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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of X-Men video games/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 00:09, 11 January 2011 [1].

List of X-Men video games edit

List of X-Men video games (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Guyinblack25 talk, Nomader, and -5-

Not sure what else to say other than that I believe that the list meets the Featured list criteria. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:33, 2 November 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Also, for tracking purposes, I am co-nominating this article with User:Nomader and User:-5- who helped improve the list to its current form. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:51, 3 November 2010 (UTC))[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 08:40, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments
  • A one-para lead is inadequate for a list of this length.
  • Is there a good reason for the video game title to be (1) big (2) bold (3) italicised? I'm sure the answer will be "that's what the template does", if so, transfer my question to "why does the template do this to game titles"?
  • "an eponymous comic book series, The X-Men" if it's eponymous, you don't need to repeat the name, just pipelink "eponymous comic book series" (or similar).
  • Your lead avoids the cancelled 1985 effort.
  • You link superhero, is there an equivalent for super villain?
  • Lead image caption doesn't need a full stop.
  • "Release years by system:" for "Arcade" is there a good link to "arcade machine" or something similar?
  • Sometimes X-Men is in italics. Mostly it's not. Why?
  • Xbox isn't linked.
  • Nor Xbox 360.
  • Nor Wii.
  • If you had proposed system release in the first one which was cancelled, why not the same for those which are yet to be released?

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I addressed your comments except the ones related to the template: title formatting and "proposed system release".
  • I did not create the template ({{VGtitle}}) so I don't know the original reason. However, I've worked on the template extensively and can guess. The title is not bold, that is just how the font looks at that size, which is 125% of the default font size. As to why it is that size, I can only guess it was to make it stand out more. The template creates an html-anchor, so the increased size can mimic a heading. The title is italicized because WP:ITALICS says to do so for creative works like video games.
  • Currently the template does not support something for future games, but I think I could work it in there.
I'm a bit rusty on template code, so if you could I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know if these are deal breakers, and if so, what exactly you'd like changed. Like decreased font size and "proposed system release" for future games? (Guyinblack25 talk 20:10, 5 November 2010 (UTC))[reply]

; Comment from RexxS: The template {{VGtitle}} creates a separate table for each entry. I count 38 tables in the list. None of the tables have either column or row headers, so the "list" would not be easy for a visually-impaired reader to navigate using a screen reader, other than entry-by-entry. Although I would wish that our best lists were more fully accessible, I don't think it would make sense at present to object to this candidate, simply on the grounds of accessibility. There really needs to be a wholescale review of templates such as {{VGtitle}}, and (in my humble opinion) this is properly a task for Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games and/or Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics. --RexxS (talk) 20:35, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RexxS, if you leave me a note on my talk page outlining your concerns, I'll bring them up at the VG project. Standardizing the format of our lists has been a point of contention for a while now and some guidelines to adhere to could get the ball rolling in the proper direction.
This particular template could be possibly retooled to a different format, or retired if need be. But I've sure a solution can be worked out down the road. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:09, 5 November 2010 (UTC))[reply]
I created new templates that emulate the table format: {{Video game titles}} and {{Video game titles/item}}. The first is a basic table frame and the second is the syntax for the table rows, resulting in a single table rather a stack of multiple ones. Let me know if there's anything else. (Guyinblack25 talk 20:47, 4 January 2011 (UTC))[reply]
Apologies for not revisiting sooner, but I'm pleased that my concerns about multiple tables has now been resolved with the creation of the new templates. I can see it's taken some work, but it will allow future articles from the project to more accessible, and the effort is commendable. In other cases I'd recommend the incorporation of column and row headers to further improve accessibility, but where there are only two columns as in this case, I don't think there's much to be gained. I've struck my original comments to indicate they are resolved, and I can see nothing from an accessibility point of view that should prevent promotion. --RexxS (talk) 21:49, 4 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Have TRM and RexxS been asked to revisit? Dabomb87 (talk) 22:48, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I dropped a note just now at TRM's page-- sorry, I haven't been around Wikipedia lately, college has been getting the best of me. I haven't left one at RexxS's page though, I felt like his comment was more aimed at redoing the entire table format for the video game lists than any objections to this particular one. I might drop a line at WT:VG myself if I get the chance about changing up the table format though. Nomader (Talk) 23:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - I have concerns over the template used, it seems to violate MOS:BOLD. Afro (Don't Call Me Shirley) 23:11, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I first thought it was because the font size was larger, but after looking at the template code I realize that I misinformed The Rambling Man above. I removed the bold from the title. Sorry about the confusion. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:50, 6 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
  • You reference some system releases (examples "X-Men: Wolverine's Rage" and "X2: Wolverine's Revenge") but you don't reference other systems releases (such as "X-Men vs. Street Fighter" and "X-Men: The Ravages of Apocalypse"), any specific reasons why these aren't referenced? Also another question about the notes, you reference some notes regarding the genre of video games (example all of the Wolverine games) but you don't reference most of the genres for the X-Men games and Related games why is this? Afro (Talk) 03:39, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do that to cut down on the number of citations. Everything in the list should be in the references provided, but if one citation can cover multiple bullet points then I try to cut down on redundancy. For example, the genre info for X-Men vs. Street Fighter is in the same reference as the heroes and villains content. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
  • Quick comments –
    • There's a typo in the developer of X-Men II: The Fall of the Mutants. It should be Paragon Software, not Paragron.
    • In the see also note, "a recreational animation software" doesn't feel complete to me. I know it's an afterthought, but standards should be maintained throughout. Should it be "a piece of recreational animation software", or perhaps "a recreation animation software package" (what's it's called in the linked article)? Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:36, 9 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I changed the list per your concerns. Nomader (Talk) 00:11, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Would like to see a more developed and informative lead. The current one is lacking--AlastorMoody (talk) 16:18, 12 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm loathe to padding the lead just to make it longer when it doesn't need it-- do you have any details in particular that you think need to be added? Nomader (Talk) 03:47, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I agree with Nomader, mainly because I can't think of what else to add. If you have a specific suggestion, we can look into it. But as it stands, the lead summarizes the list and goes into some notable details. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:10, 13 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
  • Comment: The template {{VGtitle}} now supports a parameter for future games, per The Rambling Man's comments. Plans are also in motion to address the accessibility issue brought up by RexxS. (Guyinblack25 talk 16:23, 16 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
Resolved comments from GreatOrangePumpkin (talk · contribs)
  • Comments:
    • 2000 – Game Boy Color, PlayStation[26][5] ref "5" ahead of "26"
    • Why is gamestop so much linked (in the reference section)?-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 11:40, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I switched the ref order per your comment. GameSpot's considered a reliable source by WP:VG, so we use it often to source release dates. They have a pretty comprehensible database-- it's one of the better ones out there and it has a lot of games listed there which may not be listed on other websites. I prefer consistency in my lists, and I feel that using the same site to verify the release dates of all of the items is usually preferable. Nomader (Talk) 12:51, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, no. I meant why there are so much internal links to gamespot? I think one is ok. Cheers.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 13:59, 18 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I normally add internal links to every ref because I can't predict which citation a reader might look into. If you think it's a bad idea, I can remove them. But I think it's useful. (Guyinblack25 talk 23:49, 18 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
            • Only the gamespot as publisher in the first in-line citation should be interwiki-linked. All others not. That will be ''<ref name="GS-Uncanny">{{cite web| url = http://www.gamespot.com/nes/action/xmen/similar.html?mode=versions| title = The Uncanny X-Men Release Summary| publisher = GameSpot| accessdate = 2010-06-29}}</ref> |release= 1989 – [[Nintendo Entertainment System]]'' this one. This must be wikilinked, all others not.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 08:49, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • SupportNearly Support: I see no issues.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 19:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC) Sorry to change my opinion, but a few publishers are wrong. The publisher of all refs with the publisher "GameSpot" are not correct. It is a work, not a publisher; the publisher is "CBS Interactive Inc.", seen at the bottom of the site. The publisher of GameFAQs is "CBS Interactive Inc.", GameFAQs is the work. The publisher of Gamasutra is "UBM TechWeb", this is the work. Allmusic's publisher is "Rovi Corporation", this is the work. The publisher of gamedaily is "AOL Inc.", this is the work. The publisher of marvelultimatealliance is "Marvel", the work is the page. The publisher for wii.gamespy is "IGN" not "THQ". uk.ps3.ign.com is "IGN" not "THQ". publisher=[[1UP.com]] -> work=[[1UP.com]]. Regards.-- ♫Greatorangepumpkin♫ T 13:22, 21 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The VG Wikiproject has debated this before but did not reach any consensus. Our magazine citations are treated as you described, but the documentation for Template:Cite web previously left room for debate as to which parameter should be used. And it looks like the discussion at Template talk:Cite web didn't find a definite resolution.
      Dabomb87- I posted a note at VG project talk page. May I have some time for input from project members? Or is there another discussion that demonstrates a more definitive consensus? (Guyinblack25 talk 15:40, 21 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
      • To chime in on the above, GreatOrange, I've generally used "publisher" for the website itself. As Guy mentions {{cite web}} has never been good at clarifying, and in the case of almost every website the owner isn't that germane to the degree of, say, a book publisher. As long as they're all consistently formatted thus, I don't see an issue with WP:WIAFA (especially as the templates don't actually explicitly output "publisher" when you render it.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comments
  • Why does the canceled "Questprobe featuring The X-Men" get its own section, but the canceled "X-Women" get a brief mention?
  • I think the list would look better if you broke up the Notes sections into better labels such as "Genre", "Publisher", etc. The naming of characters and plotlines also seems arbitrary, and needs to be consistent throughout the list. Ωphois 18:05, 26 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I addressed the X-Women game by making a section for the two canceled games.
    • The content in the notes is somewhat arbitrary because it is based on the most notable information that turned up during research. Also, the template uses a generic notes section because it was designed for series of games that share information like genre, developer, publisher, etc. (For example, List of Space Invaders video games and List of Wario video games) However, this group of games seems to break that rationale, so I will try to include consistent information like the genre and developer/publisher. Character and plot info might be another story as reliable sources don't always go into such game details. I will add what I can though.
      FYI- Because of the holidays, I have inconsistent access to the internet, and I will try to get to this in a timely manner. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:53, 29 December 2010 (UTC))[reply]
      • I tweaked the notes. I hope it is to your satisfaction. (Guyinblack25 talk 18:44, 3 January 2011 (UTC))[reply]
Resolved comments from Wizardman Operation Big Bear 16:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
*Comments: I have to admit that I have concerns about how the table is currently. Are most VG Featured lists like that and I've just never noticed, or is this the preferred version? It's hard to get used to, but I can look past it. Will do a full review once this is answered. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 01:18, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yep, this is how most of them are (i.e. List of Donkey Kong video games, List of Final Fantasy video games, and List of Space Invaders video games), although system lists use a more traditional format (i.e. List of Nintendo 64 games). With the way video game releases and re-releases occur over a number of different platforms, this format really is the most efficient way to list out games. A traditional table would have problems for games like Donkey Kong (video game) which have been released over fifteen times-- the cells would stretch and it wouldn't be properly sortable. The VGtitle template allows us to list all releases and add any notes as necessary, and although it seems as though the accessibility problem has been addressed, we're always open to more comments on how we can improve the format. Nomader (Talk) 04:43, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds fine. Here are my issues:
  • "the first such game was the 1991 Wolverine." I'd say 'the first was the 1991 game..' sounds better, a bit odd as worded now.
  • "Action video game developed and published by LJN" LJN (shudder) should be linked.
  • In the Uncanny X-Men above (and elsewhere), you can link the characters, but that could be considered overlinking so I'll leave that up to you.
  • Anything on why a lot of Japan releases were after North American ones? Probably not, but that was very interesting, since usually it's the other way around.
This list is good otherwise; once these are addressed I'll support. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 18:19, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I made the edits per your comments above. In response to your question, I guess because the characters might be more popular in North America and the developer thought it would be best to fast track on an English version. It's rare for a Japanese developer, but not unheard of: Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater. (Guyinblack25 talk 15:53, 10 January 2011 (UTC))[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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