likely to incriminate police officers. If the videos were sent, real-time, to a neutral party for storage, that would end this problem.

• Once the public knows about police misconduct, the democratic process can take over to correct it. Depending on the jurisdiction, the police commissioner/chief of police/sheriff may be elected directly, or appointed by the mayor, who is himself elected. So, voting one or both out of office has the potential to solve the problem.

• Note that this is ultimately a subset of the broader conflict of interest problem. StuRat (talk) 17:09, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Here in NL the "marechaussee" (military police) polices the police. Of course this differs per jurisdiction. Jahoe (talk) 20:16, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

(NL apparently means the Netherlands.) StuRat (talk) 23:18, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Correct. Sorry for that, I thought it would be clear. Jahoe (talk) 00:31, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

@Jahoe: That's OK. It was. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 06:02, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

• To give a couple of concrete examples from the UK: the South Yorkshire Police have been investigated various times in various ways, relating to crimes committed by its officers. One is the Battle of Orgreave, when SYP officers attacked a picket line during the Miner's Strike. This was investigated by the Independent Police Complaints Commission, which is the usual watcher-of-watchmen. One is the Hillsborough disaster, which was a crush caused by poor crowd control and subsequently covered up. This was finally investigated by a specially created body, the Hillsborough Independent Panel, since previous investigations were tainted by the close links between SYP chiefs and politicians. And one is misuse of a police helicopter to spy on people having sex. This was investigated by South Yorkshire Police themselves, because it was a relatively minor crime involving only a few officers. Finally, although not a crime, the force was investigated by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary for failing to protect victims of the Rotherham child sexual exploitation scandal properly. So those are some of the ways that the police in the UK are watched. Smurrayinchester 09:55, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

The problem with saying that the police are policed by the voters, the press, social media, etc. is that none of those entities can investigate a crime using the tools that even a one-person police department has. In particular, they cannot detain a person, ask a judge for a search warrant, etc. The voters, the press, social media, etc. can do certain things once it is known that a crime was committed and who did it, but only the police or something very much like the police can do a proper investigation when those are unknown. Which leaves us with our quandary once again; who polices the top-level police?

Possible answers:

• Gordon Sumner polices The Police
• Chief Inspector of Police Jean de Dieu Mayira polices the Police
• Sławomir Mrożek policed The Police
• The De Rigo brothers police Police
• Charlie Chaplin policed Police
• Maurice Pialat policed Police
• V. K. Prakash policed Police
• Roger Graef policed Police
• And of course Police, Police, Police, Police, Police, Police, Police, and Police are each policed by Police Police Departments (PPD).^{[Citation Needed]} --Guy Macon (talk) 22:27, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Kerman Airport

In what year did the Kerman Airport in Iran begin operating? M2545 (talk) 15:35, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

1970, according to the website of the airport: kerman.airport.ir. Omidinist (talk) 19:12, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! Credit here: [4]

Which US states are like this?

State roads: all 3 digits

County roads: all at least 4 digits

Do any such states have no intermetropolitan area Interstates or US routes over 99? No 3 digit federal routes at all? The last seems unlikely - loops, spurs and bypasses are everywhere. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:01, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

There is no state which meets your first condition, and I don't think there's any which meet your second either. There is a state with no signed federal routes — Alaska. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:16, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

There are "interstate" highways in Alaska, same as in Hawaii and Puerto Rico. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:26, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Correct, but none of them are signed as such. They're either signed with state highway numbers or not at all. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:33, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Here's the closest for you:

• No 3-digit U.S. Routes: Rhode Island (highest is U.S. 44), Hawaii (has no U.S. Routes), Alaska (has no U.S. Routes, except briefly when U.S. 97 was designated, but never signed).
• No 3-digit Interstate Routes: Alaska (no interstates are signed, though several are designated "on paper". None has 3 digits, however), New Mexico (highest is I-40), North Dakota (though a part of the Bismarck Expressway is designated, but unsigned, as I-194).
• State roads are all 3 digits: None, though Nevada comes closest as there are only two Nevada state routes which aren't 3-digits. One may also count the District of Columbia which has one numbered route, District of Columbia Route 295.
• County roads of 4+ digits: Probably none, though the county routing systems are haphazard across the U.S. at best. Signed 4-digit routes are rare. Some states have secondary route systems which are signed with 4 digits regularly. For example, the North Carolina Highway System has 4 digit secondary routes, which are sometimes marked with plain white rectangles. These secondary state routes recycle numbers between counties, but are not county routes but rather state routes. Texas also uses 4 digits on its Farm-to-market road system, but that is a secondary state routing system, not a county system.

Those are my best attempts at an answer. Since Wikipedia has a comprehensive coverage of every state highway system in the U.S., you can also peruse the articles yourself. --Jayron32 18:45, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a great answer. As an extremely urban non-driver I mistakenly thought the minor 4 digit roads were county roads. It's still a bit hierarchical in states with 4 digit secondary state roads but none have decided to segregate it so 1-2=federal 3=intermediate 4=minor apparently. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:06, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

No, each state manages its own road systems. The numbering of Interstates and U.S. routes is managed by the AASHTO, which is an organization of the states (not a Federal one, but of the states acting outside of the federal government) while state road numbering is handled by each state, on its own, with no coordination. Many states have no county road numbering systems, and of those that do, some allow counties to develop their own numbering and signage system with no interference from the state. The MUTCD is a publication encouraging uniform road signage, but with regards to numbering of state highways, the states basically ignore its guidelines. Generally, if a state has a system (and many do not, assigning route numbers haphazardly), lower numbered routes are historically more important longer-distance routes, while higher numbered routes tend to be shorter or more "back woods" sorts of routes. For some examples, in Massachusetts the longest state routes are routes like Massachusetts Route 2 and Massachusetts Route 9 and Massachusetts Route 28, low 1- and 2- digit numbers, while higher numbers like Massachusetts Route 213 and Route 286 (Massachusetts – New Hampshire) are short connector routes. You find similar patterns in Virginia (see List of primary state highways in Virginia) and List of state routes in New York, where most of the longest routes have low numbers. Some states, however, eschew even this logic. List of state routes in New Hampshire shows little rhyme or reason as to length, List of Maryland state highways shows that most state numbered highways are fantastically short, and route numbers are assigned mostly by geographic location rather than length. You are, however, correct that for the most part, 4-digit routes (where they are used) tend to be minor roads. Unless they aren't: until fairly recently the Fairfax County Parkway (formerly VA 7100) and the Prince William Parkway (Formerly VA 3000) were major regional arterial roads with 4-digit numbers. Virginia recently realized the folly of this and upgraded the roads to Primary Road status, granting them shiny new low 3-digit numbers. --Jayron32 03:40, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Touching on Virginia, see Byrd Road Act; all public roads in 93 of our 95 counties, outside of some towns, are state-maintained, so they're all technical state highways, but 1-599 are primary highways with unique-statewide numbers, while 600 and larger are secondary roads with numbers that can be re-used in every county, and since more-populous counties have lots of roads, numbers can often get into the four digits in those counties. Roads in the latter category aren't maintained at anything close to equal levels; last week, when I took Sharon Springs Road, VA 623 in Tazewell County connecting Burke's Garden to Ceres (location 37°4′12″N 81°18′38″W), I found it to be a slightly-gravelled muddy route with rock outcrops (often small boulders a few feet long and a few inches high) and tons of shallow mud-or-water holes (in one of which I nearly got stuck), while a few miles north, the section of VA 623 that's the main route into Burke's Garden is a good two-lane asphalt road with lane markings everywhere and guardrails when appropriate. Nyttend (talk) 23:35, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

I think there are 5-digit roads in Fairfax County, this blog indicates the highest numbers to be over 10000. --Jayron32 19:55, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

PS, Sagittarian Milky Way, Kentucky is a little closer than is Virginia to what you were imagining. Most of their roads are county- or city-maintained (all KY municipalities are cities), but they have a very large number of state highways, and while many of the four-digit highways are minor (extreme example image), you'll see from List of primary state highways in Kentucky that some low-numbered roads, such as Kentucky Route 5, have no sections with primary status, while highways with some primary-status sections have numbers as high as 3155. Nyttend (talk) 23:41, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

HMRC mileage rate

How is the HMRC mileage rate of 45p per mile calculated? It's vastly more than petrol costs, so what else is it designed to take into account? Amisom (talk) 19:30, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Among other likely sources: Car insurance, depreciation of car value, and maintenance costs. [5] --Golbez (talk) 20:03, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

It is based on calculations of the average cost of running a car - this link will give you more numbers than you could possibly need about that. https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/117861/response/291930/attach/html/4/120106%20Analysis%20of%20motoring%20costs2.xls.html Wymspen (talk) 16:59, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Did the fascists officially prohibit International Women's Day?

According to the German Wikipedia page, International Women's Day was prohibited under Fascist Germany, but there’s no visible source for this.

Can anybody cite this? — (((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 20:10, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I can't find a specific citation user:Romanophile, but it seems to me rather self evident. International Women's Day was first promulgated by Clara Zetkin, "a German Marxist", a member of the far-left Spartacus League and a member of the Presidium of the Communist International. Although holding a seat in the Reichstag, she spent much of the 1920s in the Soviet Union where Women's Day was officially adopted.[6] Not really the sort of thing that the Nazis were going to encourage. For the Nazi view of women in society, see Women in Nazi Germany. Alansplodge (talk) 17:42, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

I’m surprised to see a Wikipedian take this stance. Seems like the (unwritten) rule is that no matter how probable something is, it needs a citation. — (((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 18:47, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Well, Wikipedia:You don't need to cite that the sky is blue. I did have a very good search for online sources, but drew a blank. Perhaps we can take the statement out altogether; after all, nobody felt the need to say that the Nazis didn't celebrate International Workers' Day which has very similar origins. Alansplodge (talk) 00:28, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

English translation for دبیرستان ایرانشهر کرمان?

What is the English language name of the Iranian school دبیرستان ایرانشهر کرمان? -- M2545 (talk) 20:19, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Using Google Chrome's auto-translation service for the article at fa.wikipedia.org for the above school, (See [7] ) suggests "Kerman High School Iranshahr" as a likely translation. However, you may want to ping a Farsi speaker for confirmation. Category:User fa lists English Wikipedia users who self-identify as Farsi speakers as well. --Jayron32 20:26, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the info. How does one "ping a Farsi speaker"? -- M2545 (talk) 20:38, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

He's suggesting you contact people on that list, but before you do so, you might want to keep in mind that the real meaning of "User:fa" is that someone is willing and able to answer questions in Farsi, which is not always the same as being willing or able to answer questions about Farsi.

However, User:Omidinist seems to knows a lot about Farsi, and formerly frequented this ref desk page, so you might ask him... AnonMoos (talk) 02:12, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

The English translation of the name of that high school in the city of Kerman would be: Iranshahr High School of Kerman. Omidinist (talk) 04:48, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! Credit here: [8] -- M2545 (talk) 14:12, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Does Florida's terroir prevent getting close to fine Cuban cigar tobacco quality?

Is it too alkaline or cold or..? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:18, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

I never heard that Florida was a big commercial tobacco-growing state. Instead, it's states like North Carolina and Kentucky... AnonMoos (talk) 02:25, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

North Carolina and Kentucky primarily grow cigarette tobacco. American tobacco intended for use in premium cigars is grown chiefly in New England. See Connecticut shade tobacco. --Jayron32 03:22, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

So if they do it in New England then maybe Florida's soil ph, mineral content etc. isn't good for that despite being closer to Cuba in climate? Why don't the states between Maryland and Connecticut grow much tobacco? Soil? Competition from slave states preventing a tradition of tobacco growing from continuing to the present day? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 08:08, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article titled Cultivation of tobacco, but it does not discuss soil conditions. I did find This old pamphlet which discusses soil conditions suitable for each type of tobacco, and where specifically in Connecticut it is found. That pamphlet has a LOT of good information, which could likely be useful to expanding Wikipedia's coverage. It should be noted that it isn't strictly true that Tobacco is only grown in New England and south of the Mason-Dixon. It is most associated with those areas, but I have found information on tobacco farming in Upstate New York and Pennsylvania Amish Country. New Jersey doesn't seem to have any native tobacco industry, excepting a few blogs written by hobbyists trying to grow it on a very small scale. Maryland, Virginia, the Carolinas and Georgia are all well known for growing the crop; part of that may be historical: Tobacco plantations in the 1700s and 1800s were supported by slave labor, so there grew a tradition of tobacco farming that wasn't as prevalent up north. It may be (though I am now just speculating) that tobacco could be grown in New Jersey, but it hasn't ever been, so it still isn't. --Jayron32 13:06, 15 February 2017 (UTC)